Charlie P.

Amen from the choir! I was just bemoaning the last couple Model Avaitions which arrived that so much space could have been used in giving information and images of interesting full-size planes to model instead of five page ARF reviews that could be covered in a single page.

"The wing halves go together and then the servos are screwed into the holes provided and it flew nice." Zzzzzzzzzzz.

Lazy pilots and now lazy writers/reviewers. (I know, it's often "busy" and not "lazy".) They can turn out a $500 article in a weekend instead of two weeks and some building effot.

Dai Phan

My Feedback: (2)

Hello,

I truly believe that ARFs guys who look down on kit builders as being "crazy or having too much time on their hands" are being naieve and ignorance. Conversely, kit builders who view ARF flyers as " lost their roots or spoiled kids" are being ignorance as well. ARFs allow many people including 5 year old kids to get into RC hobby that was not possible 15 years ago. We should not look down on the flyers whether they fly kit built or ARFs. To do so just show our narrow mindedness and you will wall yourself from other fellow flyers. DP

dr_wogz

My Feedback: (3)

I woudl like to also think, that the market will dictate what we want as well.

Remember, we are told we need to be thin, to have super white teeth, take the kids to ... , to wear .... , to drive a .... , etc..

I feel we are becomming a little less self reliant, and becomming more dependant on each other to make our choices, and our lives easier through gimmics & gadgets desing to do jsut that, do the work for us. We, (Cananda & the US) are becomming a lazy bunch... Pre-made meals (including fast food as a staple dietary intake), autromatic cars, cell phones, M$ windows, mail order / online sales, Paypal, credit cards, 500+ TV channels, movies, etc....

We no longer have time to do the things we enjoy, because we have too many things to enjoy!!

blw

My Feedback: (3)

I have to disagree with the comments that ARFs are well built. They aren't. All that I've seen need some kind of work to make them able to survive. I've seen a U Can Do lose the tail section, stab and all, on landing. It was built with hot glue. I've seen wings fold while flying straight and level. How many landing gears to we have to see get ripped off on landings due to cheapness? Just how safe are those skimpy firewalls that barely hold an engine at full throttle?

I also would not want to bring something to the field that looks just like the others back at the hobby shop, or at the field.

I've seen ARFs crash and the owner with no clue as how to patch it up. I've seen some end up in the trash for that reason. I just don't like to see the attitudes towards models cheapened like this.

Yep, RCM folded. And, what was the content about these past few years? ARFS and more ARFs. Dumbed down articles for assemblers who aren't really into learning about model aviation. To me there is no question to why the magazine folded.

BillS

ARF’s give the kit builders something to complain about.

Kits give the scratch builders something to complain about.

Isn’t it ironic that many scale builders generally believe all three groups have airplanes that are not worthy of flying?

Bill

naamanf

My Feedback: (3)

Just ordered my self a new ARF. The 102" QQ Yak. Why? I am currently in Iraq and when I get home I will miss out one the flying season if I have to build a kit. But I am planning on building a 42% Dalton Extra 260 along with a A-1 Skyraider. I really enjoy building and know I can do a better job than any ARF builder. But I also like to fly and am glad that there are "quality" ARFs available to fly.

dionysusbacchus

My Feedback: (25)

I'm sad to see the kit's go but I'm lucky, when I started in this hobby in 1974 you had to build your trainer! I even had to cut the parts out, if you remember the Sig Kadet had the wood stamped but not cut. What I'm getting at is that having to build EVERYTHING that I wanted to fly gave me valuable experience that most miss out on today. Now that I have gained this experience it doesn't matter what kits are available, if I want it I can build it, simple as that. While everyone is flying the same stuff at the field you can feel like a king going out there with totally unique and cool planes, the down side is there are a lot less people to talk about building techniques with. I certainly don't want to hear about someones experiences with putting together an ARF! To each his own, the market will decide what is available and what you will fly, but not for me! Build on!

Dion

HighPlains

My Feedback: (1)

It must be a lot easier to be a bank robber these days, because all the get-a-way cars look the same. One aero jelly bean from Ford looks just like another from Mazda. The same for a lot of the arf's. I don't think that a lot of them are built all that well, but that is mostly due to the overwhelming presence of lite ply. The same for a lot of the kits developed the last 15 or so years. What passes for good design is constructing a box of lite ply with interlocking tabs that a monkey could assemble, then cutting away major sections to lower the weight so it can fly. The only problem is the framework is still heavy, with the added bonus of being so weak that any minor incursion leaves you with a pile of crap to toss in the trash. Give me birch ply, spruce, and balsa and keep door ply on doors.

The positive side of these arfs' - I wish I could trim in moneycote as well as they do. They look too good.

GeneG

My Feedback: (11)

It's funny how people that "Hate ARFS and never touch them" know so much about how bad they are built. While people that actually buy and fly them like the way they are built. Its also funny that if there is a structural failure in flight on an ARF its "Crappy/Low Quality construction" but if it was a kit it would be "Pilot Error or a dumb mistake". I have ARFS that I enjoy to fly. Most are built fine (not great or perfect) but that is not what I am expecting with one either. It doesn't mean I dont build, it means I have more planes than I would otherwise have. Also I can think of more than a few of "Old-Time Builders" I have flown with that built and/or repaired so badly it not only makes me land my plane but put on a hard hat and get into my car!!

TexasAirBoss

My Feedback: (22)

I fly a Stafford Ercoupe, a Pica T28, a Goldberg Chipmunk, and a Kyosho Cap232.

Everytime I unload a plane at the field, someone asks me if thats an ARF. How could they not recognise these models ? 3 of them are model icons from some of the greats. Its like confusing a Shelby and a Miata.

When I finish my Sig Bonanza, (with tip tanks) , I'll tell them it is an ARF and that it cost $129 at Horizon. Sorry, it was a close-out.

And I seriously doubt the issue is TIME. Most of these guys can barely assemble thier ARF. They just aren't mechanical. They didn't grow up around a shop or a work bench. And it is obvious.

You will notice that one of my planes IS an ARF. Its been a pretty good little plane. Its nearly 6 years old and its holding up fine. So my issue isn't that all ARF's are junk. My issue is the flight line is boring. Half ARF Mustangs and half ARF Extra's. We are suppose to be the dreamers of the world, the ones with a little imagination. We are suppose to be the ones that are a little eccentric and spend a few hours in a shop building and testing Lord knows what. We are the tinkerers and the geeks that dream up new machines and new techniques. Technology was born in a garage at one time. We were leading edge. That is our heritage and by damn I'm proud of it.

Did you write that ?

1g1yy2

Hey PilotFighter, I have a Stafford Ercoupe hanging in my shop/garage! It is framed-up/sheeted/hinged and ready for final finishing -- and has been for about 30 years! To make a long story short, my best friends dad had a full-scale Ercoupe in the early seventies. He kept it at a local small airport, and it was destroyed when we had a small tornado come through Nashville in 1973. He decided to get into RC and built the Stafford kit -- but other events intervened and he never finished it. He died some years ago, and I have been storing the plane for my friend who is not into RC.

Yeah, I know this was a bit off topic -- but isn't everyone sick of talking about being sick of ARFs yet!?

blw

My Feedback: (3)

One very sad thing about the ARF mentality these days is that some pretty good ARF designs never make it to kit form for the rest of us. I wouldn't mind a 40 sized Funtana kit, for example. I wouldn't want the ARF version. I saw one lose the rudder and crash.

As for talking about the ARFs that I don't own- I see a lot of them at my flying field. I sometimes end up helping guys get theirs as ready as possible, so I get to see some garbage that needs fixing or replacing. It seems to me that the ARFs are mostly made to fly until they get crashed. I haven't seen many that look like they were intended to last a few years.

4*60

My Feedback: (41)

Thanks for the laughs. I always get a kick out of the anti-ARF comments (not many here actually) and I think....how many build their own engines (so it's OK to have an ARRE..almost ready to run engine) or how many mix the rubber and plastic compounds and mould their own wheels for their models. It's just a matter of degrees. A lot of builders build from kits. Me, I don't understand why you wouldn't start by importing a balsa log. NOW That's building!

1g1yy2

To be an excellent mechanic does not require that you do your own machining, or cast the engine block -- or mine the metals the engine is made from. However it does require that you be able to check clearances and assemble all the parts of an engine, and get the engine running. In short, it requires more than just being able to bolt on the alternator, exhaust system, water pump, etc. to an already assembled engine. To be an artist does not require that you formulate your own pigments, build your own brushes, etc. It does require a knowledge of how those pigments interact, and of brush technique. In the same way to be a craftsman in building minature aircraft does not require that you plant the balsa trees that you build from. It does require the achievement of skill in reading, and often deciphering, instructions/plans -- or for many, in creating a design and drawing their own plans -- and in cutting/shaping/gluing that balsa and finishing the plane to a high standard. Assembling an ARF does not require craftsmanship.

I always get a kick out of how difficult it is for some to understand this!

GeneG

My Feedback: (11)

Do you think Scratch Builders look down on Kit builders the way some Kit Builders look down on ARF assemblers?? That hasn't been my experience with them. It seems that scratch builders like airplanes in general (regardless of type). Maybe its just the scatch builders I had the pleasure of meeting.

When kits began hitting the market, did the scratch builders have the same complaints against them? Where they looked down on?

CTDave

My Feedback: (1)

Yes they do have their place but I would rather build.Now that I have finished fixing the sky raider to the point where it is now an arf again.I should have built a kit,the wing bolts with blind nuts did not even come close to being in line,front piece that goes into wing was out too,control rods bent in between formers and the covering would not iron or stick down,I'm just saying I could have guilt a kit and really made it the way I wanted.I have seen some excellent arf's but I would rather build.I am trying to stock up on kits with winter coming I can retire to the basement with a hot coffee and be very happy with the balsa dust.Oh it is not just arf's that are bad I have a telemaster 40 I have started and put back in the box 3 times so it runs both ways.

horace315

My Feedback: (15)

IMO i think an arf cant come close to a scratch built or kit in quality.they will get you flying a lot faster.i have purchased a few arf's and always had to correct something about them,with that said i hate to think in the back of my mind was everything that i couldn't get to glued right or good enough.when you build your own you know what glue you used and the quality.the majority of the problems i have seen at the field with most airplanes were with arf's,either things falling off or glue joints failing.i can say that the kits i build are built much better than an arf,i can only speak for myself.i got into this hobby back in the 70's when there were only plans or kits.the flip side to this is if you only build one kit you cant do it as cheap as an arf.kits are getting harder and harder to find anymore.

BillS

One of my friends is an excellent builder but builds AFR’s for his own use. He has just completed a Little Tony and has a KMP P-38 complete but not flown. One must wonder why an excellent builder would select these two ARF’s.

Bill

CTDave

My Feedback: (1)

Not only that but think about it,if you have to take it apart and fix things like reglue reinforce or add then recover it why not build from the begining and build it like you want.I am a little worried now with their quaility and putting my expensive engine and radio in them and hope they stay in the air.Yes kits are getting harder to find,we will probably all end up scatch builders before long.I really don't mind the arf's I just wish the quaility would get better,maybe I should try a arc one so I can see the thing before I cover it.

GerKonig

I fly a couple of ARF's (1/5 J3 and a trainer) and I also fly kit built planes (1/4 scale Super Cub, Phaeton 90). I'm currently building a D-VIII (Balsa USA). The problem for those of us that work very long hours, have one house or two, a family, commitments, volunteer work, etc. is that free time is very, very valuable and you get to a point where you ask yourself Do I go to the field or do I work on my building? ARF gave us the way to go our there FAST.

One bad thing about arfs: since I do not crash too often, most of the times I sell the planes I loose interest in (those that collect dust). Well, BEFORE the ARFs arrived you were able to get more money out of ready built, used, planes in good shape at auctions or flea markets:-)

Kits will no disappear (entirely) but if they do, who cares? We will get plans, wood and just kit them ourselves. AND if we are in a rush, we can always buy the wood allready cut by some of the excellent suppliers out there (Kit-Kutters come to mind). ARF's will not disappear, and they are improving. The variety of planes available nowdays is enormous, just get a old magazine out (let's say over 15 yers old), and see what was available then...

Things are getting better, jus one bad thing, we are getting older...

cmoore806

My Feedback: (82)

Me. I love building. Sometimes the only version of a cool plane is an ARF. In such a case, I have considered buying the ARF and then stripping it before changing it here and there. The problem with this route is that Changing an alreadly built plane ultimately produces a far heavier craft than it would be if I built it from the ground up. So, I would prefer manufacturers to at least offer a kit for each ARF they sell, so we have the CHOICE to build. What newbie wouldnt pick an ARF with all of them out there. All they have to show is build time (time until gratification/disappointment) and the newbie is sold. Oh well, maybe what we need are more dads/grandfathers building with their sons and grandsons...thats what got me hooked.


Chris

CTDave

My Feedback: (1)

All good points,I would just like to see quaility improve.Arf's are good to get to the feild fast but with winter coming the kits come out heck it's better than shoveling snow and what an excuse (I can't shovel the walk dear I'm up to my armpits in expoxy)

Rcpilot

My Feedback: (78)

I love to build a kit. I get a great deal of satisfaction from turning a box of sticks into a flying RC model.

Scratchbuilding, yes, I've done it. It's not really my thing though. It was cool to actually cut the wood parts out and turn it into a kit. Then turn the kit into a flying RC model. But, not really my thing.

ARFs--I love em'!!

I put ARFs together so that I've got something to fly while I'm building the kits.

You can't build a kit for what you could buy the same sized ARF for. You just can't.

ARFs aren't built very well IMO. The covering jobs are nice--but the hot glue and the loose firewalls are not so great.

It just takes a little CA and an extension on the tip to get down in all the nooks and crannies. Shoot a little thin CA on all the joints you can reach. Go in through the servo mounts in the wings and shoot some CA in there too. Use lots of epoxy on the wing joiner and the tail section. I usually find something to beef up. Landing gear block, firewall, whatever.

I look at ARFs like this:

I'll probably crash it before I ever wear it out.
It's quick, and I can fly while I'm building a kit.
You need to add some tri-stock or CA here and there.
Your basically paying for a framed and covered airframe.
Most of the hardware is junk and I replace it. Just my opinion.

Just go flyin' and try to get someone else hooked on flyin' too. Ain't it fun?

50%plane

My Feedback: (5)

Arf's don't have poor quality anymore. I enjoy seeing new modelers come out to the flying field with a RTF trainer and having fun. I haven't ever bought an ARF, but I will probably need to soon. I love true scratch building the best, though. Right now, I'm finishing my Ultimate 3D Machine. It's a plane that I've drawn my own plans for and cut out all the pieces.(true scratch building) I can say that there is nothing like the satisfaction of designing your own plane, but I like flying also.

Woops

spallng erors editd bi me

saratoga

My Feedback: (1)

I keep ZAP, Monokote, and Balsa running cause I crash hard!! Well, not with that last crash in the Pacific. I came to this forum looking for kit sources, the ARF supply just doesn't cover it for me. No DO335 arrows!!!... Kit Cutters just might cut it. Can any one list additional sources?

A word on ARFs. I truly enjoyed Kyosho's Viento. The wings were beautiful and the fuselage took well to fiberglassing (about 10 times over). I just lost it in the ocean and may pick up a hotliner ARF - Sprinter. Kyosho simultaneously stopped selling them in the US. There are very nice ARFs coming out of the Czech republic. BUT all together many of what are sold are truly junk and lifeless.

I chanced upon a gathering of flying model builders once...no mistaking the quality and craftsmanship...they're not going away. Here we are.