Couldn't get bee to start
11-16-2009, 10:46 AM
#27
RE: Couldn't get bee to start
Agree w/Anthony .. filling the onboard tank (I don't use one...) maybe ok to send liquid over, but the onboard is tapped at the top to feed the turbine, so even if there is liquid in the onboard, no liquid goes to the turbine. Liquid to the turbine is the no-no.
Every one has their preferences but the reasons I don't use onboard gas are:
Pluses:
1) one less thing to put in the airplane
2) less risk of post-crash fire. Even with the turbine shut down, parts are hot enough to light off propane but not kero...
Minuses:
1) one more thing needed on the flightline to start
I feel the + outweighs the -, but not everyone agrees .. and I readily admit plus number 2 is a feeling .. not really proven.
FWIW, YMMV...
Dave
Every one has their preferences but the reasons I don't use onboard gas are:
Pluses:
1) one less thing to put in the airplane
2) less risk of post-crash fire. Even with the turbine shut down, parts are hot enough to light off propane but not kero...
Minuses:
1) one more thing needed on the flightline to start
I feel the + outweighs the -, but not everyone agrees .. and I readily admit plus number 2 is a feeling .. not really proven.
FWIW, YMMV...
Dave
11-16-2009, 10:51 AM
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RE: Couldn't get bee to start
I am using outboard propane and do not use the on board tank. This was the recommendation that was given so I did it. I asked the question about liquid propane and when starting from the outboard tank I use it upside down and verify I have liquid to the gas solenoid. Maybe in the confusion the question was answered wrong from Eric when I asked but the way I got it was the on board tank was dip tube and had to be mounted upright so it fed liquid, not using means using the tank upside down. I know mine starts very well and ramps up like a clock at 5%.
Could you please post back when you talk to Eric I am curious if my starting procedure is correct with liquid propane?
Mat
Could you please post back when you talk to Eric I am curious if my starting procedure is correct with liquid propane?
Mat
11-16-2009, 02:53 PM
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RE: Couldn't get bee to start
If using POWERMAX definetly turn the can upside down to get gas only and no liquid
Propane is dispensed using the can upright always
If all else fails get a WREN SS !!!!!
Propane is dispensed using the can upright always
If all else fails get a WREN SS !!!!!
11-16-2009, 03:13 PM
#34
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RE: Couldn't get bee to start
Well, let's not go there. The Super Bee has a good reputation as a reliable motor. I am sure it is just a matter of getting the process dialed-in.
11-17-2009, 02:50 AM
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RE: Couldn't get bee to start
This has nothing to do with the thermocouple........ or a wren..... although a lovely brand.....
Don't get distracted, do talk to Eric but Iwould bet my dog and cat that engine is gonna start just fine with your valve opened all the way creep the % up by 5 or 10 each time.
Don't get distracted, do talk to Eric but Iwould bet my dog and cat that engine is gonna start just fine with your valve opened all the way creep the % up by 5 or 10 each time.
11-17-2009, 07:36 AM
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RE: Couldn't get bee to start
Socomon:
As you said in your email, we will not be able to talk for several days. However, please refer to the manual again to inusre your system is installed correctly. Here are some pointers.
1. Gas Filter / Restrictor must be installed near turbine with restrictor on the turbine side. Turbine will be extremely difficult to start without this part installed. Please insure you can blow through this line. Air will be restricted, but must be open.
2. Checking your glow plug with a Ni-Starter or similar OUTSIDE the turbine only insures the plug is working. Please use the "glow plug test" found in the INFO part of the START - INFO - RUN - RADIO screen. Attach ground loop and hot lead to plug. Initiate glow plug test. If not glowing cherry red or if there is white ash looking nichrome wire, increase glow plug power 3 pt.s at a time. If this does not improve the glow, change plugs. Glow plug setting for McCoy MC-9 is 25 - 30. For Rossi number 8, 38 - 42
3. PowerMax. . .always hold the can vertical. Coleman or similar propane, always hold the can vertical.
4. Valve from Dreamworks. . .fill the on board cannister with this valve open all the way. Insure the one way check valve (Festo) is installed and correctly. If check valve is reversed, this can allow loss of pressure and that will allow hot gasses to travel back through the Yellow line causing damage. Start with gas value at 30 if you have the Silver Festo Gas Valve. If using the Brass solenoid gas valve, you will have to go much higher.. . .50 - 60 Leave fill source connected after filling on board cannister. Initiate start. . .when you see glow test, open fill source valve during start.
5. If you do not have a temperature reading, gas will not light. . .check thermocouple connector polarity. If you do not have an rpm reading, turbine will not complete ramp to run. It will shut down by itself.
5. ECU Battery must be fully charged. Load test to determine condition of Battery. What battery are you using?
geh: George. . .cute comment about Wren. . .this is the Jet Central forum. . .Thank you !
All other responders: Thanks for the input. Socomon is unable to get with me by telephone until later this week. We will sort this out.
Regards to all,
Eric
As you said in your email, we will not be able to talk for several days. However, please refer to the manual again to inusre your system is installed correctly. Here are some pointers.
1. Gas Filter / Restrictor must be installed near turbine with restrictor on the turbine side. Turbine will be extremely difficult to start without this part installed. Please insure you can blow through this line. Air will be restricted, but must be open.
2. Checking your glow plug with a Ni-Starter or similar OUTSIDE the turbine only insures the plug is working. Please use the "glow plug test" found in the INFO part of the START - INFO - RUN - RADIO screen. Attach ground loop and hot lead to plug. Initiate glow plug test. If not glowing cherry red or if there is white ash looking nichrome wire, increase glow plug power 3 pt.s at a time. If this does not improve the glow, change plugs. Glow plug setting for McCoy MC-9 is 25 - 30. For Rossi number 8, 38 - 42
3. PowerMax. . .always hold the can vertical. Coleman or similar propane, always hold the can vertical.
4. Valve from Dreamworks. . .fill the on board cannister with this valve open all the way. Insure the one way check valve (Festo) is installed and correctly. If check valve is reversed, this can allow loss of pressure and that will allow hot gasses to travel back through the Yellow line causing damage. Start with gas value at 30 if you have the Silver Festo Gas Valve. If using the Brass solenoid gas valve, you will have to go much higher.. . .50 - 60 Leave fill source connected after filling on board cannister. Initiate start. . .when you see glow test, open fill source valve during start.
5. If you do not have a temperature reading, gas will not light. . .check thermocouple connector polarity. If you do not have an rpm reading, turbine will not complete ramp to run. It will shut down by itself.
5. ECU Battery must be fully charged. Load test to determine condition of Battery. What battery are you using?
geh: George. . .cute comment about Wren. . .this is the Jet Central forum. . .Thank you !
All other responders: Thanks for the input. Socomon is unable to get with me by telephone until later this week. We will sort this out.
Regards to all,
Eric
11-17-2009, 09:11 AM
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RE: Couldn't get bee to start
Hi Eric
I have the Eagle and when starting using a propane feed that hooks directly to the gas valve I was under the impression I had to feed liquid. In my case this would be the tank held upside down. The turbine is starting well with this procedure but I am wondering if I should be feeding gas instead of liquid, could you clarify for me should I be feeding liquid or gas to the gas soleniod?
Thanks
Mat
I have the Eagle and when starting using a propane feed that hooks directly to the gas valve I was under the impression I had to feed liquid. In my case this would be the tank held upside down. The turbine is starting well with this procedure but I am wondering if I should be feeding gas instead of liquid, could you clarify for me should I be feeding liquid or gas to the gas soleniod?
Thanks
Mat
11-17-2009, 10:44 AM
#38
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Thread Starter
RE: Couldn't get bee to start
ORIGINAL: BluFox
Socomon:
As you said in your email, we will not be able to talk for several days. However, please refer to the manual again to inusre your system is installed correctly. Here are some pointers.
1. Gas Filter / Restrictor must be installed near turbine with restrictor on the turbine side. Turbine will be extremely difficult to start without this part installed. Please insure you can blow through this line. Air will be restricted, but must be open.
2. Checking your glow plug with a Ni-Starter or similar OUTSIDE the turbine only insures the plug is working. Please use the ''glow plug test'' found in the INFO part of the START - INFO - RUN - RADIO screen. Attach ground loop and hot lead to plug. Initiate glow plug test. If not glowing cherry red or if there is white ash looking nichrome wire, increase glow plug power 3 pt.s at a time. If this does not improve the glow, change plugs. Glow plug setting for McCoy MC-9 is 25 - 30. For Rossi number 8, 38 - 42
3. PowerMax. . .always hold the can vertical. Coleman or similar propane, always hold the can vertical.
4. Valve from Dreamworks. . .fill the on board cannister with this valve open all the way. Insure the one way check valve (Festo) is installed and correctly. If check valve is reversed, this can allow loss of pressure and that will allow hot gasses to travel back through the Yellow line causing damage. Start with gas value at 30 if you have the Silver Festo Gas Valve. If using the Brass solenoid gas valve, you will have to go much higher.. . .50 - 60 Leave fill source connected after filling on board cannister. Initiate start. . .when you see glow test, open fill source valve during start.
5. If you do not have a temperature reading, gas will not light. . .check thermocouple connector polarity. If you do not have an rpm reading, turbine will not complete ramp to run. It will shut down by itself.
5. ECU Battery must be fully charged. Load test to determine condition of Battery. What battery are you using?
geh: George. . .cute comment about Wren. . .this is the Jet Central forum. . .Thank you !
All other responders: Thanks for the input. Socomon is unable to get with me by telephone until later this week. We will sort this out.
Regards to all,
Eric
Socomon:
As you said in your email, we will not be able to talk for several days. However, please refer to the manual again to inusre your system is installed correctly. Here are some pointers.
1. Gas Filter / Restrictor must be installed near turbine with restrictor on the turbine side. Turbine will be extremely difficult to start without this part installed. Please insure you can blow through this line. Air will be restricted, but must be open.
2. Checking your glow plug with a Ni-Starter or similar OUTSIDE the turbine only insures the plug is working. Please use the ''glow plug test'' found in the INFO part of the START - INFO - RUN - RADIO screen. Attach ground loop and hot lead to plug. Initiate glow plug test. If not glowing cherry red or if there is white ash looking nichrome wire, increase glow plug power 3 pt.s at a time. If this does not improve the glow, change plugs. Glow plug setting for McCoy MC-9 is 25 - 30. For Rossi number 8, 38 - 42
3. PowerMax. . .always hold the can vertical. Coleman or similar propane, always hold the can vertical.
4. Valve from Dreamworks. . .fill the on board cannister with this valve open all the way. Insure the one way check valve (Festo) is installed and correctly. If check valve is reversed, this can allow loss of pressure and that will allow hot gasses to travel back through the Yellow line causing damage. Start with gas value at 30 if you have the Silver Festo Gas Valve. If using the Brass solenoid gas valve, you will have to go much higher.. . .50 - 60 Leave fill source connected after filling on board cannister. Initiate start. . .when you see glow test, open fill source valve during start.
5. If you do not have a temperature reading, gas will not light. . .check thermocouple connector polarity. If you do not have an rpm reading, turbine will not complete ramp to run. It will shut down by itself.
5. ECU Battery must be fully charged. Load test to determine condition of Battery. What battery are you using?
geh: George. . .cute comment about Wren. . .this is the Jet Central forum. . .Thank you !
All other responders: Thanks for the input. Socomon is unable to get with me by telephone until later this week. We will sort this out.
Regards to all,
Eric
Eric. Thank you for the response.
RE:
#1 - Restrictor and filter are in place and installed per manual. I can blow through the line some, but it is very restricted.
#2 - We did verify the plug with an external glow driver.
#3 - Using coleman and bottle was vertical
#4 - I am not using onboard propane bottle. External only. See photos below for check valve and solenoid.
#5 - RPM and temp were registering (though I did have this wrong at first, I corrected it after the first start attempt).
#6 - 7.2v 2200 lipo - fully charged.
I may have a chance to try again late tomorrow afternoon or early evening. Should I call you at tthe 941 number in your profile?
Steve
11-17-2009, 06:20 PM
#40
Senior Member
Thread Starter
RE: Couldn't get bee to start
Yeah, we pulled it out and then pulled it out some more. It was hanging down as far as it would go. I don't think that was the culprit by the end.
11-18-2009, 03:32 PM
#41
Senior Member
Thread Starter
RE: Couldn't get bee to start
UPDATE:
My buddy came over this afternoon. We were unable to get the motor to start on propane using the regulated valve - even with the gas set @ 100% in the ECU.
We tried my buddy's PowerMax bottle and the gas set at 30% and it started right away. In fact, I believe that % was probably even too high because on the second attemp it did not start and there was a strong smell of powermax. We waited a second and restarted and the engine lit off without adding any extra gas.
So . . . not sure where this leaves me. Seems like I either have to go with powermax or make an unregulated valve for the propane.
Steve
My buddy came over this afternoon. We were unable to get the motor to start on propane using the regulated valve - even with the gas set @ 100% in the ECU.
We tried my buddy's PowerMax bottle and the gas set at 30% and it started right away. In fact, I believe that % was probably even too high because on the second attemp it did not start and there was a strong smell of powermax. We waited a second and restarted and the engine lit off without adding any extra gas.
So . . . not sure where this leaves me. Seems like I either have to go with powermax or make an unregulated valve for the propane.
Steve
11-18-2009, 04:21 PM
#42
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RE: Couldn't get bee to start
Steve,
I would get this worked out with Eric so you will be covered if anything happens and suggest you talk to him on the phone.
As was mentioned earlier from someone with 5 engines, and all requiring different gas for start; I have personally found this to be the case. As you have found, using the "regulated" valve with the line restrictor, you apparently are not getting enough gas for starts. I do not use the line restrictor with the regulated valve as I have experienced the same exact issue, but I would not suggest this avenue, especially if you are unfamiliar with the turbine and its operation. Also, not sure; but removing the restrictor may void any warranty you have, that's why I suggested talking with Eric first before you do anything. The unregulated valve is your best bet, but you'll most likely have to make it yourself unless you convert to Power Max, which I prefer to stay with propane (green bottle).
I'm just passing on my experience, and mostly trying to convey that you need to talk to Eric when you are able.
R/
George
I would get this worked out with Eric so you will be covered if anything happens and suggest you talk to him on the phone.
As was mentioned earlier from someone with 5 engines, and all requiring different gas for start; I have personally found this to be the case. As you have found, using the "regulated" valve with the line restrictor, you apparently are not getting enough gas for starts. I do not use the line restrictor with the regulated valve as I have experienced the same exact issue, but I would not suggest this avenue, especially if you are unfamiliar with the turbine and its operation. Also, not sure; but removing the restrictor may void any warranty you have, that's why I suggested talking with Eric first before you do anything. The unregulated valve is your best bet, but you'll most likely have to make it yourself unless you convert to Power Max, which I prefer to stay with propane (green bottle).
I'm just passing on my experience, and mostly trying to convey that you need to talk to Eric when you are able.
R/
George
11-18-2009, 06:29 PM
#43
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RE: Couldn't get bee to start
You are working way to hard at this. You have now proved that using the regulated valve does not allow you to build up enough pressure to charge the system properly when using the in line restrictor. Go back to this link
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_90...tm.htm#9059644
Read Eric's start procedure using regular old propane and then go build yourself a valve for the green Coleman cans. There are lots of ways to do this. I went to Home Depot and purchased a propane torch head for the coleman type cans. Cost was $5.95. Take off the end of the torch assembly (it just screws on) and drill a hole in the end of the pipe. Can't remember what size I drilled but I think it was about 1/16. You can probably drill up to 1/8. The threads on the end of the torch valve tube are specific to the torch but you can go to your plumbing hardware section and buy a 3/8 inch fitting for plumbing an ice maker. This fitting has a nipple on one end and threads on the other. It fits over the torch tube but is a little to big and does not engage the treads properly. I just used JB Weld to attach this fitting to the tube. Or you can solder it if you don't believe in JB Weld (who doesn't??). Next you will need to attach the gas line to the nipple on your new valve. It is a tight fit but you can heat the same line your system is plumbed with and get it on the nipple. You have just built a valve like the one referenced in Bill Hatchers post under the above thread. I can post a picture if you like but it is just like the one shown in Bill's post.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_90...tm.htm#9059644
Read Eric's start procedure using regular old propane and then go build yourself a valve for the green Coleman cans. There are lots of ways to do this. I went to Home Depot and purchased a propane torch head for the coleman type cans. Cost was $5.95. Take off the end of the torch assembly (it just screws on) and drill a hole in the end of the pipe. Can't remember what size I drilled but I think it was about 1/16. You can probably drill up to 1/8. The threads on the end of the torch valve tube are specific to the torch but you can go to your plumbing hardware section and buy a 3/8 inch fitting for plumbing an ice maker. This fitting has a nipple on one end and threads on the other. It fits over the torch tube but is a little to big and does not engage the treads properly. I just used JB Weld to attach this fitting to the tube. Or you can solder it if you don't believe in JB Weld (who doesn't??). Next you will need to attach the gas line to the nipple on your new valve. It is a tight fit but you can heat the same line your system is plumbed with and get it on the nipple. You have just built a valve like the one referenced in Bill Hatchers post under the above thread. I can post a picture if you like but it is just like the one shown in Bill's post.
11-18-2009, 06:40 PM
#44
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Thread Starter
RE: Couldn't get bee to start
I dunno if I am working too hard, but I am learning and having fun with it.
That valve sounds like the way to go. I will swing by the Home Depot this weekend for the parts. Thank you for the info on it.
That valve sounds like the way to go. I will swing by the Home Depot this weekend for the parts. Thank you for the info on it.
11-19-2009, 08:25 AM
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RE: Couldn't get bee to start
Can I ask how you held the powermax bottle as I understand it has a dip tube which if held upright would yield liquid, unless it is the red powermax bottle which as I have read does not have a dip tube? MInd you I am new at this and couid be way out to lunch. I think I am going to cut the bottom out of my onboard tank as I do not use it and see if it has a dip tube, that should tell me if I need gas or luquid for my own piece of mind as I have been starting on liquid at 5% gas setting and I do not want to damage anything. It sure starts nice there though.
Eric's above mail says hold both propane and poweramx vertical but again I have read the powermax has a dip tube, anyone know if this is true?
Mat
Eric's above mail says hold both propane and poweramx vertical but again I have read the powermax has a dip tube, anyone know if this is true?
Mat
11-19-2009, 09:05 AM
#47
RE: Couldn't get bee to start
Socomon,
I think what Eric is trying to say is that you need to get liquid propane/butane (powermax) into the on-board start bottle. The bottle is then held vertically with the top facing upward.
The liquid then escapes as gas to the engine. In order to get liquid into the bottle with the PowerMax you hold it vertically (top up). PowerMax has a tube that extends into the liquid.
If you want gas out of the PowerMax can then turn it upside down. Most other propane or propane/butane cans have no tube, so you would hold them vertically (top up) to get gas
or bottom up to get liquid.
I think what Eric is trying to say is that you need to get liquid propane/butane (powermax) into the on-board start bottle. The bottle is then held vertically with the top facing upward.
The liquid then escapes as gas to the engine. In order to get liquid into the bottle with the PowerMax you hold it vertically (top up). PowerMax has a tube that extends into the liquid.
If you want gas out of the PowerMax can then turn it upside down. Most other propane or propane/butane cans have no tube, so you would hold them vertically (top up) to get gas
or bottom up to get liquid.
11-19-2009, 10:20 AM
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RE: Couldn't get bee to start
Socomon
Did you use the onboard tank or did you feed directly to the gas soleniod like I do when starting? If you fed direct then you fed liquid which could explain the much lower start gas number compared to propane as feeding propane direct to the gas solenoid right side up will yield gas where as feeding powermax direct tot he solenoid right side up will yield liquid.
I know (right or wrong) I am feeding liquid propane holding it inverted direct to the solenoid without the onboard can. I am just worried I am doing things wrong mind you the results are great LOL.
Mat
Did you use the onboard tank or did you feed directly to the gas soleniod like I do when starting? If you fed direct then you fed liquid which could explain the much lower start gas number compared to propane as feeding propane direct to the gas solenoid right side up will yield gas where as feeding powermax direct tot he solenoid right side up will yield liquid.
I know (right or wrong) I am feeding liquid propane holding it inverted direct to the solenoid without the onboard can. I am just worried I am doing things wrong mind you the results are great LOL.
Mat
11-19-2009, 12:10 PM
#49
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RE: Couldn't get bee to start
As i posted above - no onboard tank. The gas is fed directly into the check vlave and then into the solenoid.
If I get to speak to Eric on the phone, I will try to get him to clarify some of this.
If I get to speak to Eric on the phone, I will try to get him to clarify some of this.
