Beginning plane - which engine?
 

Hello,
This is my first year flying planes. I've already gotten into pattern flying and love it, and have a Venus 40 and a Venus II in my hangar. I would love to have a nice 60-90 scale plane to fly IMAC as well, and am wondering what are some recommendations. I would be in the beginner's class, though could be capable of flying something like an Extra. I've got a couple of glow planes but wouldn't mind an electric too, so anything goes.

Thanks.

POLL EDITED!!!

I found two amazing deals on some 73" Yaks.
One is the QQ 73" Yak http://www.qqaircraft.com/planes.asp...&s_PLANE_CAT=c

Other is from Troy Built: http://troybuiltmodels.com/newsite/a..._yak54_73.html

They recommend a 26cc gas engine, and I was wondering if that would be enough, and if 45cc would be too much? I found some great info and reviews on the two engines above - reliable, powerful, and inexpensive.

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

In the basic class, you can fly just about anything you want. It doesn't have to be scale. The 3D Hobby Shop AJ Slick would work fine. When you start moving up to the higher classes though, you will want something bigger to be competitive. Bigger flies better. At least a 30% or bigger gas model. Also, sportsman and higher classes require scale models that are within 10% tolerances of actual scale. Basic is the only class that does not require this.

There are many manufacturers of good quality ARFs, Aeroworks, Wild Hare, Hanger 9, CompArf, Dietrick, QuiQue, Extreme Flight, etc.

You can get most of the IMAC information you need from here:

http://www.mini-iac.com

Good luck. It's a blast! :D

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

Hey gaRCfield...glad to see your interest in IMAC and improving your flying skills which flying IMAC will do for you! Smarks is basically right in that you can start with just about any entry in the basic or beginners rank BUT...as he also said the larger the aircraft the easier they are to fly.

I have several friends including myself involved in the IMAC fun and our basic entry plane when starting was a 25% or 1/4 scale Extra 260 running an OS 160 or the Aeroworks Yak 54 120 QB running an OS 160. These worked great and are an affordable plane to get you use to the eventual move you'll make into the "Gassers" of the 50cc class or larger if you stick to the IMAC blast.

What ever you choose or do, good luck, ask lots of questions, give yourself to the IMAC meets as a "scribe" so you can learn, and above all have lots of fun! :D

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

The AJSlick certainly deserves consideration, especially if you're interested in electric power. For a glow option, a bit larger but even more reasonably priced, have a look at the Seagull Extra 260 90-size, at http://www.hobbyzone.com/rc-planes-s...260-90-arf.htm.

There's no reason you couldn't fly a pattern model in IMAC Basic. However, if you want to broaden your perspective somewhat, a scale aerobat does introduce a learning curve with a bit different path. Of the scale aerobats, many consider the Extra 260 to be the most neutral of that class. For example, have a look at the TBM webpage on that subject: http://troybuiltmodels.com/newsite/a...extra_260.html

I haven't flown the Seagull, haven't even seen one that I'm aware of, so I'm not sure this particular model will fulfill all the promise of the Extra 260 design, and of course everything depends on a good set-up. But for the price, you could hardly go wrong.

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

Thanks guys. I know I could fly my Venus for my first year of IMAC, but I like flying toys and thought it would be nice to have a scale plane in my hangar, and there's something about electric planes that is pulling at me - and I thought I was 'only glow'!

So what's the difference between an Extra 260 and an Extra 330, etc. There's a BEAUTIFUL Extra 330 on the cover of Model Aviation, September 2008, which is probably the reason I'm in this forum right now;) No, it's definitely the reason. I keep telling myself to put the magazine away so I'm not tempted, but I can't. I want one. I'm sure you guys understand;)

Also, I can't read Aresti yet; for pattern there are transcriptions that I can read so I can compete - does this exist for IMAC too?

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

http://www.hiddenhangarrc.com/video/imac/

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

Hi gaRCfield! I'm just going to throw this out there for chits & giggles...you do know that the PL 330 your looking at on the cover of the new MA mag is a 40%, DA-170 powered gasser right? I'm also gonna tell you that other than a similarity in looks, that plane or any other 50cc or larger gasser won’t be like, fly like, or remotely even act like any electric plane you decide to get involved with. The bottom line here is Gas is Gas and Electric is whatever it is…the two aren’t even close with the exception of the sticks on your radio and maybe the looks. (from a distance) I just didn’t want you looking at a gasser plane with visions of granger and thinking you were really wanting to see it as electric. :D

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

gaRCfield,
I began IMAC with a Saito 100 Edge and it did fine in BASIC but soon I found that I was flying a lot more than before - practicing the sequences. The cost of nitro is much more than gas. I moved to a 1/3 scale Extra 260 with a 80cc gas engine, and that was a big step forward in my IMAC life. So I suggest a gas powered plane.... for BASIC and Sportsman it doesn't matter so much which model... what matters is that you practice a lot, especially on windy days because that's what you will likely being flying in at the contests.

Hawk

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

Great point Hawk and nicely said...we did a study on last year’s Southwest IMAC season on just that topic...the wind! We found, for whatever reason (mother nature), that 78% of all our IMAC events were held with average winds in excess of 12mph or more...and in some cases both days going into the 18-22mph category on a steady basis.

Bottom line…practice, practice, practice, then when you think you’ve had about enough…practice some more! You, your plane, and your scoring will love the results of your hard work and dedication! :D

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

I believe the main difference between the 260 and 330 is the 300 series are 2 seaters and the 260 is a single seat. It is also a bit smaller, but has the same engine as the 300. Patty Wagstaff flies this model. Check this out for a photo and a write up http://www.airbum.com/pireps/PirepExtra260.html

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

Grelker...The 300 and the 330 series planes all have single seat configurations also. Their designations are 300SP & 330SC. The 260's wing is 2' shorter than the 300 series planes coming in at 24'5" and the 300 series coming in at 26'3".

Here are a couple of links to the Extra Aircraft's websites...
[link=http://www.extraaircraft.com/ea300SP.asp]Extra's 300SP[/link]
[link=http://www.planepictures.net/netsearch4.cgi?srch=Extra%20330SC&stype=actype&srn g=2]Extra's 330SC[/link]

The 260 is actually a "retired" aircraft as far as their production goes. The 300SP and the brand new 330SC are Extra's competition entry flying planes right now.

And I honestly have to say...what magnificent planes they truly are! If in doubt...check out the "Red Bull" series races if you ever get the chance! If you’re into aerobatic airplanes, this series will definitely trip your trigger! :D

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

Actually I was trying to find out what that plane was, so thanks!

I know the pattern guys have heard this before, but I'm in college, sharing a small apartment, and driving a Civic. My 90 size Venus is the biggest thing I can handle (not quite 70" fuse), so while I know the bigger planes fly better, I'm in the market for smaller ones (maybe not as small as the link I posted above).

As far as electric, I thought I'd always be a glow guy, until I went to my first pattern meet. Electric motors and lipo batteries have plenty of power to tow around an 11lb, 6+ foot plane, so I thought I'd be fine on a smaller (60-90) plane. Either way I'll keep looking at different things. I like the extras, so I'll try to find the biggest one, and consider gas, glow, and electric Truthfully the bigger the plane I look at the less I want to shell out the money for batteries. Also, only being in the hobby for 4 months and only owning 3 engines so far, glow is probably the most appealing and familiar.

So recommendations for 90 size Extra?

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

I really don't have any suggestions for an IMAC entry in the 90 size as I have never looked at IMAC in that light..sorry. But I believe what ever you decide to do and or come up with to fly, if your heart for the sport is right, you'll do fine and have a lot of fun while your at it! :D

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

Maybe I need to check out a couple of meets first. If I can stop building my Venus and actually get some homework done I might be in New Hampshire this weekend;)

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

The priority list for you at this point should be…School first and flying second! I never thought I would ever catch myself saying to put anything before flying…but in your case with collage and all school comes first.

The logic behind my statement here is honestly justified in that if you get your schooling done first then when you’re finished you will be able to afford to fly all you want and build any plane you see fit with all the money you’ll make from your education! See how that works! (LOL) Sounds good any ways and it’s my story an I’m stickin to it…you hit the books now and you’ll still have a lot of time for fun as you go along!

Geeze, I’m sounding like a Dad or something here??? :D

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

Here are a couple of pix of my new H9 Sukhoi SU26MM IMAC plane. Just got it done a couple of weeks ago and have about 15 flights on it now...what a dream to fly! On landings it floats in just like a trainer...gotta luv it!

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

Here is a couple of pix of the real "Red Bull" Sukhoi's that my plane was modeled after...

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

Once you see what the 'models' are modeled after they look so much cooler! Nice plane you got there.

One of my pipe dreams is to design a plane for my thesis or something, and a step further would be to have a biofuel conversion engine towing it around (mechanical engineering major). With all the free time they leave you in the curriculum I doubt it will ever happen, but hey, you never know...

Anyway you're absolutely right - hopefully this degree will earn me a house with a room that's actually big enough to put a plane together (wing dings are just totally unavoidable at this point) and weekends off to fly my planes. And hopefully a pilot's license.


Back to the thread topic: I guess the recommendation is something at least 25% if not bigger. Extra, Edge, Sukhoi, Staudacher...any of these would be fine, and gas is the way to go for IMAC.

What about bipes? :D


...time to keep dreaming...

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

I personally have never seen bipes do IMAC. I'm not saying they can't...I've just never seen any compete or fly IMAC. Let me give you a couple of links to look at as a starting plane for IMAC Basic compitition that you can successfully compete with and won't kill your pocket book in the process.

I did the AeroWorks YAK 54 QB with an OS1.60 (glow) at first and a couple of my friends did the same thing. Craig started and did well with the Great Planes Extra 300s 1.60 running an OS 1.60 (glow)...Leon did the Great Planes Sukhoi 31 with the OS 1.60. (glow) all these planes work fine to get into the basic competition and learn with.

Here are the links...

[link=http://www.aero-works.net/store/detail.aspx?ID=288]AeroWorks YAK 54 QB 1.20[/link]

[link=http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXRXR1&P=0]GP Sukhoi 31[/link]

[link=http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXEUP9&P=0]GP Extra 300S[/link]

[link=http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXUM83&P=0]OS 1.60 Glow Engine [/link]

Again these all will get you going in IMAC Basic and will let you learn while competing and having fun! Check em out! [8D]

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

Ok, thanks a lot! The GP Extra and OS two stroke are right up my alley - and a reasonable purchase for my semi-annually treat yourself to a ridiculous new toy day in January;)

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

I will second the recommendation for the 160FX as power choice for a smaller size IMAC model; they're not too expensive, especially if you time the purchase right with the Tower Hobbies special deals. It's a popular choice for competition, lots of good recipes in the pattern world for setting it up with prop/fuel/exhaust/pump; strong, simple, reliable, great workhorse, good power/weight. However, when I say 'smaller' I mean something in the 72" wingspan range. There are a bunch of candidates to choose from in this size, not too expensive, including models from Sig, Great Planes, Goldberg, all products you can order through your local hobby shop to save the shipping cost. You could probably put one together with removable rudder to help it fit in your Civic. You would need removable wings though, not one-piece wings.

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

Are Katanas acceptable for IMAC higher levels?

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

Morning gaRCfield...As said before at the entry level or 'Basic' IMAC you can fly just about anythig you want. The game changes though as you get into the upper levels of IMAC. Since being involved with IMAC myself I have noticed that there are about 3 planes that dominate the IMAC compitition and at some meets I go to every year you will only see 2.

By far the overwhelming, most popular plane, no matter what size is the Extra Series planes in the 260 & 300's. Next are the YAK 54's . I have seen at some of the meets and getting more popular are my choice, the Sukhoi's. The other couple of planes I have see are the Katana and the Giles.

Now you have to understand what I'm basing my observations on...I live in the Phoenix Arizona area so I do the Southwest region IMAC's and in no way have I seen all of IMAC by any means. In my region is Arizona, New Mexico, California, Nevada, Utah, and Colorado with California being the largest area and holding many meets throughout the year.

Here are a couple of photos from this season to give you an idea of what you will see when attending a normal Southwest IMAC meet. Tell me what you notice in these pictures…

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

Awesome, thanks. Before I started this summer I didn't know planes like the Extra, Sukhoi, and Katana were actually scale models of full scale planes which is why I asked about Katanas.

I like Edge, Extra, and Giles, in no particular order.

I just found Abellrc.com and it looks promising - 25% scale models for $299. They have great deals on combos w/ 28cc gas engine for $550, though it looks like I'd get more power from an OS 160.

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

The power/weight metric for competitive aerobatic flight breaks somewhere between the 160FX or Moki 180/210 for glow planes from about 70" to 80" wingspan, and then jumps to 50 cc gas for all practical purposes, which you can squeeze into an 80" wing, but really should be looking at 84 to 87" wingspan size model. I've seen kit-built 80" Midwest models with 40 cc engines do reasonably well a few years back, but the 50 cc engines available these days weigh about the same as the 40's of a few years ago, so for the same weight you might as well have the more power. The smaller gassers are often interesting to guys wanting to move to their first gas model, and they tend to think that a smaller gas engine will be less expensive, take a model that is also less expensive for airframe & servos etc. You can have good fun with a 26-35 cc gas engine on the right plane, but they are sub-optimal for competitive aerobatics.

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

So if I'm limiting myself to a 70" plane, one would say that a 26-28cc engine would be on the small side...

http://estore.websitepros.com/173229...mbo/Detail.bok

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

I'd have to agree that going to gas in the 35 to 50cc range is gonna be way better in the long run but for IMAC it is not required. As has been mentioned, in basic if it has wings, bring it. I've seen guys using Four Stars for basic and doing well. IMAC is all about the proper setup of a given plane as well as flying each maneuver properly and that goes from basic all the way to unlimited but once above basic, having a scale plane is required. Basically the rule is if it has flown in a real IAC competition it can fly in IMAC above the basic class. That means some high wing planes are legal in IMAC such as a Decathalon. I'm all for being the person that goes against the norm and I find the Sukhoi series to be a much better IMAC plane (let the flaming begin ;)) if properly setup and the new H9 version certainly fits the bill if you take the time to properly set it up and re-glue the snot out of it. Right now I fly a C-ARF Extra 260 in IMAC but have owned the Sukhoi and did the trimming work on it and was all ready until it literally blew the aileron off the right wing panel.

Proper plane setup is everything for IMAC or any type of flying for that matter, it takes a load of work off the pilot and in IMAC and 3D the less you have to correct in the air, the better. You can easily end up doing 40 to 50 flights to get a plane setup correctly, though they will be very short flights.

This years IMAC ship and me at Woodstock CT

http://stansphotos.com/Woodstock%20IMAC%2008-1/027.jpg

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

I have no issue with your reasons for limiting your search to a 70" wingspan, and I have no issue with the Abell selections as far as airframes (Edge, Extra, Sukhoi, Yak). My main difficulty is with the 28 cc gas powerplant. I have no familiarity with the MDL engine, but I bet it's considerably heavier than the 160FX. I have seen the 160FX haul IMAC models to the top corners of the box with great authority, 78" wingspans included, so on a 70" ws model the OS would not even work up a sweat. The book on the 160FX in competition says this is a very powerful, well-behaved, reliable product with a long line of happy users and proven set-ups. Also reasonably priced. It is the primo choice for not expensive, not complicated, abundant power in the 70-78" ws, 10-12 lb range for aerobatic models.

Also, no slur on Abell, but you would have to pay shipping if you order from them, whereas similar products from the major hobby shop distributors are available without an extra shipping charge.

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

Ok.

BJames, that Casper is AWESOME!!!

MajorTom, point taken. OS 2 stroke is most likely the best option for me. As far as airframes, the Abellrc planes are a touch smaller than my favorite online hobby shop, and about $100 less for something comparable. Mostly I like those sub 70" planes for $299. My Venus (68") is quite a handful to maneuver around my apartment and car, so that's what I'm going to set the limit at until I'm out of school (with grad school that's 4 more years[X(]

)

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

gaRCfield....

grab your Venus and head to a contest!

http://www.mini-iac.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=76

There are a couple more this year in your region...
You'll get a good idea about IMAC and the people and the planes..
Just go for it.....
Let the CD know it is your first contest.. and they should pair you up with an experienced pilot....

Just go for it......
Then you'll have the winter to decide which way to go....

Trust me, you'll love it!

I know I do!


Also, here is a video of the Basic sequence. This is flown on the simulator by Wayne Geffon
http://www.bbw.shutupandfly.com/Basic2008.wmv

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

This is what I'm getting for my Birthday in a couple of weeks:
http://www.hobbypeople.net/gallery/159525.asp
71" Katana, weighing in at 11.8 lbs (or so they say).
I have experience with Phoenix Models, Seagull Models gets good reviews, and these 3 manufacturers are all incredibly similar (all made in Vietnam), covered with same stuff, etc. so I should be fine with the quality of the plane.


Will an OS 160 2 stroke be enough for this plane? I haven't been interested in 3D stuff until pretty recently - I'd like to have the ability to do 3D but really am concentrating on precision aerobatics. I guess what I'm trying to say is it would be nice to have extra power to pull myself out of emergencies.

Other options are a Moki 1.80 2-stroke, Saito 1.80 4-stroke, and a 50CC gas engine which I know nothing about.

Thanks!

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

Here are links to the planes in the poll: My birthday is next weekend and my parents are ready to order me a plane, so please vote!!!
All to be powered by an 'appropriate' OS two stroke.

Katana: http://www.rcuniverse.com/magazine/a...article_id=641

Extra: http://www.rcuniverse.com/product_gu...fm?kit_id=5252

Edge: http://www.rcuniverse.com/magazine/a...article_id=706

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

Elections are in a month and a half, why not practice voting now?! ;)

Rock the vote!!!

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

Morning gaRCfield...Great post. I have researched the planes,the manufactures, and their hadware packs. The clear winner, the best buy for your money, and gets my vote is the Seagull Extra 260 from Horizon Hobby. That's only if you combo it with an OS 1.60FX.
If you decide to use any other engine, then I reserve the right to retract my vote!!! :D hey, this is a democracy here ya know!

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

gaRCfield, again just glad to help and to see another fellow flyer enjoy the sport!
One other tid-bit...The Seagull has a "track record" so to speak and has a good overall record in general. The planes construction is of good material with things like the spars, fillets, and doublers all done the right way to add strength to the important areas while keeping weight to a minimum. One of the most important areas of all these new planes coming out of china or the far east is the glue that the plant uses. I have seen what was left of planes after a mild crash where all the joints just popped apart cuz they were put together with what amounts to a lousy hot-glue gun job. Your 260 will be just fine.
I do want you to read my thread on the "Building the new Hangar 9 Sukhoi SU26MM" in the "Giant Scale" area of the forums. Here's the link:
[link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_7846501/tm.htm]Sukhoi SU26MM[/link]
If you look at this forum and kinda pick up on what I'm trying to say, you'll see that there is much more to building a good plane then just cruzin through the instruction manual. Check it out and hopefully it will help you. You can also check out my thread on my build of my Dietrich Performance Extra 260 50cc/DA-50R. Here is the link:
[link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_7227704/anchors_7227704/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#7227704]DPA Extra 260 50cc[/link]
Good Luck and have Fun! :D

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

Very comforting to hear good things about Seagull. People really seem to love their planes. This build will take place over the whole winter, so I plan on taking my time and doing things right. I will bookmark the links above and reference them for ideas. I'm sure I'll have a lot of questions - already I'm wondering what I'll use for battery (7V lipo with regulator or just a good 6V nimh?) and throttle servo. Stock or Pitts muffler? Also, apparently the plane can be set up with 2 servos in each wing, but some people who have the plane have not done this - I've got JR DS821 servos for the elevator and ailerons (72oz at 4.8v, will use 6v) and think this should be fine. Will do much higher torque for rudder.

I just got myself a digi-camera, so I'll try to do a build thread, and maybe even a user review.

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

I would due what gaRCfield says fly the Venus first its A great little plane and that way you can get your feet wet. Good luck and have fun.

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

Well, I just saw a video of the Seagull Extra. Nice looking plane, but the (youtube) video did nothing for the plane - it was powered by a 180 four stroke, and either the plane was grossly underpowered, the plane was way too tail heavy, or a combination of both, because the plane STOPPED and lost tons of altitude in turns, and didn't seem to want to fly unless the nose was pointed up.

At the field today I inquired about larger planes from my two mentors, who both fly large planes and are the two best pilots in my club. I was told I don't want a 1.60 two stroke (10% nitro is $35/gal here!), and I don't want a heavy plane. They assured I was ready for a nice quarter scale gasser, and the club president promised to help me with a gas engine next summer if I get one. I've been hesitant to get a light plane due to the lack of wood (easy to break?) but if I fly high and not crash, what's the difference?

So, I'm not going to rush - at least I'm not going to settle, on a new plane - I'll get what I REALLY want (and can fit) like a quarter scale extra and an appropriate gasoline engine.

Time to start researching engines I guess! Thanks for all the help - you guys were all right in the first place, and I'm glad I didn't jump into a decision that would have saved a few dollars now but cost me more money in fuel and less satisfaction in settling on a mediocre airframe.

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

The best part of your conclusion is, don't buy in a rush of enthusiasm, and when you're offered help from a veteran flyer, do the smart thing and listen to what he has to say, especially if he's willing to buddy up and look over your shoulder. Apprenticeship can't be beat for building skill and transferring arcane knowledge.

RE: Plane recommendations for starting IMAC
 

Morning gaRCfield! I liked to fell out when I read your message...now your talking! You can thank your club guys for me for helping you out and I totally agree with them. You continued to lean towards a glow plane from what I was getting from you which would have been fine but this is a much better overall decision by far.
The QQ plane is great. I know of probably a dozen members at my club that fly QQ planes and they all like them. They don't do IMAC with them but then those guys don't do any compitition they just rip holes in the air and goof around with trying to learn 3D.
I don't know anything about the engine but what little bit of research I did, it seems ok too. It has a couple of points I really like...the walbro carb is definitely a plus.
I say go for it, save the bucks and have a blast. You know you will be entering into a whole new phase of your flying world right? You will officially become a member of the cheaper to fly, easier to keep clean, and nosier than the rest "Gasser Bunch" (thats what they call us at our club). Keep me posted and go read my articles! :D

RickB
Gotta luv it![8D]