Drexus

Is there a current STOL design kit in the market?

How much interest is there in a STOL kit?

The benefits are clear, is it just the added complexity that people don't like?

khodges

My Feedback: (1)

Ikon N'West (www.ikonnwst.com) makes a 1/6 scale Pilatus Porter. 89 inch wingspan, .90-1.20 power, 15-17 lbs. Don't know price. If it flies anything like the full-size, ought to be a good STOL build.

ICE_MAN

Vmar makes several that could be torn down and built how you like.. I Know of the quality but its fixable.. also nothing beats a good Piper Cub

cheechukranch

What about the Polish PZL 104 Wilga in 1/4 or 1/5 scale? Very popular in Europe but not available here in kit form. I flew in a tandem glider out of Queenstown NZ and this was the tug...a very cool plane with incredible STOL performance.

BDS

I would love to purchase a Zenith CH701 or CH801 scale kit. This will probably be the full scale kit plane I end up with, and a model would be awesome.

www.zenithair.com

TexasAirBoss

My Feedback: (22)

I'm not cetain if you were asking about scale kits only.

Those Sig Kadets can be flown off a patio.

Volfy

My Feedback: (23)

would love to have a 1/4 or 1/5 scale Wilga, too. It is the quintessential STOL aircraft. The Wilga is wayyyy uglier than the runner up choice - the Fieseler Storch - but filled to the gills with character... and yes, it does look like it has gills.

khodges

My Feedback: (1)

Man, you got that right. UG-LEE. I was going to mention the Storch as a good STOL plane that there are at least plans (Ziroli) for. I'm looking for something in a Helio Courier or Turbo Stallion. After seeing what the Courier can do, it's got my vote, plus it's PRETTIER BTW- does Wilga mean anything in English (Storch= stork). The thing looks like it was skinned with surplus roofing tin. Talk about something you could hover over the runway, though.

cheechukranch

A Wilga can tow 3 sailplanes simultaneously and land in your backyard...

Ugly...yes; functional...absolutely!

donkey doctor

Hello; I would like to see a Lysander kit. I have seen a few fly, and am very impressed with their STOL capability, I also like the appearance of the Wilga and the Storch, so ugly they are charming.

BDS

There is currently a wilga kit out there... http://www.icare-rc.com/wilga.htm

designed to be an rc towplane for gliders.

Sean.

vicarh

My Feedback: (1)

BDS,

Once (maybe twice) I wrote to Zenith Air asking for details on their 801 to try and design one but they did not even respond. Based on the full size performance it would make an awesome subject. Have friend who flew them in Africa for a group of "flying doctors" and he says, and I quote, "the damn things can fly everywhere and anywhere..."

Vicar

Volfy

My Feedback: (23)

Yes, I have seen that one. Looks like a very nice kit. However, I was really hoping for one with a price tag slightly south of $999.

Their are also a few German kits available, but they are equally expensive.

campbec

Hi Volfy

Having chased up the pilot of the tow plane I was describing from the glider event I attended the icare kit was the one he assembled. Sorry I can't be more help but it was an awesome tug.

Cheers,

Colin

Drexus

We got this initially for some of the companies we approached. The challenge there is they do not want to release accurate information on a product that is currently in production. (bad business sense if they did) If I were a competitor to their products, that would be the first thing I would do... get their plans.

Other things here are interesting. But I should note that we have a policy on only designing non-military aircraft. So the Storch and Lysander are out for this one.

Polish PZL 104 Wilga - Modelling nightmare - Can't do it in the traditional sense without going all plastic moulding.
Pilatus Porter - I want to be proud of what a plane looks like.
Zenair CH701 - That's interesting. I kinda like it.

These are all really good ideas.

But back to the question: Do modellers shy away from the kit due to the added complexity or niche category? or is it the manufactures that shy away from it for the same reasons?

vicarh

My Feedback: (1)

Ken,

Your Tri-Pacer looks excellent. It is unfortunate that your design leaves out a segment of the hobby population, giant scale builders. Do you have any plans on offering the Pacer or any of your future projects in 1/4 scale or larger format? I think that the CH 801 will be a great subject, if you go ahead with it please include me in your prospectives list.

Vicar

BDS

Ken,

due to the lack of availability, I would say it is the kit manufacturers who are shying away initially. If you look at all the stol kits out there, most are pretty traditional designs that dont stray from traditional building/designing techniques (i.e. - people calling a telemaster a stol aircraft).
I would like to kit bash a current kit with fixed slats, stall fence, and dropped ailerons and see the differences. In fact, your T-Rex wouldn't be a bad candidate...
If you go here: http://www.zenithair.com/stolch701/7-rc-model.html you can download a 21 page excerpt from the ch701 manual to help in designing a model. A few people have done this already, and there are pictures on the site. This may be why you never recieved a note back from them, because the information was already there.

-excited to see what happens.....
Sean.

Volfy

My Feedback: (23)

Colin, thanks for the info. I would really prefer a 1/4 or even 1/3.5 scale, as I have a Minarelli 70 twin that is a bit heavy for aerobatic planes but would be perfect for the Wilga. Frisch of German has 1/4, 1/3.5, and 1/3 scale kits for the Wilga, but price and availability here in the US has not been real friendly.

Ken, by being in the kit business these days, you are already in the niche business. The questions are: how many buyers will a new models attract, and more importantly, at your unit cost how many would you need to sell at what price to turn a profit? By virtue of your being a kit manufacturer, your main competitors are of course Sig, GP and other small "independent" kit producers. You need to either:

1. Produce similar kits to the popular big names, but engineer it better (e.g. BTE Venture vs. 4*60)
2. Produce similar kits to the popular big names, but price it lower (very difficult to do without the volume and distribution channels of the majors)
3. Produce unique kits that nobody else, or few, offer (big gamble, but may pay off big)

As for the Wilga, I agree it is difficult to do right, but not impossible. Then again, if it were easy, someone would have done it already. It's popularity in Europe may not translate directly to equivalent NA sales, but the potential is definitely there.

If your intend is strictly sport flying models for the average .40-.60 size RCer, then you should study Andy Lennon's STOL designs (e.g. the Crane, Crow, etc.) published as plans available from MAN. Bear in mind that STOL is no match for 3D for current popularity, so target your buyer demographics accordingly. With STOL, you will be dealing with RCers who are, dare I say, more cerebral than adrenal.

cheechukranch

Ken,
Maybe a little of both? Manufacturers follow trends to make money-- and the current trend is 3D ARF. Modellers buy what's available to the mass market (tower hobbies)...the same stuff their friends fly. Complexity on the bench seems to be a factor the average RC'er wants to avoid.

And with that you have a niche within the larger habitat of kit building-- the group that likes funky, complicated yet sophisticated, thinking outside-the-box designs; but these folks are not quite ready (or willing) to make the scratch building leap.

As a small producer you make one of the choices Volfy so eloquently described...or you do a little of all three. It is common in the craft world that you have your bread and butter money makers and then you have your passion...what you really want to make but doesn't appeal to the majority.

Enter your idea for a scale STOL design. I'll buy one.

BDS

I'll second that.

Drexus

First I would like to thank you for the input. But I want to make sure this tread does not get too commercial. It's not about us but rather a question as to why there is so few of these designs.

I had no idea the price for those was so high. Maybe the complexity of the wing design (manufacturing) is very costly. Still, that is a large price.

I would like to answer your other questions, but I'm sure this thread would be shut down in a second if I did.

From what I gather the CH701 sounds like a choice from users here. I can't say we will go in that direction, any more then I can divulge what other projects we have here.

I know there are a lot of plans for STOL designs out there. Andy Lennon has developed what many consider the elite in STOL design, then again, they were developed by Andy lennon. (Model Design God)

It's just too bad there are so few kits out there for such an interesting market.

Volfy

My Feedback: (23)

STOL doesn't compete well with the likes of 3D, fun fly and scale, because it is short in the "cool" factor. You just don't get much "ooh" and "ahh" with high-tech lift enhancing slats and flaps. Only those who are aerodynamic geeks are gonna get enough kick out of it to spend 200hrs building one to fly.

Now, if you attach an application to that STOL design, THEN you'll have a customer base to speak of. This is why models like the Wilga is so popular in Europe with the glider tow pilots. STOL actually serves a very fitting purpose there.

Drexus

The idea of STOl is to outperform comparable designs (size & power) for speed. With the flaps pulled in and cleaned up, your left with a slippery plane with high stability - thanks to high wing loading. Pulled out dirty, the plane touches down with an amazingly short rollout. If you had 100ft square of field, you can enjoy a days fun with a STOL plane - punching holes in the sky. It's like having an F-104 for the sky and a CL-415 for the landing.

Volfy

My Feedback: (23)

What you describe is not what the type of STOL we have been talking about. I doubt any Wilga or Storch is going to fly fast enough to be mistaken for a racer. Unless you are referring to the jumpjet harrier type of STOL, Short Take-Off and Landing means exactly that - ability to take off and land on short runways, with no implication of straightline speed whatsoever.

A Boeing 747, like most modern jets, has all sorts of lift enhancing devices like LE slats and multi-pane fowler flaps, but I doubt anyone would dare call it a STOL aircraft just because it is equipped with those devices.

Drexus

I knew you were going to say that as soon as I posted it.

I should point out that there are different reasons for STOl applications. Just for the examples you have stated. To clarify, I should have pointed out Andy Lennon's "Crow" or "Swift". Both STOL designs, but very fast with everything pulled in.