dear Zor

please explain to me.

When the crosswind is light and its angle to the landing line (like the center line if there is a runway) the model can have a final approach in line with the runway (or intended line of landing) and use side slipping while the nose and landing gear are pointing to the touch down. The nose attitude and the power used do control the rate of descent while side slipping against the crosswind component that is 90 degrees to the line of landing.

The crosswind pushes the model downwind but the side sliping into the wind maintain the ground trajectory as intended.

When the crosswind is strong the model is still approaching in a straight ground line but with its nose pointing into the wind the proper amount to keep the ground trajectory as intended. The wings are kept level during the approach. At the moment of flare out just before the wheels contact the surface rudder and some opposite ailerons are used to bring the wheels in line with the trajectory and it is ok if the upwind wheel touches first. This also avoids the crosswind of picking up the wing on the side the wind comes from. A wheel landing is preferable with a tail dragger if the crosswind is gusty to keep a low angle of attack until the speed has decreased.

It is easier and safer to land a tail dragger in a crosswind than a tricycle. The front wheel of a tricycle does not like misalignment when it contact the surface.

Voila ___a bit of practice can master the technique actually used by pilots of full size airplanes.

Crosswind landings, well executed, are a lot of fun.

Zor

You guys are wimps! I can handle all the crosswind you throw at me ... so long as it is right down the runway!

The first method is: don't. The second method is a little more complicated. It is the one flight maneuver that I have to think hard about the actions to get them right, and that can dangerously slow the process.

Be careful!

Bedford

well zor
you are a master

it would take years before i could do that

thank you

Crosswind landings (and takeoffs) are no big deal.

The objective is to be pointing and going straight down the runway with no sideways drift. Makes no difference if you fly a trike or a taildragger.

Whether or not you do it on two wheels or the upwind wheel on a taildragger makes no difference.

A taildragger can handle a very stiff crosswind by using more aileron and rudder control with a wheel landing - you land on the mains with the tail high. With a wheel landing, a taildragger can land at very high, slow or in between speed. With a stall landing, it will be tail low and ideally, will stall just as the tailwheel touches dowwn, followed immediately by the main gear.

Here's what you need to know:

1. tailwheel pilots live in a cross controlled world - opposite rudder and aileron inputs - because there is virtually always a crosswind on landing or takeoff. And we don't want any of those expensive ground loops.

2. it's aileron into the wind to prevent sideways drift.

3. it's opposite rudder to keep nose straight down the runway.

Comes from several hundred hours of full size taildragger flying. The joke is that there are those who have ground looped and those who are about to. You actually want to be in a third group who never has and never will.

One picky point "...the model can have a final approach in line with the runway (or intended line of landing) and use side slipping while the nose and landing gear are pointing to the touch down." That's actually a forward slip - the nose of the airplane is moving along the line of forward motion. In a side slip, the side of the airplane is moving along the line of forward motion. The extra drag of the side slip will also cause you to lose altitude in a big, big hurry.

And Zor is absolutley correct. Practice. Practice. Practice. The more you do it, the easier it becomes until it's automatic.

beepee and cshahrdar,

Hey guys ___what do you think fellows are doing when making a pass over the runway on edge.

The wingspan is perpendicular to the ground or at least they are trying to, lots of rudder and power is used.
They are trying to have a flight trajectory that is a straight line and paralllel to the ground.

Now changethat banked wing attitude to 45 degrees to the ground instead of perpendicular.
Now reduce the banked attitude to 30 degrees. You now need less power and less rudder to maintain a straigt flight trajectory parallel to the ground.

Your plane is now slipping in the direction of the low wing and the nose is heading the opposite way. The flight trajectory is still a straight line over the ground.

Now imagine that the wind strength (velocity) is making the ground trajectory in line with the direction the nose is pointing; all you have to do is reduce power (set a rate of descent) and at the proper height just flare out and land.

So much for the slipping approach.
Have you not learned how to side slip to loose altitude fast when too high on approach ?
The principle is the same.

For the second case
On final approach starting at some altitude in line with the intended line of touch down like the center line of the runway if there is one, anyone can maintain the wings level and use the rudder to aim the nose into the wind so that the ground trajectory remain a straight lineto the intended line of touch down. That is very easy.

A the time of flare out a bit of rudder and aileron with the elevators to line up the nose and landing gear and touch down. All easy with a bit of practice.

Now that you guys made me write things that you already knew and were pulling my leg,I dedicate this posting to the readers that are interested as to how easy we do things that are not really complicated.

Have a great day guys and look all around when landing with a strong crosswind .

Zor

do335a,

Thanks for the help. You resumed the explanation very nicely.

The blue I highlighted above reminds me of a similar joke about retractable gears.

<span style="color: #0000ff">Pilots that have not yet forgotten to put the wheels down . . . _
Those that nearly forgot . . . _
and those that did or will . . . _</span>

Oh I think I am forgetting a fourth group ___
Oh yes . . . . those that have never flown a retractable gear airplane.

One thing I really liked about the Grand Commander.
I could see the gears down instead of just relying on three green lights.

I would really like to meet you at your convenience.
Send me a PM with time and location.

Thanks from Zor

It is easier and safer to land a tail dragger in a crosswind than a tricycle. The front wheel of a tricycle does not like misalignment when it contact the surface.

above is what zor typed and im curious as his reasoning on this statement, he is correct as to the side slipping to corectly land an aircraft as that is one of the basis you are taught as a flight student before you solo, whether it be a taildragger or nose gear aircraft.

Hi ... brenthampton

Here follows my reasoning for fullsize airplanes and for models.

Full size
Always use the nose in method with wings level if there is passengers on board.
Passengers are not used or understand the side forces existing in slipping that forces them to try to straighten out with gravity resulting in not being perpendicular to their seat. Some might be afraid not understanding what is going on.

The yaw orientation during the flare out is ok as passengers are used to a change around a vertical axis.
If any light slipping is used during the flare out, it only last very few seconds followed nearly immediatly with the plane sitting on level ground and no fear for nervous passengers.

Pilots flying full size airplanes have been trained in this procedure andlikely been tested for their dexterity during the licensing flight test.

Models
We have here a quite different situation.
Nopassengers to take care of. We can have quite a considerable amount of bankedattitude on approach and keep the nose lined up with the intended landing line.

There is however a limit to the side slip due to the increase in rate of descent that has to be stopped at flare out.That often results in improper flare out and the nose wheel of a tricycle hitting the ground first with considerable impact. Don't we see and read enough about bent nose wheel wires and damaged firewalls.

Many models do not have sufficient solid structure mounting the nose wheelto resist nose wheel first impacts.
That can be even worst if there is impact sideways as well .

A tail dragger has much more strength in its main gears.

Remember that a tricycle has the CG in front of the main gears so on touch down most model pilots do not keep the nose wheel off the grounduntil they run out of downward lift at the tail.

With a tail dragger and the CG behind the main gears it is lots easier to keep the tail off the ground (a wheel landing) until the positive lift dies out.

I am not re-opening the discussion on ground looping that has been beaten to depth previously in another thread.

I hope the above explanation is clear as to how I understand these things and why a tail dragger is easier to land in a cross wind as the flare out does not need to be as fast or as pronounced as with a trigear trying to touch down on the main gears keeping the nose wheel off the ground and let the main gears take any impact. .

Every landing should be "greased on" the main wheels. You can grease on a tail dragger on its main wheels at any speed; you cannot do that with a trigear due to the angle of attack lifting the plane off the ground.

How many straight ahead landing do you wish to do with the trigear ? Hee Hee LOL

Regards from Zor

okay still not sure why the nose gear will hit the ground first on a model, shouldn't be any different between the full size or a model, I teach my students, either full scale or rc to properly use the rudder and aileron to counter x-wind landings. I think I'll let this sleeping dog lay, i just wanted to hear your reasoning on the taildragger versus nosegear argument better in a xwind.

my friend is a pilot and he has helped me better to understand this.

now what you wrote makes much more sense to me.

i will try to do this on my aerofly 5 flight simulator first.

thanks again

It appears so simple to me.

From reading you I see that you are an instructor on full size airplane as well as on models.
To be an instructor on full size airplanes you had to have a training and an endorsement as an isnstructor or whatever is called a legal recognition as an instructor on full size airplane.

Consequently I have no doubt that your training has made you an "exceptional"instructor for models.. .

Most club instructors are mainly acting as safety pilots on a buddy box and have had no training as instructors to follow a mandatory gudideline in teaching.

There is also many model fliers that learned all alone by themselves like using "trainer foamies" or "manufactured balsa trainers; ARF and RTF".

You must have noticed the large number of fellows that keep complaining about "floaters" because they never learned how to control approach speed. I have read so many times guys that are talking about flaring out 3 feet or so from ground. No surprise they often hit the nose gear first and perhaps all the time.

With a tail dragger the CG will bring the tail down and if enough speed which is the usual because they come in too fast afraid of stalling near the ground. The increased angle of attack will lift the model so their model just bounces off the surface. They do not damage a nose gear and its mounting which is often "flimsy".

You cannot judge the abilities of other fliers which did not get the good training you are giving your own students.

I have no trouble seeing what is going on with the majority of model fliers.

What else can I tell you ? Are you just enjoying making me talk ? ____.

I have said all I can say ___it is so easy to understand.

Zor

2012 is my 18th flying anniversary. Yep, I know how to crab sideways :} and thx for your concern.

Zor I'm not just making you talk and don't want start a big argument I am just trying to understand what you are saying is all. I have found that x-wind landings are usually easier mastered in a tricycle gear plane then after the pilot masters his/her skills landing in such aircraft and conditions then the taildragger transition is started if the pilot has a need to fly such aircraft. Obviously most RC pilots end up flying taildraggers due to all the cool planes but a lot of full scale pilots usually don't find themselves operating taildraggers for a living or for fun these days due to the cost and etc. Most flying jobs are to fly corporate aircraft, airliners, charter operations, and flight instruct which 90 percent of those planes are tricycle gear type planes. I am fortunate to get to fly a taildragger for a living, well not right now but thats a long story and to keep it short I'll be back flying our 802 this fall or next spring. So, I'm one of the lucky guys to get to fly that type of equipment.

Also I agree modelers come from all different back grounds and aren't usually fortunate to get structured training, which there is nothing wrong with that. The main thing is that it's a hobby and that they enjoy it. I guess I'm hard on my RC students by training them similar to the way I do my full scale students. I teach that all landings should have a nose high attitude but we do airwork first and that includes doing stalls with their trainer as well as proper recovery. Being able to use the rudder is a must for them. And I guess what you are saying here is probably the safest way to keep people from a stallspin by having a fairly high approach speed and really to teach someone cross control techniques one would really need some hands on with an instructor and buddy box. I am by far not the best RC pilot but I do try to practice the same techniques I use in the full scale because I've learned that bad habits are hard to break. Anyway I don't really agree with the statement of the nose gear but that's ok we all have our opinions I guess, and as long your technique is helpful then I guess that's good

Sorry I keep typing but I reread your post and I think we could possibly on the same page but we are attacking the problem from different angles. We both agree most modelers have an approach speed to high I think. And that will end up in a high speed wheel landing in a taildragger that unless you have flaps most taildraggers should land pretty well three point especially with a symmetrical air foil like a super d. Trust me if you tried to wheel land a pitts you better have a loooooooong runway and quick feet. Now our airtractor has flaps and does well landing with a wheel landing. So what in saying if a pilot will learn to control the approach speed first and then should learn how to side slip the aircraft and then be able to apply in appropriate flying conditions.

Are you thinking that I endorse nose wheel first landings ?
Of course IDONOT.
I feel you are not reading me properly.
I was saying that many model pilots approach too fast and flare too low thus often hitting the nose wheel before the main gears.

I am definitely not endorsing that.
I also said (wrote) that if the model (or full size) is exposed to that condition then a tailwheel model may bounce undamaged while a trigear can get damaged.

Suggest you read my postings again. You and I are teaching the same thing.

Zor

okay i guess its the way it was worded that made me think that, I see what you are saying now that IF you land too fast then the taildragger would be less succeptable to damage and that makes sense. sounds like we are on the same page then i just didn't want someone to get bad information and learn the wrong way. Sorry i misunderstood you.

I've built and flown a couple of these. I'm still flying one that I built back in 2001. They are great airplanes but require a specific skill set when flying. To answer your question about the struts, yes! They must be made to be functional and not just for looks. Consider using after market airfoiled metal struts that will actually carry a load. We modified ours using 1/8th inch music wire as the load bearing mechanism, and the wood was just for appearance. Also, I'm a big fan of horsepower, but the 55 is too much for this plane. We started out flying them with Moki 1.8s changed them out for OS 160 fx and now I'm flying it with a CRRC 40. Still too much but at the time I got that engine I hadn't been initiated to the Syssa 30. That would be the perfect match in my opinion. On the engine selection topic, the recommended engine size in the instructions is way off. I can't imagine how difficult it must be to fly if it's underpowered, (120 size engine).

No problem "brenthampton79".
We sometme read fast and are left with a first impression that is not as written.
In the old days in elementary school I attended we had to analyze sentences and write in our own words what we understood. That was part of language classes that my children never had. Formal education has changed a lot and not for the better. These days teachers have to go to the internet and wikipedia to keep up with the kids LOL.

Model Decathlons are generally over powered and more sensitive to control if we compare to full size.
It is a lot easier to fly the full size than the models. That does not mean that a model pilot should get in a full size and attempt to fly it without having training from a qualified full size airplane instructor.

No one rolls a full size Decathlon at two full rolls per second .
It is hard to tell if it is a fast "slow roll" or a "snap roll".

It has been found on the original full size that some fuel tank installation had a mechanical support problem and doing aerobatics was doing damage to the wing ribs.

When the local club acquired a Citabria (boad of directors decision not knowing the club staff qualifications) it turned out that I was the only instructor with experience on tail draggers. I learned to fly on Cessna 120 and 140 when spin recovery was part of the curiculum and of the flight test. The spin had to have a minimum of thee full turns before recovery. Those were "The Good Old Times".

I was originally teaching on 120s and 140s and Cessna 170 and J3 cubs.
The Bombadier brothers of "skidoo fame" in Valcourt , Quebec bought a J3 and made a runway behind the Skidoo plant and became my students.

Most know of Bombardier present situtation in the aviation field.

When I moved to Ontario province in 1965 theflying club had three Aeronca Champs and two grass runways 1800 feet long.

I have no interest in building a model Citabria or Decathlon having flown and teached on one for dozens of hours. My next project is a Twin Comanche (my avatar) . I used to fly one when first hired as a corporate pilot.

Nuff said ___all have a great day ___

Zor

Edited to add a paragraph
End

yeah the super d up to 95 i beleive had the fuel tank problems but im sure the newer ones do too, they just havent found out yet. My brother and I own a 2001 citabria, its fun for lazy acro but definately not like the pitts we had, which was a lot more acustomed to snap rolls and other manuvers.

<span style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;"> Just having fun.</span></span>

Hi futabaflyer83,

Having fun and enjoying what we do is what all aspects of this hobby is for.

I am curious looking at your pictures; the one on the left gives the impression that the fuselage has a curve.
Like if it is not symmetrical to a flat vertical geometrical plane through its center.

Is that an optical illusion due to the camera angle of view ?

Zor

<span style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: medium;"> It is a bad camera angle and the bulkheads have not yet been sanded to be flush with the top of the fuselage. This is my second giant scale kit. I don't remember how many kits I have built since 1984, there have been a few. Power will be supplied by the DLE 30 which should arrive friday. Guidance will handled by a futaba 7c. I can't wait to get this bird out of the hanger. </span></span>

The DLE 55 does not overpower my tried and tested Dynaflite Super D and no added weight was needed for balance. Moving the rudder & elevator servos above the aft hatch, the 5 cell battery pack behind the fuel tank,and the fuel tank centered over the CG was perfect for a neutral balance. It is all about fun, call me a hot rodder, no harm, no foul. It is a home run, every flight, watch it hover, top that!