How about what ? You could put a sticker on all them stating that my other plane is a P.O.S. too. Them who can build. Them who can't buy an ARF. If you customize an ARF you still have an ARF. You can't put red silk drawers on a SOW, and pass her off as a GO-GO girl. ARF....What Sandy used to say (You remember Little Orphan Annie's Dog). If they want to allow an ARF to win the Scalemasters, that's their business, but it represents the Dumbing Down of the world , and our hobby. If you don't have the capability or the time to build, why not find something else to do with your time? Tennis does not take a long time to play, nor does miniature golf. Go Fer it. Got a problem with that? Take it to the ARF forum. This IS the KIT BUILDER'S Forum.

Bill, AMA 4720

Would I have to build the tennis racket and the golf clubs?

PS. Love my ARF POS and very much looking forward to getting stuck into my first build.

No one needs to apologize for liking, owning, and flying ARF model airplanes. Nor do they need to apologize for asking if a kit built plane is an ARF. Chances are they admire the plane and would like to have one too. In spite of one man's opinion ARFs are not in general a POS. Most are pretty well thought out, fly good, and look good too. The first ARF a beginner glues together will take 10 - 20 hours of work and present plenty of challenges for the first timer. Most new people want to fly airplanes, not necessairly build airplanes, however a lot of people do become interested in building if they continue to fly.

You know for all the chest pounding about ..... Them who can build. Them who can't buy an ARF ....... at one time kit building was probably looked down on too. I wonder when it bacame ok to use factory cut Balsa planks vs traveling to the jungle and chopping the tree down yourself, then I started to wonder when it became ok to scratch build from a proven design vs designing it yourself, drawing it up, cutting all the parts from the factory cut Balsa planks, then I began to wonder when it became ok to build from a precut kit vs scratch build from the plan, and now I wonder when it will become ok to buy an ARF and fly it ??

As I said, This is the kit builder's forum. Using the arguement that yu need to cut down the Balsa tree is silly. If you can build, you already understand. If you want to discuss ARF's, please do it in that forum. It will become okay to fly ARFs when the people who build are dead. Then you won't need to ask. There will be nothing but ARF's. Happy nbow?

Bill, AMA 4720

Come on guys. Stop tap dancing around here. How do you really feel ?

I asked the question, is it a compliment or an insult. So its important to understand peoples' feelings about ARFs for me to understand the answer.

So far, I have gathered that many people feel that ARFs are fairly well constructed. And some people feel they are not. So the meaning of "is that an ARF" is really in the intend of the person asking the question. Are they honestly naive ? Or is it a sophisticated stab ? I guess it depends on the character of the person that asks .
I have one friend that flys nothing but ARF's. He asked if it was an ARF. There is no doubt that he honestly did not know what it was. And later another member asked the same question. Only this person is not exceptionally friendly and IS a builder. It was obviously a dig. Followed by the usual string of "why did you________" questions.

I have experience both, a compliment and an insult by the same question, on the same day, by two different people with different personalities.

I understand. In my case, with everyone at the field knowing my feelings about ARF's and the people who only fly them, and never build, I would suspect that being asked that question would be an insult. On the other hand, it is easy to tell the built model from the ARF. The ARF has no soul. It is a cookie cutter airplane. It is exactly like many others, and has no individual personality. Those who spend time trying to customize an ARF, are just wasting time. It's a stinkin' ARF. Why bother? If I give you one of my built model airplanes, it's not an ARF. It is well built, and needs no work to be able to fly safely. It will have character. and it will be a gift, not an ARF.

Bill, AMA 4720

Stickbuilder

I cannot believe anyone can be so close minded & ignorant.

I have been modeling aircraft for 19 years, starting at the age of 16.

My first 10 models were scratch built, all balsa, ply, foam, film & paint. Formers etc, cut from ply with a knife, no fancy power tools for me back then. Most of my construction was with PVA glues, as this was all I could afford making burgers at McDonald's after school.

Model #14 was a scratch built ( off Sig plans ) Liberty Sports, including a fibreglass cowl that I made my own mold for. ( Age 18 ).

At the age of 25 I represented my country in an international pattern competition using a kit built glass & foam model.

Now at the age of 35, with a wife ( a very supporting one! ), my own full size aircraft & many other things in my life, I own 4 ARF's.

I am currently "wasting my time" doing a make over on an ARF. I mistakenly thought I could use this project to practice some detailing & weathering methods before moving onto my Pica 1/5 scale Mustang "KIT".

I ( and I am sure many other modelers with ARF's ) take offense to your attitude "Those who can, build. Those who can't, buy an ARF". ( I seem to recall your words were a little less correct than this, but despite your bad english we all got the message.)

You seem to have a wish that this hobby is better to die out with your generation of "kit builders", than to accept new people with whatever type of model they have, & then hope & ENCOURAGE some of them to move on to "kit building" or even scratch building.

Take it from one that you classify "who can't", maybe you need to find something more in your life other than KIT BUILDING.

Cheers

PS. I also play golf & tennis!!!

This has been discussed before but its worth mentioning again. Whether or not ARFs upset you is directly related to how much you liked RC Flying being a "Niche" hobby. Back in "the day" you felt special that you were one of the few that had the skills to build and fly a model plane. You got together with like minded fellows and "Strutted your new Plummage" out at the field and loved every minute of the time that people "oohed" and "aaahed" at your building skills.

Now, anybody with the money can buy a plane that looks as good as the one you put months (years) of work into. You can claim that its not true and that "built is better" but truth be told ARFs LOOK great. Build quality may vary but they LOOK great and you can't see the quality under the covering at the field. If you build kits be proud of that fact. If you ASSEMBLE ARFS be proud of that.

I feel so bad for people who's entire identity in this hobby is being threatened because of ARFs. The problem is not with the ARF but with your attitude. Building is still a skill worth maintaining. You should be proud that you built a great plane. I'm not sure if you noticed but for the longest time this hobby was filled with the "too rich" to work and the retired. Now its filled with more and more kids and fathers flying ARFS. If you want to wait until all the "Builders die" before switching to ARFs than you don't really care about the hobby at all, becuase it would be dead too.

People want to work, raise a family and fly model planes at the same time. Maybe even take a few years to build a kit. They don't have the ability to spend 8 hours a day on a plane. What is wrong with that? Instead of RC Modeling slowly shrinking into a smaller and smaller niche before disappearing altogether, ARFs brought it back to life. Mock Chinese knockoffs all you want but but for every old Kit company that died, two ARF companies have taken their place. More planes for everyone. There are a ton of new companies in this space because they can make money and supply us with planes.

Instead of complaining that ARFs are the end of RC you should get out of your workshop and thank them for saving this hobby for your grandkids.

Time marches on......

It's definately true that the skills required to fly RC has decreased over the years. That's not a bad thing, because we now have 50 times as many RC'er than before. BUT, our distinctive models created by our own hand are now more of a footnote on the average field. It does seem to create a slow burn inside when I hear someone talk about building an ARF, when it is really just a final assembly of factory parts. I also miss the magazine articles on the design and building of models. Reading about the well package components of an ARF and where to slather on a bit of glue does little for me and most long time modelers. Take time to find a few magazines from the 50's, 60's, or 70's and compare them to the drivel that is published today. RC'er then knew quite a bit about airframes, electronics, and related technology. Today, little is required other than your VISA card.

You are 100% right about the knowledge. Today's ARF flyer does not have a good enough understanding about whats under the covering. However for every so many ARF pilots that never look "under the hood" there will always be those that want to know more. Those are the guys that become builders. They understand that their is incredible satisfaction to be had by building it with your own hands. These same people would not have gotten to the building stage without the ARF stage. There is more than enough room for both builders AND flyers. The barriers to entry of the RC Hobbies have lowered. In my opinion that a good thing.

I'm not sure I agree about the flying skills part though. I have been flying since 1980. While not as long as a lot of people, that is enough time to get VERY comfortable with my planes. However, I have found it a challenge to learn 3D flight. Its the same challenge I felt 25 years ago. However, one guy at my LHS who never flew a plane in his life (RC Cars only) , picked up an ARF and started to learn. In 3 months his 3D skills are amazing. Of course he is 20 years younger than me but that is no excuse. This rookie can kick my butt in 3D but I can still take him in precision.

I plan on practicing more and taking him at 3D as well. Flying 3D is much harder for me than learning pattern ever was.

I think the same people that complain about building complain that 3D is not "Real Flying".

New is not always bad...its just new.

One last time. You do not Scratch build using someone elses plan. That is called plan building. You scratch build using plans that you draw, or using a builder's tree. You kit build from a kit, using someone elses plan, and pre cut parts. If you plan build, using a commercial cutter's parts you are plans building from a cut kit. Is everyone on board with all that?

You do not build an ARF. You assemble one. If you wish to discuss ARF's, may I politely suggest that you do so in the forum where someone gives a _ _ _ t. That would be the ARF forum. This forum is not the place to mention those pieces of crap that you try and justify owing and flying. This forum is dedicated to those of us who have the dicipline to stick to a kit and see it through. You, are obviously not one of us. Have a nice day.

Bill, AMA 4720

Oh, and I'm not spending 8 hours a day building. I still play an active role in my business, and I still find the time for an hour or so each day to devote to building model airplanes. We brought up 5 wonderful children, educated them, and saw them become productive members of soceity. I took time to be with and do things with them. Sadly, none of them have much interest in model planes. 2 Grandsons do have a great interest in them as well, so all is not in vain. They are learning to build airplanes too, and they understand that there is more to the hobby than going out and boring holes in the air.

Bad English? I hardly think so. (we actually speak American English, which is somewhat different from your version). That 's not a problem either. I understand where you are coming from. I do wonder, however, why you would become so angry about my perception of this hobby if you did not feel that you were doing something a little less that what you would normally be proud of.

Again, why not take the defense of the ARF planes back to the forum where they belong?

Bill, AMA 4720

Bill

Glad to see you have not disappointed me. You still cannot see my comments are not so much in defense of ARF's, as asking for tolerance of what other modelers choose to do.

You just cling to your one eyed, outdated opinions & do your best to discourage others and make this hobby die, just so you can feel special about what you do.

Cheers

Actually, I don't think that I'm the one that is intolerant of others. I just think that this is an inappropriate forum for the subject of ARF's. I also am not the one that is belligerent in my opinion. I have not reverted to childish name calling as have you. No, I don't build in order to feel special about myself. I do, however, build model airplanes that have character to them. That is something that cannot be said for the cookie cutter airplanes that are known as ARF's. Neither do I subscribe to using child labor to enjoy my part of the hobby. Can the same thing be said for your side of the hobby? That is probably getting a little far into politics for this venue, so I'll close for now. Luck to you.

Bill, AMA 4720

I suppose I should have asked my question in the "club house" or one of the forums that is less technical, less pure and more subjective.

But I did expect answers from both sides of the isle. I don't find any fault with someone for having passion about modeling. I think the underlying truth , the real answer, and the real question, are all related to passion for the hobby. If the passion is about flying, "the question" doesn't offend. If the passion is about the building and the flying, then the "question" can offend. The important thing is that we do share a passion for model airplanes. We are all very fortunate to have this hobby. It seems rather unique in this regard. And often, those most passionate about the hobby are the ones most likely to disagree.

Always a hot topic....

Aside from the loss of an important half of what I consider my hobby, my primary issue with ARFs is safety. Sure most of the high end ones are well built ... note I said "most".

I've seen too many of the lower end knock-offs come apart to stay out of the fray on the issue. Firewall issues, wing joiners, flutter and weak tails lead to unsafe aircraft. Sure, a good builder can usually spot the errors and fix them before committing to flight ... a good builder ... which is becoming less and less common. Which may explain why some here are very uptight....

Jim's point is an important one. Unsafe airplanes are dangerous to everyone. However, there is just as much chance of having a scratch or kit built airplane fail in flight as an ARF. Both share the same problem, bad attention to detail or simple mistakes. In the club I was at before I moved to my current club, there were two fellows that really enjoyed building airplanes. According to them, they were friends since middle school and have enjoyed the Hobby since the 50's. They were both great guys but could not build a plane to save their lives. It's sad to say but whatever shared learning experiences they had taught them both a lot of bad habits. Crooked parts, huge gaps, etc. When they flew, I sat in my car. I have never seen more parts fly off of airplanes. It would have been funny if it was not so dangerous. I'll bet everyone reading this message knows someone like that.

They tried but they were not good at it (and they kept trying!). Today's ARFs are no more dangerous than a kit, especially if you pay attention while assembling them.

As far a losing the building part of the Hobby I sadly have to agree. It is in decline. While it will always be there, it will soon be a small part of an ARF centric hobby. However, that was already happening. Its the decline of the General Hobby Market that brought about ARFs in the first place. ARF's didn't bring the decline in building. Peoples lives have drastically changed. There is a LOT more to do with your free time then there was when RC building was in its heyday. For most people (me included) RC planes are not the only hobby in my life.

What I do see happening is people spending a LOT of time detailing ARFs. Even though they don't build the airframe & wings, the work they do in cockpits, paint and markings is incredible. That kind of attention to detail is the what this Hobby is all about.

Too late at night

I just learned of a wonderful tool at our disposal. It is on the lower left of any post. It is "Block". Once you click on it in any individuals post, all of that individuals posts are blocked from view. I have used it, and now I no longer have to be subject to the posts of certain pompous individuals. [sm=cool.gif]

I quote Stickbuilders lines below in support of his statement above!!!


"If you don't have the capability or the time to build, why not find something else to do with your time? Tennis does not take a long time to play, nor does miniature golf. Go Fer it. Got a problem with that?"

"It will become okay to fly ARFs when the people who build are dead."

"Those who spend time trying to customize an ARF, are just wasting time. It's a stinkin' ARF."

"This forum is not the place to mention those pieces of crap that you try and justify owing and flying. This forum is dedicated to those of us who have the dicipline to stick to a kit and see it through. You, are obviously not one of us."

LOL

I still stand by my original statements regarding Almost Ready to Fly model airplanes. That statement still ponders the question of, "why would you be so proud to own and fly a model airplane that someone else built"? I still have not had a decent answer to that one. Sportstar1, why do you feel the need to defend the practice of flying ARF's in a venue that has no love for that type of model? There is an appropriate venue for those of you who either cannot, or do not build your own models. That venue is called the ARF forum.

If you think that I was being intolerant of ARF pilots in making those comments, then for that , I apologize. I will not apologize for feeling that this hobby is, "Dumbing down". I honestly feel that the onset of the ARF has been the major contributor for that. There is a generation of flyers that have never, and will never know the joy of taking a pile of sticks and planks, and coming up with a nice flying model. They do not learn things about thrust lines, incidences, or even how to reinforce a weak area of a model. They think that pouring epoxy into a void, or dark hole is the answer. Often a light gusset is all that would be required.

I do understand about other things taking a priority in one's life (I did bring up 5 children) but I still think one can find the time to build an airplane. I think that instant gratification has more to do with the problem than does anything else. This is a prime example of the plug and play mentality that is so prevalent today. That's just my opinion. Good day sir.

Bill, AMA 4720

I guess you are saying that you can only truely enjoy a model that you built. WOW! I'm sure that almost everyone on this forum has bought a model from someone else and enjoyed the heck out of it. Just because I did not glue the sticks together does not make it fly any worse or look ugly. It does not mean others at my flying field should not be able to gather around and check it out. Of course I give credit to the builder in the same way that if I'm asked how I did that great covering job on an ARF, I credit the factory. Just to be clear when I do take my "Built" planes to the field I not only enjoy being able to fly them but also to talk about building them.

I didn't paint the Mona Lisa but I can still enjoy her wry smile. According to your theory I guess I shouldn't.

Let me ask a question. Do you know anyone at your club that is only a builder?? I'd say that 10% of my club members do not fly their own planes, or any planes at all. They enjoy building them but not flying them. They always bring a pilot with them to the field. Are they somehow less of a hobbyist because they only build?? Heck, we have a handful of member thats don't build OR fly. They just enjoy seeing and talking about model planes. These are our "Social" members.

I can't speak for Sportstar1 but the reason I am in this forum is because I build kits and like to talk to others that do. In an earlier post Sportstar1 talked about his building history so he has every right to comment on this forum as well. We are discussing the topic of the thread because I believe the question that the orignal poster asked is a valid one. That seems like hardly a reason to tell Sportstar1 to "Get Out and go to the Arf Forum". Is that the same thing you would say to someone that brings an ARF to your field? "Get out and go to a school yard unless you bring a REAL plane." Probably not, you would probably not talk with them at all but huddle together with your fellow "Hard-Line" builders and talk "How much better things were in the old days" and about how much better you and your planes are compaired to him and his arf. If that is the case, I am glad that I don't belong to your club.

I can't understand how you can have been in this hobby for 50 years and never got it. Its not really about the planes themselves. Its about spending time with people that love planes as much as you do. Its about building AND flying AND Hangar flying. At least thats the way it is at my club. I, for one, am glad it is.

The not so subtle difference is that bad builders tend to be self limiting....

A poorly built aircraft is an accident waiting to happen, a poorly built ARF is potentially thousands of accidents waiting to happen, literally mass produced accidents. [:'(]

Nuff said.

Bill, AMA 4720

Did I set this off by mentioning being worried about arrogance?[X(]
Anyway, this little black duck managed to get into the sport with an ARF trainer. An experienced flyer/builder kindly checked it out and flew it for me then taught me to fly. (Even said it was a nice plane!) I pranged it eventually, of course, bought another, while flying the second I repaired the first. Minor repairs to the wing and rebuilt from scratch (no plan, no pre cut parts) about 2/3rds of the fuz, grafted it to the surviving tailfeathers. Pranged the second and I now fly the repaired airframe. I was quite chuffed that it flies pretty well still. A couple more low wing ARFs and an ARF Warbird (with little scratch built add ons)and I am now confident I can fly the kit I am about to spend a couple of hundred hours on. In the meantime I have learnt a lot (reading, RCU and talking to clubmembers) about aerodynamics, radios and engines. I'm an engineer, so I like to know how things work. I'm not a craftsman though, so the kit build will be a challenge given my less than deft articulation of a number 11 blade!. Do I want to wait two years while I finish the kit to fly? No, hence ARFs. Do I check them for build quality? Of course! Have any fallen apart mid air? No. The only mid-air failure I've had was a Topflite spinner which is meant to go with their kit! Where am I going with this... I dunno!
Perhaps when I get more experience I will even design and build a plane from scratch, but I won't poo poo others in the sport for their choice of aircraft manufacture.