RE: JR Challenge 2005
 

Final results

http://www.members.aol.com/akane9280...nalresults.xls

RE: JR Challenge 2005
 

Blind man's bluff. This was a real experience. I've got mixed feelings about it. I think it was innovative, I think it added a unique dimension to the competition. I think it was challenging... more challenging than I thought it would be. When you exit the closed-off tent full of flyers, and the bright sunshine causes you to squint, its really a strange feeling. The only other thing that could add more to the effect would be to blind fold the pilot until you he is in the pilots box, spinning around 3 times before removing the blind fold. Just like pin the tail on the...never mind.

After quietly walking to the flight line and preparing the plane to start, Andy asked, "are you next" I said, I don't know, that is what I was told, I'm blind, and bluffed". "Start your engine and prepare to take off". "Which way do I enter the box?" "Enter the box from the right at box altititude". "What do you mean box altitude? Low, medium or high box?" "Normal box altitude, that would be low". Now I was beginning to feel a bit like I was playing the game Clue.

"After you take off, I will tell you what the first maneuver is". "OK". I take off, knowing nothing... knowing nothing... OK, now you know the feeling I had at that moment. As I'm flying my downwind to get lined up for the turnaround and entry into the box, the first maneuver is called. "The first maneuver is a hammerhead". "A hammerhead?" "Yes, a hammerhead". Can you tell me where.. is it in the center of the box or on.." "In the center". "just a hammer head?" "no, there are components up and components down". "Well, what are they!" (by this time I'm just about turned around and am thinking.. come on!!!". "One and one half positive snaps up, and one and one half rolls down" "What!" "Do you want me to read it over to you or tell you by just the numbers" (as I am entering the box) "by the numbers". Now, I have about 2 seconds to figure out which direction to snap, what the orientation of the plane is going to look like on the far end of that snap and a half, which way to hammerhead (remember the plane is now turned around after the 1 1/2 snap) and which way the orientation is before exit (exit inverted). Clicked on high rate, snapped to the right. Way too deep. No over-rotation, but the heading was off about 20 degrees. Correct with rudder (Thank you pattern flying skills). Do the one and one half roll, exit inverted. "NEXT!" (from memory, don't know if its right) "Humpty bump, negative snap up, nothing down". Got through that one ok. Loop, with two positive snaps at the top (or something like that). This was a bit shaky, but it looked presentable, I'd give myself a 7 on it. "Sharks tooth" Pull 45 degrees, do some kind of a roll (I think it was a 2 point roll) and a negative snap on the down line. Now, I pushed it out to the end of the zone, when he said sharks tooth, but it was actually a reverse sharks tooth. So the maneuver was called wrong. I did not dare say anthing. I wanted him to call it the same way for the rest of the pilots. No problem, it still looked pretty good, albiet a bit far to the right. The snap was right on, exit was level, maneuver was smooth. Something in the middle..."Teardrop with four point roll on the 45 degree line". Ok. Nothing on the down line. OK. Done. "Next" Half square loop with two point roll. Done. The last two manevuers looked really good. It felt like 8's or 9's on them. "Next maneuver is a figure 9, and make sure you exit high" One turn spin to enter. WHOOOO. Slow the plane down. Spin complete. 3/4 outside loop with a negative snap a the top of the loop. "what do you mean top of the loop?" (a figure 9 really does not have a loop per-se, its really a snap at the end of the 3/4 loop, not the top of the loop. "do a negative snap at the top of the loop". I do the 3/4 loop, and negative snap. It over-rotates about 20 degrees and looses pitch heading by about 10 degrees. (Everyone but Mark, and eithter Barron or David, did this).

Rolling circle, (I think it was two rolls to the inside)... done. Next maneuver, half outside loop with 1 1/2 snaps at the bottom. I'm thinking, why did he ask me to go so high? Any case, clicked high rate, looped, snapped. I nailed it, should have gotten about a 9 or 10. Exit box.

When Andy said "good job, Don" I sensed two things. First, I think I got through it correctly, and second, I had the sinking sense that Andy was relieved that it could be flown through (a lot of people missed the first maneuver).

What did I learn? A few things. Part of the preparation for an unknown sequence is positioning of maneuvers. The blind man's bluff makes this somewhat difficult to plan for.

Another thing I learned. I watched David Moser fly the first maneuver significantly off set. Now, I'm thinking, why would he off set this by the extent that he did? I would not have done that, not knowing what is the next maneuver (270 rolling circle for example). By coincidence, (If I remember right) the humtpy worked perfectly for this. So for the blind man's bluff, one has to ask the caller for the next two maneuvers (if you can think that far ahead) in order to position the one you are about to fly.

The second thing I learned, related to what is stated above, is that David offsetting the hammerhead from center allowed him (and the judges) to better see the maneuver. It also made it easier to fly for that same reason. I've got those darned TOC rules burned into my head (centering center maneuvers on the center "pole"). The Zoneless box, if a pilot works it, can be a great advantage to flying unknowns, and in particular the blind mans bluff. I personally have got too much of that pattern stuff in my blood- the disciplined geometry and positioning thing. Where if even a quarter of a roll segment is like, 2 or 3 meters off center, its a point off. Anyhow, my thoughts.

RE: JR Challenge 2005
 

Don,
Thanks for the detailed report - pretty much how I felt, but for Sportsman if you just flew big and did a Right - Center - and Left box manuvers it flowed well. Pretty simple manuvers though, Slow Roll, Humpty, Loop, Sharks tooth - No spins and no elements in addition to the manuvers.

Jemo,
Got the vidieo to work now, Alex great job - thanks!
RickP

RE: JR Challenge 2005
 

Personally, I like centering. It is a skill that will be lost with the zoneless box.

I enjoyed the Blind Man's Bluff. Maybe because I was calling. I was lucky, I was calling the Sportsman unknown, which was fairly easy to call. Having had something to do with the sequence creation, the task was to design a class legal sequence at about 70% of the K value. Because the pilots didn't know what was coming, this took care of the added pucker factor. The pilots flew the sequence well for the most part, but no one got all 10s.

My opening instruction was that the first figure was a center figure and when ready, the pilot should enter the box at a base height with which they felt comfortable. The funny thing was that all classes had people making the same mistake, regardless of what they were told to do, they did what they had been doing with the known. For example, Sportsman had a humpty with a half roll on the upline. The Sportsman known sequence has a cross-box humpty with a half roll. Many pilots flew the half roll, even though I was careful to call a full roll. In fact, I usually repeated the roll element once they entered the upline, just to be sure they knew what to do.

But everyone flew really big. I doubt anyone didn't bust the box repeatedly. The tightest sequence I saw was flown by Paul Sandys. But overall, figures were much too large and lines far too long.


Barry

RE: JR Challenge 2005
 

I think the event was the absolute best run event I have attended. It was like clockwork... even the full scale demos on Sunday seemed all timed perfectly.

RE: JR Challenge 2005
 

Alex how come you dumped the video of Mark flying the Yak??

Randy

RE: JR Challenge 2005
 

don,

did you get a zero for the manuever you said was called wrong??

thanks,
tony

RE: JR Challenge 2005
 

From what I have seen on the IMAC list there are some that were upset with where he was hovering.

RE: JR Challenge 2005
 

Blind man's bluff- zero'd the maneuver? Not as far as I could tell, but Andy did not want the pilots discussing such with Judges after competition flights. He did say in the judges tent when someone asked what if a maneuver is called wrong... he said "you will never know", which drew quite a bit of "nervous" laughter from the pilots, myself included. Based on Andy's response of "good job" after the flight, I think I did ok. After thinking about it some more, one could consider this manever "sharks tooth" called correctly, I'm just used to the 45 degree part first being called a reverse sharks tooth. Maybe its just from my pattern days, 'reverse cuban 8', etc.

This Blind Mans Bluff really worked out ok. Its just different having someone you're not used to call the maneuvers... you're not used to. Its all about listening, and thinking quick. I have really improved my listening skills over the past 2 or 3 years. I can remember a hymn number announced as I'm standing up in church- by the time stand up and start paging though I realize that I can still get to that correct hymn without asking the person next to me. Also, my relationship with my wife is very good. I think it may be in part to improved listening skills. See, bet you did not know listening skills for your wife could help with IMAC flying! Any case, I listened carefully when Andy was calling the maneuvers, which greatly helped figure out what to do next during each maneuver.

RE: JR Challenge 2005
 

Heres a link to the video.

http://www.copperheadaviation.com/Vi...RChallenge.wmv

RE: JR Challenge 2005
 

the video link asks for a password.

tony

RE: JR Challenge 2005
 

Is this the video that's been under debate?

RE: JR Challenge 2005
 

I tried it about 3 hours ago and it did not ask. Now it does.

RE: JR Challenge 2005
 

I downloaded the video to my computer this morning to watch it myself. The video is made up of pieces made through out the evening after the contest. I clearly shows the pilot hovering ground level in the pits near cars and with people there watching him and others that are off a bit and not part of the crowd. To me it doesn't seem like a very smart thing to bring a plane that close to anyone. Especially flying in in the pits with people and cars around. If something happened it could have damaged someones vehical or worse yet killed someone. He and the contest would have been on the hook for all damages. AMA wouldn't cover him or the event with insurance. Be interesting to see if the AMA or the IMAC SIG step in and say or do anything.

RE: JR Challenge 2005
 

How about the Foamy's? This is fairly common.

RE: JR Challenge 2005
 

nothing with the foamies... I have read a few Yahoo Group threads about Leseburg's run through the pits. A few people are out to crucify him making comments about revoking his AMA membership and how they "have the damaging evidence from the video". I was there at the time driving out with my car. I remember making the comment like "Well that's not exactly safe" but in the same token most were gone and the people that lingered were well aware of what was going on. To be honest I am more afraid of the people at my own field especially since I had one guy skip his Laser 200 with a Zenoah off the roof of my car and then slam into an SUV. I was 10ft away when that happened, but I could have been 3 ft off Leseburg and felt safer.

Is what he did safe? No... which is why the AMA has certain rules, but if you weren't there at the time to actually witness it you can't pass judgements from some guy that was crazy enough to hold his video camera inches off the plane. You would have had to have been there to get a better sense of the situation. I look at it like I do TV programs... if I don't agree with the content said I change the channel. If you felt unsafe at the field... leave. This can go on to be a huge debate about "what if" and how "if" something did happen how any damage be it medical or property, is a huge drain on society. But to a degree I believe this all falls under the category of "natural selection". Is the guy not wearing his helmet while riding a motorcycle going to die... maybe. Is one of Leseburg's antics going to put someone in the hospital... maybe. But that's also why I appreciate the free will and choices we have in this country cause I don't want someone telling me which way I have to take off and which "racetrack pattern" I have to fly. I didn't stick around. Others did. But when you were 21 think about all the stupid stuff you did too. And if I hurt myself be it on a motorcycle, or flying a plane, or with a chainsaw or whatever... don't feel sorry for me 'cause I would be the one stupid enough to have done it.

Hopefully this doesn't turn into this huge debate, but on a positive note... it was a very well run event by Andy Kane and a ton of fun and an even bigger learning experience. Congrats to the winners, and I hope to see you guys in Venice!

JP

RE: JR Challenge 2005
 

Here Here, Nicely Said!!

[sm=thumbup.gif]

[email protected]

RE: JR Challenge 2005
 

JP, the reason people are critical of things such as hovering in the pits is because we (those who fly GS aerobats and 3D) don't want to give the AMA any reason to pass on more rules about how we can fly. Examples such as this do not serve the GS and 3D community well.

RE: JR Challenge 2005
 

Well I agree in that we don't need a "black-eye" 'cause first time we hear of some 3-Der losing it and killing someone... that will be a dark day and you know rules will be implimented then. However, enforcing them is another issue. Now I'm not old by any means, but I remember the 70's and early 80's well. Back then you could "take it out back" and not worry about getting sued 'cause you made the guy chip a nail. I only wish it was that way today where people relied on good judgement. Are people just getting stupider so rules HAVE TO BE implimented?

I am sorry this whole thing is getting off topic, but this kind of thing really burns me up. So to say something nice... I am grateful to all the Unlimited pilots I got to interview and thank you for taking the time out with me. You can see my story and pics in a future issue of 3-D Flyer mag... I tried to do all you justice with coverage.

JP

RE: JR Challenge 2005
 

I just want to make certain I understand you. I am at a field for a contest and if after hours someone starts to do something that is patently unsafe and in open violation of both the AMA Safety Code and common sense, that it is MY responsibility to leave. But NOT the other guy's responsibility to cease and desist?? Is that what you really meant to say??

RE: JR Challenge 2005
 

What a bunch of whiners! 3D is so dangerous when in actuality there have never been any serious AMA incidents as the result of 3D flying.

Of course the risk of a plane traveling at 100 ft/sec within 25 ft of an unsuspecting human’s head (the other guy in the adjacent pilot box during takeoff?!) is acceptable, but a plane traveling at 0-5 ft/sec with everyone aware and watching posses an EXTREME DANGER!

Admit it, these guys are jealous of the kid’s skills and since they don’t have the time to develop their own skills they sit at the keyboard and type a bunch of garbage about how unsafe it is.

Get over it, or you’ll end up in a dying sport/hobby like curling, windsurfing, or tiddlywinks!

J. U.

RE: JR Challenge 2005
 

In fact, I don't know who is going to kill the hobby with absurd statements like this...

Come on, nobody is perfect. NOBODY can say that he NEVER makes a mistake...

150cc engines with 32" composite props ARE dangerous.

That must have been one heck of a show.

RE: JR Challenge 2005
 

Leseburg's freestyle was the best to be followed up by Chris Maier's IMOHO. And I am sure had there been more people after hours than the ones there during the "dangerous hovering", which I feel the only victims would have been some empty tents that couldn't jump out of the way, Leseburg would have never taken the risk.

As far leaving however, here's what could have been done had you had a problem with any of this... YES LEAVE! Cause I don't think I would want to be breaking someone's concentration in the middle of that. Then the next day pull that person over to the side and express how you feel about it. If after that there are still issues THEN maybe take actions to get whatever enforced. But at least this way you can stand tall and be a man instead of some of these guys I have seen chatting about it saying "we have the evidence" when in fact they were never there to begin with. And to boot, one of the guys on that Yahoo thread.. I did see him hover and it made me want to run for the hills.You can try to come up with some silly rule about hovering, but then to make it fair this would also have to apply to foamys, and that is just not going to happen.

Listen... I know people today are so quick to jump to conclusions, and it's just the nature in us that when you get a group of people it is hard for many to all agree. But I know that if we just all calm down and leave emotion out of this and just take that extra second to consider circumstances we might all have a different opinion and maybe not be so quick to chastise someone. (now be nice and no flames calling me a "hippie-tree-hugger") :D

JP

RE: JR Challenge 2005
 

These pilots are perfect and error free for the most part, but it only takes that one mistake to turn a good day into a bad day...After all the video showed proof how perfect a pilot he was, especially with the foamy. It was the tent that should not have been there when he hit it.. Just imagine that big composite blade catching it, now that would have been a show...

RE: JR Challenge 2005
 

Former pattern flyer, when an airplane is flying at a "100 feet per second" it is usually high enough that if a problem does happen the pilot can yell and warn others. If you are hovering an airplane in the pits at "0-5" feet per second it can still cut your head off. How old are you by the way? Those comments sound like those of a know it all teenager! If everyone thought like you this would be another dying sport like "curling and wind surfing" ! A lot of people have worked very hard to make this hobby what it is today, don't let it become a "dying sport/hobby"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Albert Santiago