rainedave

My Feedback: (1)

I'm sure this is old news, but I was just at the revamped Cox website and they claim that they will be selling Pica kits soon.

http://www.coxmodels.com/default.asp

RCKen

My Feedback: (9)

I was at the Cox booth at Toledo when Minnflyer was doing their interview for RCU. I got a chance to talk with them about the return of the Pica line. Good news and bad news. Good news is yes, they are coming back. Bad news is ARF's only. No kits.

Ken

rainedave

My Feedback: (1)

Then what's the point of bringing them back?

RCKen

My Feedback: (9)

I agree, but that's what they told me. They seem to think that all the kit builders of us out here will beat a path to their door to buy the ARF's. NOT!!!! At least not me.

Ken

ptmac3

My Feedback: (3)

I don't see why they can't offer them as an ARF and a Kit. They have to make kits for the ARFs anyway, so just divert some of those "kits" and box them up. Is that too difficult or what? Seems to me they would be filling another market instead of just letting it fall by the wayside. Granted, they will probably sell more ARFs, but don't the kit builders count? If it weren't for all the kit builders over the past years there wouldn't be any r/c airplane hobby to begin with. The way things are going in 10-15 years it will be nothing but plans built aircraft for me, because there simply won't be any more kits.

khodges

My Feedback: (1)

Profit margin for ARF's is triple what it is for kits, when they have cheap labor to assemble them. I wish that they would offer ARC's. Saves me the trouble of ripping the plastic covering off and putting a proper fabric cover on before I even start to assemble the plane. I'm looking forward to seeing the YMF-5 WACO, will probably pick one up.

rainedave

My Feedback: (1)

Yes, building is my favorite part of the hobby and I've gotten to the point where the last five planes I built are from plans. I still might want to buy a kit at some point down the road, especially if it was a nice builder's kit like a Pica, MK or Marutaka. You know, a well engineered winter project sort of kit, not a lite-ply, snap-together box. But paying someone overseas, whom I've never met, to do all the fun stuff for me I just can't see.

Azcat59

I too do not understand why they can't take the "kit" they use to build their ARFs, and simply put the wood and a set of plans in a smaller box, ship it over here and sell it. They could probably get almost as much as they get for the ARF, from those of us that like to build, and they eliminate their labor cost, covering, wheels, etc. Gotta be some profit in there for them, and a benefit to those of us who will not buy an ARF.

Clair

rainedave

My Feedback: (1)

This is a bit OT, but anyone have any idea what the annual salary of an ARF assembly line worker is? From the photos I've seen, it looks like the labor is divided up; one group just glues up wing panels, another makes sure the bins are always full of canopies, etc. It's kind of unethical to even buy the things!

ptmac3

My Feedback: (3)

Pretty sure it's less than the minimum wage in Mexico which is approximately $4.25 per day U.S. Do the math.

rainedave

My Feedback: (1)

So let's say $4 a day; $24 a week (six-day work week); 51 weeks (assuming they get one week vacation time) is $1224 a year gross. If a group of ten worker produced 25 arfs a day that's $1.60 per plane, and say, maybe $25 in materials per plane gives you $26.60 for a product that sells in the US for $250 or more. Someone's getting very rich. Well, I now have one more reason to build.

damifino

Come on guys! Please refrain from stinking up this thread with that old "sweat shop/child labor/shoulda, coulda been made in USA crap". I'll make it short and sweet: The people manufacturing ARF's, where ever they may be, are doing it to make a living to support their families. We do it every day, it's called going to work. If you shop at Walmart, K-Mart, Target, Home Depot, Lowes, etc, etc, you are supporting the very same type of laborors; working in the very same countries, I might add. Why so many ARF's? That's easy, we are too busy/lazy to build our own stuff. If ARF's were built in the USA, most would be B*TCHIN' about how much they cost.

rainedav- Obviously you've never done any production work. I'd venture to guess there are several 10's of thousands of textile and furniture factory workers right here in N.C. who would LOVE to have back their MUNDANE factory jobs. Imagine nailing together chair frames on the line for 35 years. Or gluing up door skins. Or stuffing chair cushions. Or knitting socks. Sewing button holes. I could go on and on....... Almost seems unethical to buy a rocking chair for the front porch now, don't it?

rainedave

My Feedback: (1)

I agree this isn't the forum or the thread to get so far off topic, so sorry about that (even though I did start the thread).

For what it's worth I spent a better part of the '80s doing production/assembly-line work in a table factory. I'm on the side of the worker and always will be. If you re-read my post it will become clear that my issue is with those who get rich off of other people's sweat and blood. And I'm not criticizing the type of work, either; whether it's boring or rewarding is a subjective thing. I also know a good number of people who have lost their jobs to overseas outsourcing.

Granted it's pretty much impossoble to be a consumer in the US without supporting some form of greed, but it's attitudes like yours, damifino, that make people think it's ok. It's not ok when one person is being exploited so that someone else can own two or three summer homes. Blame it on spoiled, selfish American consumerism if you like.

The short and sweet is this: Every dollar has two sides. One is what you get for it, and the other is where it goes. Maybe if more people realized that responsibility, there wouldn't be so many desolated mill towns in my beloved state.

8D3

My Feedback: (3)

The Pica kits I remember were like building from plans.They were craftsmen kits,not builders kits.True projects.I dont mind building so much,but those things were "trees in a box,instructions included".In the hands of a patient person,they did make good looking planes though.

damifino

I think that, for the most part, you and I are pretty much on the same page. The capitalism/economics/greed thing is way too deep a subject for debate here.

rainedave

My Feedback: (1)

Yes, damifino, I think we are. Thanks. And you're right, let's put it to rest for another place and time.

I bet Cox would sell quite a few Pica Bücker Jungmeisters. I know of no other ARF of that plane. The Pica kit is based on Dave Platt's design, right? Gosh, a Platt ARF!? Yikes!

carrellh

Here is a post about "kitting" ARFs
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=4258004

Of course the Pica kits were already designed as kits at one time so dies, plans, instructions, etc do exist for the kits.

In reality, they most likely had to have everything redesigned to create the ARFs in a form that can be factory built.

So, to sell kits and ARFs they'd have to release two different products for each model they chose to do.

rainedave

My Feedback: (1)

Carrell, that's a good point. But before I read that thread, let me ask this. If a worker in a factory can build a model from a kit designed to produce arfs, then why couldn't a modeler build a model from that same kit? Maybe the answer's in the thread you linked to. I'll go read it now.

carrellh

The link is to a post from Bax (Hobby Services manager). Some of the major points are:

the parts are not designed to be assembled in any other way than on specialized jigs made for that particular model

the parts are not made in a manner that makes them suitable for kit packaging

ARF kits have their plans in a completely-different format, more suited to mass-production of the models on specialized jigs. ARF assemblers do not use regular construction diagrams, and in fact, don't actually build from plans. The people who assembled your television or cel phone didn't refer to any schematic or parts diagrams; neither did the assemblers of your ARF model

================================================== ========

The points in the post are referring to taking an existing ARF and offering it as a kit. You apparently cannot just take 100 sets of parts and send 75 to the ARF factory and box up the other 25 as kits.

Cox would have to re-release the existing Pica kits, or possibly even update them; plus produce the ARFs and they are totally different products.

Of course, we know there is at least one manufacturer that does both (SIG). The LT-40, Four Star 40 & 60, and Somethin Extra are all offered as Kit & ARF.

Azcat59

I am not convinced by Bax's defense in the above link cited. And responded accordingly.

Clair

ptmac3

My Feedback: (3)

Well, I read the post by BAX. I can understand. Didn't realize there was such a difference. So in the end it's all about the bottom line, the almighty dollar. It doesn't make me want to run out and buy an ARF though. Haven't bought one yet, don't know that I will. There's just something about that 1st flight on a new aircraft that I assembled from a pile of sticks (more or less) and covered myself. Maybe even bashed a little just to personalize it.