Falcon, do I detect a note of scarcism in your post? <g>

Jerry

Nothing against you guys. Just a "not so good day". Sorry.

If there is a market for kits it will be served. If it is too small for mass marketers to bother with then others will step in. The invisible hand of the market always sorts it out.

For example, it looks like there is a trend in large scale models for the designers and kit cutters to be entirely independent. But you can still get a kit (or sorts) if that is what you want. Maybe thats how things will go. A handful of popular designers and a separate pack of kit cutters.

Okay, here is a wacky idea: the kit market could goes completely "cut to order". Log on to a web site, select design, submit order, computer charges your card, computer queues up your order on the laser cutter, computer sends printer the plan, computer generates a packing list with the misc. hardware items, accounting system automatically cuts a tiny check for the copyright holder on the plans. Human packs the box. A few days few days later you get a kit in the mail. It's up to you to download and print the manual if you want it. No production runs to schedule, no stocked kits sitting on a shelf tieing up money, no distribution worries. Quickly, everyone figures out who the best designers are, who the best kit cutters are, and the old fashioned kit companies (who depend on gigantic production runs to make things economical) disappear.

I think this race has already started.

Am I crazy?!?

I'm a Robotics Engineer. I love the idea.

Kit cutters! Works for me.
Edwin

I think the kit manufactures have been their own worst enemy
in alot of ways. I am just an average builder that likes to follow
a logical sequence of events while building. I have built alot of
kits that were less than user friendly in both the plans and
instruction book catagory. I usually muddle through the issues
but it makes for a less than enjoyable building experience. I would
rather build a kit than buy an arf but the arfs have a definite
advantage. I hate having to try to get into the head of the person
(or persons) that wrote the manual to try to figure out what they
are talking about.
Hopefully the newer laser cut kits will help to alleviate some of
issues as long as the instruction manuals keep up.
If it weren't for CA glue I probably wouldn't be into building
at all.
My 2C
Sam

I just got into flying and building about 4 months ago. I read and took a lot of advice from here and then bought both an ARF and a kit at the same time. The ARF allowed me to begin learning to fly very quickly. In the evenings, I was building. By the time I had finished building the kit, I had gained enough flying skill to fly it successfully. I'm now building my second kit. This approach has worked very well for me. After building my Sig SE, I was better prepared to make some necessary repairs after a particularly hard landing on my UltraStick ARF. ARFs have their place, and I believe we should encourage new comers to use both ARFs and kits. ARFs get more people into the hobby quickly, and kit building develops our skills and knowledge to help those new comers. Just my 2 cent worth.

well im just about to the covering stage of my first kit. an ace simple series ultimate.

got the fuse built and the wings together (foam wings) all I got to do is hing everything, cover, and add the radio/fuel tank/linkages and it will be ready .... to sit around till spring

Next is a Sig Fazer, then a old Ace aerocommander shrike (foam wing, 2 0.061 engines) then a old twinstick.

I started off with arfs but i think i might get into this building stuff more.

Unstable....GOOD FOR YOU!!!!

And you never know when a nice warm day may appear during Dec. Jan or Feb :-)

Jerry

I just finished my first kit (G/P PT60) since I was a kid and I absolutely loved it but when I went to the store to inquire about another kit I was discouraged by the salesperson because he thought the ARF's are so much better built than kits. Thank God for this sight and the internet as I was able to ask and research my next kit (TF P51D 1/7th scale). I bought it today and will build it while the local club I just found teaches me to fly. Newbies can and do have the patience to build kits but it wouldn't hurt if the stores stopped discouraging those newbies who aren't as determined as I am to enjoy all that this hobby has to offer namely the pride and joy of a well built plane that fly's !!
Ron

When I got into the model hobby back it the 50s there was no such thing as an ARF. Luckily there was a real good model craftsman that lived down the street and he taught me some of his considerable skills. If you wanted a model built you made a deal with such a builder. The usual deal was you bought 2 kits and the all materials to finish the 2 planes and you got one finished model out of the deal.
The first ARFs I bought were a pair of Prince 25s from Indy RC back in the mid 80s simply because they were very cheap....about the same price as a .25 sport kit. These were my "disposable" fun airplanes. Actually flew well and quality was not too bad but not anything near the quality of modern ARFs.
As to the demise of kits.....we are loosing the old craftsmen and with the fast pace lifestyles there are fewer apprentices with the time necessary to learn the skills. There is less & less demand on kits and the short production runs and large investment in tooling to produce them results in a higher cost to make the kits and a higher price to the consumer. The converse of this is true for the ARFs due to their higher demand.....now you have good ARFs selling for less than he price of the kit and materials to build it. So, sadly, I predict we will continue to see this trend.
PilotFrog

The ARF manufacturers must still make a kit to provide to their builders who then produce the ARF models. Certainly those builders must be paid something for their work. (at least as much as it would cost the manufacturer to put the pieces in a box and sell as a kit)

So why cant the ARF planes be available in kit form as well to give the end user a choice.

amen.

I have been modeling for several years but recently bought my first ARF. I crashed the Extra I had been flying and it was either buy an ARF, or search for something used, or not fly at all due to work, wife, kids, etc. Like a lot of people, I would rather build my own plane but just don't have time. One thing I've noticed with the advent of ARFs is that it seems like a lot of people move up to more aerobatic planes sooner than they should because it is so easy to just go out and buy it. I think it's a different story when you have hours and hours into building the plane. You tend to think a little more about what your next plane should be based on your current ability. I've seen more than one person at the field who just didn't have enough stick time show up with an Extra or something and put it right in the ground. They shrugged their shoulders and said they would just go buy another one. In the assembly booklet with the GP Wagstaff Extra I got it has a reminder to make sure you are heading in to the wind when taking off. Doesn't it seem like if you are going to be flying something like an Extra that you should have enough experience to know that? I am not bashing ARFers, or saying no one who buys an ARF knows how to fly . As I said, if it wasn't for ARFs I wouldn't have what I have. Just seems like ARFs make it much easier for people to get in over their heads. Just my observation, that I'm sure others out there completely disagree with.

vtsmx

each has their own opinion and has the right to speak it---good point though. I have a half /half of arfs and kits I fly. I have a arf and bashed it to look like a reno racer--kinda--i have so far most likly over 10 hours in to workin on it making mods, and fixing my dumb mistakes. if i feel anything is wrong in flight or see some thing wrong on the ground, it lands or is a fixed and if not fixable-it dosnt fly. Im building a citabria and i feel so proud of it because I built it, put my time in to it--blood--sweet--anger --ect--not some jap over seas--no offense to any japs--I cant spell worth a crap--thats why I spelt it like that.

What most here did not seem have noticed is that the demographics of the country is changing.

Nowadays, people are most more mobile and tend to live in smaller places than days of old. Alot of you (I bet), particularly the younger crowds, may live in 1b apts and/or condos than traditional 3+ room houses with garages or workshops. It's hard to break out the stuffs and build a 40 size plane on dining room table night after night etc...

The developments of the ARFs have been a good thing to this hobby in general. I just don't believe naysayers from the the so-called Good-Old-Days crowds. If this hobby is to survive and thrive, it will have to attract young blood, or it will go the ways of the likes of ham radio.

I built an arf once just to try it. Ugh I still had to do all the stuff I don't care to do and missed all the fun of building the wing.(my favorite part)

I Love building but I don't hate ARF in general. About ten years ago their seemed to be a market for ARC (almost ready to cover) whatever happened to those.

For me that seems to be the most frustrating part about ARF's is that whenever I go to the flying field I always see 5 Cap's and they're all the same paint scheme. Why no put that back into the hands of the "modeler". Makes more sense to me. I'd love to go out and buy something like a Venus .40 if I knew that if someone else brought one it wouldn't look exactly the same.

The one thing that seems to be lacking here is anyone mentioning that almost no one at all builds from plans anymore. I've got lots of ideas and plans kicking around but have you seen the price of Balsa these days. At least up here it's horrendous.

Another advantage of ARC is that you can check the framework for bad glue joints & make mods without having to uncover and then recover or patch. But the price of covering material must be factored in and you can usually buy an ARF almost as cheap as the ARC. An example of this is/was the TT Fun Extra. The ARC & ARF versions are around the same price. The ARF is a piece of junk....the covering is shelf paper, the web in the wing has the wrong grain direction, and the tail structure needs reinforced. Many bought the ARC and corrected the shortcommings and put on good quality covering but when you factor in the extra expense you would be better off buying a properly constructed ARF funfly with real iron on covering......to say nothing about your time.
As for scratch building....its very therapeutic .....if you have the time. As far as balsa prices.....if you mail order you can get the balsa at a fraction of the cost of the precut kit. The disadvantage is that you cannot select unless you are near a wholesale supplier that also sells to the public. But if you buy from your LHS you are going to pay twice the price and it begins to approach the price of a precut kit. If you do lot of scratch building like I USED TO it pays to buy mail order in bulk and then you can grade out the balsa and that usually works out well.
PilotFrog

Hi, new to the forum, but not to the hobby. Been building & flying for 30 years or more, never built an ARTF. For me, the building is not a chore, but a great pleasure. Having a final product that I can take to the field and fly is almost a bonus! I see it as two hobbies which dovetail neatly together.

I don't have the need to 'save time' by going 'ARTF'; what would I do with the time I save?

Personally I don't think it's about time or cost. Just consider, as already stated that it's really two different hobbies. Modellers enjoy a good build, rc pilots enjoy a good fly. Some enjoy both. Nobody is better or worse, just different aspects.

I'm a builder but have no aversion to ARF's. My second trainer was an arf; after the first one refused to repell the ground I've built all my others solely because I enjoy that part of the hobby.

We had this discussion at my field. I took on a challenge as I'm a slow builder because I hate to rush.

The deal was to start/build/cover and fly a Sig Fazer in 14 days.

It can even be done quicker but even I was amazed how quickly things went together. Anything is possible, just enjoy the hobby.



Bob aka Nuker

The fact of the matter is, Arf's are here to stay. Their quality (in most cases) has improved vastly over the years, and they afford many of us the chance to fly when building is not an option for whatever reason. I do like to caution people to buy from a reptuable company, and avoid the ones that have bad track records.

Oh don't worry I've pretty much finished with the DOWN WITH ARFS thing I was on before, to me now my pet peeve is seeing a nice airplane I'd like to have but not having the choice to buy it as a kit, ARF or ARC. If someone out could do that they'd have it made.

But a Utopia never works oh well.

I decided to get into this hobby in my upper 20's. I grew up in a household where we did a ton of woodworking projects and I appreciate the joy of a good build. That being said I've heard the quote at the field "don't put more plane in the sky than you are willing to lose.". For many people "more plane" means "more money" and while that is true for me my time is worth money too and being able to have my first couple of planes be ARFs has allowed me to enter the hobby and progress much faster than if I had to build each plane.

I now feel confident enough as a flyer to put the time and money into building my first kit. While I know it is an ambitious project I have started on a 1/8 Scale Pica Corsair and hope to have it complete by summer.

Even though I am starting to build you can bet I will have an ARF handy to attempt that first time trick, or for the first flight of the season....

My $.02

I am new to R/C, and I must confess that my first trainer is an LT-40 ARF. BUT, I have my next plane on the board right now, and am almost finished with the bottom wing. It is an older kit from Midwest, called the "Beer Cat". It is a sport biplane modeled after a plane that was a Reno racer. Calls for a .50 engine. I bought this kit several years ago, and just never had the time to start it. I bought the LT-40 as an ARF becasue I wanted to get in the air quick and start learning so I would have some flight skills developed before Spring rolls around. My problem is that most of the aircraft that I like and want to get only come in an ARF kit. Take the GP 1/3 scale Pitts, for example. It is the ONLY decent sized Pitts kit out there that I can find that doesnt cost $1500 like some of the large scale aerobatic planes do, and it is ONLY available in an ARF. I really like the 33% and 42% Weeks Solution bipes that simodels is offering plans and short kits for, but that is a bit above my level of expertise, and probably will be for a while. I have built model airplanes of some type ever since I was very young, so building has always been a bit of a passion for me. It is just too bad that the choices are getting so limited on what is available to actually BUILD.