Unfortunately that happens all to often. And is hilarious as hell to watch!!!

No, but if you install the piston/ring, crankshaft/connecting rod, bearings, cylinders, and carburator, did you "build" an engine or assemble one. Do you need to cast and machine the parts to be able to claim you built it?

I have both kit built and ARFs. I personally prefer ARFs. I prefer flying to "building". Building gives me an emotional attachment to the aircraft I "built" because of all the time invested. It hurts alot more if I loose a plane I built - only loose a some money if I loose an ARF (no emotional attachment). I have personally never had an ARF suffer a structural failure, and I fly very aggressively. I am a blender and tumbling nut. I did have a 1/4 scale cub I built from a kit suffer from total structural failure (hit the ground at full throttle):-)

Well, that is a very valid point. When they hit the ground full throttle, hard to tell if it was or not home built or an ARF... My next project is an RTF that is about to be turned into an ARC (almost ready to cover) updated and improved where and if needed, sale details added, and then re-covered. It is a Wendell Hostetler 30% in RTF state right now (not for long). I bought a old used Decathlon, inactive for some time. Will re-hab as soon as I get the time. I have one more project in line before this one.

Most great acrobatic pilots we read about in the magazines fly ARFS. Somezini and so many, many more... May out there have a builder put together their arfs... There IS no wrong or right way to have fun, as long as you are having fun. Just that too many seem too stupeed to understand this concept. I am going to the Wram show tomorrow. Let's see what inspires me... (to let go of some cash, and reactivate the economy).

Gerry

I love to fly and I really enjoy building the plane. But, I clearly do not have the skills to really build the plane (ie, put together a kit). For me, assembling an ARF and adding the motor, ESC, servos, etc is enough to tax my skills. So, I know I'm not a real builder, but assembling the ARF gives me great joy. I'm just glad that we now have the flexibility to buy kits, ARFs, PNPs, BNF, and RTFs. That way, whatever our skill level, we can still have fun and fly.

@neverlost1. Precisely in regards to having an emotional connection to kits built vs ARFs assembled. I also have a ARF and a PNP. I got them for quick instant fun while my Kougar and Komet was being built. And since I have both types of planes, I have felt the connection to built vs ARFs. I've been saying this for some time that when the planes are built by the owner, the owner will fly them with greater care, maintain them with greater care, and handle them with greater care compared to the ARFs, RTFs, PNPs, BNFs, etc. when I fly the ARF and PNP, I do so with "if it crashes, no worries, just go out and buy another one if I want to". In my situation, I've wanted birds that are not offered as ARFs, RTFs, etc. So far, all the birds I was interested in have been only offered in kits requiring to be built from a stack of balsa, plastic, and hardware. The two ARF and PNP birds I have was just purchased to tide me over during the builds. One bird I have been looking at is the Dirty Birdie and that one is offered as an ARF. However I've read about quality issues with those ARFs. So I think I'm going to just be on the lookout for the traditional Dirty Birdie build kit instead of the ARF version.

I did not kill that turkey!!!!!!!!

I don't ARF.

That was not exactly what happened. He DID pull full up elevator at the last minute. Only problem was the wing folded in half. "There was something wrong with that airplane ! I am going to the hobby shop & get my money back !"

This thread is "the" definition of the silly season of RC. Usually about the time that the first kits/assemblies are done during the building season up north. This type of thread comes around on a regular basis.

I've assembled kits and built ARFs. I've re-kitted RTF too. Once had a mishap that made a RTF an ARC. I've used scraps of kits in ARFs during the assembly phase in order to bash an ARF into a kARF. I've used scratch built wings on an ARF for my own custom sARF-Wing only ARC.

ITS A FRICKEN HOBBY. Lighten up all you Francis's.

when dealing with engineering, terminology is incredibly important, as it conveys very specific technical data.

When dealing with people, terminology is also important, so that they understand what you mean.

In common conversation, the words "build" and "assemble" aren't really all that different from each other.

The problem I have with the Build Vs Assemble threads is that they just serve as a venue for builders to pat themselves on the back for being "better" than the lowly "assemblers". the arrogance shows right through, and does not impress the rest of us at all.

I have heard it said that fish are so varied, that scientifically speaking, there's no such thing as a "fish". While that may be useful to science, if you tell someone there's no such thing as a fish, you look like an idiot.

If someone tells me they built an ARF, I know what they mean. If someone corrects me because I said I built an ARF, I know theyr'e a snob.

And.....the ARF Assemblers to pat them selves on the back and say that they "built" the plane. Why was that option purposely left out? How about. lets just pay everybody the same for just showing up to work, regardless of how hard they work or what is involved in what they do for the company.

Building a plane from a kit does not seriously require THAT much skill. Somehow I am annoyed when a person says they done have the skill for that. I say BS to most of those people, you just dont want to try.

Perhaps in some cases. But I had a relative who was a genius at business, however he attempted to work on his car once and spent a few hours turning a socket before realizing that he needed to use a 1/2 inch instead of a 1" inch socket. He was turning that socket forever before asking someone who was familiar with working on cars what the problem was. He never did get the concept and decided not to deal with that type of handy work any longer. He's not alone. There are tons of people out there who just don't understand how to work/build stuff. The end result is the same, people love to fly a plane. Some build the planes they fly while other's can't or don't want to build them. I love to eat sushi, but that doesn't mean I can or want to prepare it. And I won't tell people I made the sushi I purchased already prepared.

Just enjoy rc flying.yes arfs are assembled and kits are built.and if your one of the very few able to build from a set of plans great.but when its time to fly who really cares just fly and have fun.i am finishing up a sig liberty sport .a friend was going to finish building but lost interest .I have had so much fun with it that I decided I will build another one.i was trying my hand at 3d flying and while I learned alot I was ready for a change.i have flown numerous arfs.i have a wildhare 260 with a dle30 fantastic plan.i have a dynaflite pt 19 .balsa built. And several 3dhobby planes.my last biggie was a a giant stinger with a 3w60.my point is who cares if someone assembled it or built it.i respect builders as I do it on infrequent occasions.but I I used to have a hurried carreer and building wasnt always an option.stop knocking anyone who assembles .be happy to fly and ppreciate the merits of this great hobby.

Thats why I said 'Most People'

Hey - You can't start a fire with that. Your wood is wet !

Nobody has to say anything to clarify that theirs is an ARF when it looks just like 5 or 6 others at the field.

One great side benefit that has come out of situations like this is that there are a lot of guys out there that are realizing some extra income from building kits for people who want planes that aren't available as an ARF, and this includes myself. I have several pilots out there that are constantly calling me and trying to get their latest kit "in line" for my building bench get built. I'm not getting rich doing this, but it does do two things for me. It lets me build planes (which I absolutely enjoy) and it puts some extra money in my pocket at the same time. It works out great for both of us as the pilots gets planes they get to fly that nobody else at their fields have because they aren't available as an ARF, and I'm happy because I got to build and made some money doing it!!!

Ken

Wow, your the first person I heard made some money building r/c kits for people. Reminds me of my grandfather. He was an autobody man in a small town in Nebraska since the end of WWII. Guys around town would buy old cars and stick them in their garage and then invite him over to show them the car's they bought with intentions to restore. Once I was there visiting when one of the guys had my grandfather come over to their house to view such an item. They were in the garage for an hour or so talking about the car and then my grandfather and I left. When we left my grandfather was telling me that he actually hates going over and looking at these type of things because he knows all the guys want to do is get my grandfather to do all the work and then they own and drive the finished product around like they were the ones who did all the work and spent all the time working on.

Such work on r/c planes I guess would pay off if you were a retired guy who wasn't making money with your time outside of building one for someone. Depending on plane, how much time in total would it take? I've been building my SIG Komet now for approximately a month and a half, in the sixth week now. Probably spent roughly on average two hours per weekday evening and between 6 to 8 hours in total over each weekend since the build start date. If I were to build this kit for someone, how much would my time be worth? Lets just hypothetically say it takes me 200 hours from start to finish working on this bird. If they pay me $1 per hour for my labor, I'd make $200.00. Now is someone going to want to pay an additional $200 on top of all the other expenses such as building materials, the kit itself, etc? Just like my grandfather working on other guy's collector cars, building planes for people is no different, the time and efforts you put in are more like charity work. I think most people would elect to just go out and buy and ARF, RTF, PNP, BNF, etc. It would actually be much cheaper going that route vs having it built by someone, unless your doing it all free of charge. This is the other reason why the already built planes are constructed so cheap with cheap materials, because the company which builds them needs to make money some way or the other.

And again, so far all the birds I've wanted have only been offered in unbuilt kits. They don't make a SIG Kougar ARF simply because there is too much work involved building such birds. They'd have to charge more than what most people would be willing to pay for that size of bird. And if they ever do offer it in a ARF, RTF, etc. I guarantee you the quality of the materials and/or construction will decrease compared to the traditional unbuilt SIG Kougar kits.

Yes, I do make money building airplanes for people. Now to be honest the planes that I've built aren't going to be something along the lines of say a 4-Star or a Something Extra, but if somebody really wanted me to build one I would gladly come up with a price to build it for them. For instance, the next in line is a build that the guy and have been going back and forth on for a couple of years and he finally pulled the trigger and got his place in line and I should be getting the kit in the mail and will be starting the build for him by the end of the month. It's a Great Planes Ultra Sport 1000. He has always wanted one, he found the kit, and he knows that he doesn't have the time or skills to build it, so he is paying me to build it. Not only am I going to make some money doing the build but I'm going to have a blast building this because this is one of my all time favorite sport planes. But many of the planes that I have built for people are guys that get tired of showing up at the field with an ARF only to see 5 or 6 others that look exactly the same as theirs.

I'm not going to get rich building planes by any means, but I am making some money doing something that to me is very enjoyable and is actually almost medicinal in ways. Time that I spend on the building table is calming and does wonders to help out my PTSD. I think that many of the people out there that say they are too busy to build would actually benefit if they would take some time and slow down and build and airplane instead of just slapping the parts together. Trust me here because I speak from experience on this subject. I am 49 years old and after having my military career cut short by medical discharge from an injury (hence the PTSD) I started and ran a couple of businesses with my wife, raised a family, rose to become the Forum Manager here at RCU, taught myself photography and videography to cover events for RCU, and I still found time to build airplane kits and get out to the field and fly them. Now that my son is grown and in college I have more time to build which giving a little bit more time to build for others which is where I am able to build for money, but for those that tell me that they don't have time to build an airplane I will simply tell them BS. You have time to do whatever you want to do. I speak from experience here and I can tell you that you can take a simple kit such as a trainer, Sig Something Extra, Sig 4-Star, or similar an spend maybe 20-30 minutes a night and within a month you could easily have that plane built and ready to fly. So to say that you don't have time to build is simply a cop out. Many of those that say they don't have time to build spend more time than that on Facebook every day, so don't tell me you don't have time to build. Anyway, I'm getting off track here. I'm just saying that building airplanes is something I wish more people would really slow down and experience, it's honestly something truly incredible to see the plane you built with your own hands take off for the first time!!

Ok, off my soapbox now!!! back to your regularly scheduled thread now!!!!

Ken

@RCKen, You're a little older than I am, where did you serve? I was in the '91 Gulf War myself. Yeah I hear you about the 4 or so same type of planes at the field. Funny cause lots of that goes on at the field I fly at too. When I fly the ARF Hangar 9 Alpha 40 people look at that plane and feel the same way. But when the Kougar rolls out on the pipe, that's a completely different story. I got in some paint from Reno yesterday so I've been able to paint the turtle deck on the Komet yesterday. This bird is friggin sweet and I'm sure it will get some interesting attention once it's at the field. So yeah, that is a big factor between the same birds at the airfield vs the one of a kind deals. Sort of on the same lines as how women hate showing up to a function all wearing the same exact thing, I suppose.

Now some of the really big birds like those 55% scale deals and such, I wouldn't even attempt building something like that. I wouldn't even try building a turbine aircraft, yet I am interested in perhaps getting one in the near future. I just don't have the knowledge base/lessons learned in regards to construction of such airframes and power plant systems. And it wouldn't be something I'd like to learn through trial and error.

And at the end of the day does it matter? I find you end up flying with guys with the same interest I think that's what matters the most..?

89-92 I was stationed at a Nuke Artillery Detachment in Italy. We didn't deploy to the first Gulf war because we had a real world mission of baby sitting a batch a 8" nuclear artillery rounds. In 92 after the fall of the USSR we closed down the detachments and all the rounds were shipped back to the US. Before that I was stationed at Ft. Lewis and after Italy I came home to the States and was stationed here in Oklahoma at Ft. SIll. That's were I was medically separated from the Army from and where my problems with PTSD started.

Building bigger airframes aren't something you start off with. It's like everything else you do in life. You have to work your way up to and you have to develop the skills for. But they are by no means secret and by no means something that is impossible to do. In my case it's just that I have been building for a long time. While I haven't been building RC planes for all that time, I've been building balsa wood planes for quite a long time. My dad started me off building Guillows planes when I was kid and I've always loved building kits since then. I've always liked taking a box of parts and putting them together and having a finished product. Whether it's wood to make an airplane or for the times that I was building scale plastic models it's still the same desire the build that has always driven me.

Ken

The difference is a true modeler builds and fly's a model aircraft from scratch or "kit" all the rest play with toy's !

Ah yeah, "Restricted area, deadly force authorization" My kind of watch, I know it well but not in Italy. Sorry to hear about Ft. Lewis as I've been there before and it wasn't exactly a "nice" base to be at.

In regards to the builds, no one taught me, I basically bought my first kit which was an Eaglet 50 back in '80 and did the best I could. I had built a few dozen plastic models by that time along with model rockets so I sort of had an idea. Back then, an Eaglet 50 was about the only rc I could afford. I think there were a few ARFs out at that time, but they were more expensive getting them that way and I didn't have the cash since I was a kid. I built and flew three birds in total during the early 80's. I then got back into r/c in about '95/'96 and built and flew two SIG Kougars until roughly '97/'98. I returned to r/c for the third time (third times the charm perhaps with everything) roughly a year ago. It was the leap in r/c electronics advancement that got me interested in the hobby again. The computer based radios, the electronics such as GPS and camera's, etc. is what did it for me. And for my first bird in over a decade, I chose the bird that I went bonkers over as a kid, the SIG Kougar. Fitted that plane with the most modern electronics. Next up is the SIG Komet which I'm hoping to maiden next month.

It was actually a good tour to be on for me because I was in Supply, until the damn walls came down and USSR went away and we closed down the site. Then my job in Supply was pure hell of 9 months of closing down and turning in and entire site. It was really weird because of my job in Supply I was actually still on site after the Commander left. I was the 3rd from the last person to leave the place!!!

I really do not think you can charge an hourly wage at all in regards to building planes for others. Its just not practical. What I see most do is charge for materials, and some flat fee upon completion.. or simple trading goods for the service, etc.