HELP!! Edge 540 Geometry is wrong, do I change it?
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From: AkeleyBucks, UNITED KINGDOM
I have a Wild Hare Edge 540 73" span plane that I just bought second hand. The plane looked mint when I bought it and have no problem with it. I stripped the covering because I want to cover it in the Red Bull air race scheme..
With all my planes I check every angle and measurement, I figure that if the plane is all squared I have a good chance on the maiden flight and most importantly aerobatics are nicer to perform.
Am I worrying about the geometry to much? Here is what I found.
Wing tips measure 11mm different to the tail end of the fuz
-Right wing tip is +1/2 degree
-Left wing tip is - 1/2 degree
-R/H Elevator has a twist of -1/4 to + 1 degree
-L/H Elevator has a twist of -1 to -11/4 degrees
Looking from the back end of the fuz, by eye, lining up the the horizontal stabiliser with the wing the left hand side of the stabiliser is down by 1 1/2 degrees.
I can change it all so it's all squared up... but will it really make a difference?? It will probably take about 5 to 10 hours to fix.
The bloke that I bought it off said he didn't get on with it. I suppose it was a bit unpredictable with this geometry.
So what I'm asking is, will it make a big difference?
I thank you in advance for any advice!
Kevin
Forgot to mention in the photo, this is the right hand side and the left side is reversed, the gap is at the back, ie. the tube in the fuz is on the piss... (not square to the fuz).
I know this is an extra but it's the colour scheme I'm after..
With all my planes I check every angle and measurement, I figure that if the plane is all squared I have a good chance on the maiden flight and most importantly aerobatics are nicer to perform.
Am I worrying about the geometry to much? Here is what I found.
Wing tips measure 11mm different to the tail end of the fuz
-Right wing tip is +1/2 degree
-Left wing tip is - 1/2 degree
-R/H Elevator has a twist of -1/4 to + 1 degree
-L/H Elevator has a twist of -1 to -11/4 degrees
Looking from the back end of the fuz, by eye, lining up the the horizontal stabiliser with the wing the left hand side of the stabiliser is down by 1 1/2 degrees.
I can change it all so it's all squared up... but will it really make a difference?? It will probably take about 5 to 10 hours to fix.
The bloke that I bought it off said he didn't get on with it. I suppose it was a bit unpredictable with this geometry.
So what I'm asking is, will it make a big difference?
I thank you in advance for any advice!
Kevin
Forgot to mention in the photo, this is the right hand side and the left side is reversed, the gap is at the back, ie. the tube in the fuz is on the piss... (not square to the fuz).
I know this is an extra but it's the colour scheme I'm after..
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From: Merrimack,
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So Kevin, you have the covering off, which makes the twist problems maybe a bit easier to fix. I would definitely strive for zero twist in wings & elevators. (I presume by "elevators" you are referring to just the movable control surfaces themselves, not the entire horizontal tailplane.) I have corrected worse twists than what you cite simply by reshrinking the covering while holding opposite twist in the piece.
Planes that are out of trim as much as you describe will fly, and maybe even fly OK, depending on what your standards are. But they will not fly nearly as easily as a plane with all surfaces in balance. So if you've gone to the trouble of removing covering, I would say an extra 5-10 hours to get it as straight and balanced as you can will make a significant difference in the pleasure you get out of flying it.
The 4 mm gap in the wing root can be made up by gluing on a piece of balsa sheet, then sanding it down to the desired contour. The 11 mm difference in wing trammel could be unbalanced wings, or crooked fuse. Wings would be easier to fix than fuselage--just add a bit of wood to the short wing. If the wings are out of square, that means wingtube is off, which may be easy to reglue, or not. But it's hard to get the wingtube right without a jig and laser. Unless you're set up for that operation, I think I'd try just removing the twist problems, then flight testing.
The ARFs are getting better year by year, but still not as dependably straight as a careful builder can do in his own properly equipped shop. I presume you got the WH for a reasonable price, so the extra work you take on to get it closer to straight & balanced should prove worthwhile.
Planes that are out of trim as much as you describe will fly, and maybe even fly OK, depending on what your standards are. But they will not fly nearly as easily as a plane with all surfaces in balance. So if you've gone to the trouble of removing covering, I would say an extra 5-10 hours to get it as straight and balanced as you can will make a significant difference in the pleasure you get out of flying it.
The 4 mm gap in the wing root can be made up by gluing on a piece of balsa sheet, then sanding it down to the desired contour. The 11 mm difference in wing trammel could be unbalanced wings, or crooked fuse. Wings would be easier to fix than fuselage--just add a bit of wood to the short wing. If the wings are out of square, that means wingtube is off, which may be easy to reglue, or not. But it's hard to get the wingtube right without a jig and laser. Unless you're set up for that operation, I think I'd try just removing the twist problems, then flight testing.
The ARFs are getting better year by year, but still not as dependably straight as a careful builder can do in his own properly equipped shop. I presume you got the WH for a reasonable price, so the extra work you take on to get it closer to straight & balanced should prove worthwhile.
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From: AkeleyBucks, UNITED KINGDOM
Majortom,
Thanks for the reply. Well I do want the plane to fly nicely,
I did get the plane for a good price so it's worth the effort. All the control surfaces are glued in so the incidence measurements were taken with the controls on. The elevators I started by taping the mass balancers, then finding the incidence is out and twists in the control surfaces.
The wings, stabiliser and rudder are all foam veneered construction, I thought the heat shrink pull method will only work with open frame construction???
Oh the gap with the fuz to the wing....... I forgot to mention in the photo, this is the right hand side and the left side is reversed, the gap is at the back, ie. the tube in the fuz is on the piss... (not square to the fuz). I need to cut out the tube and glue a new one in, squared up.. I think I have high standards... think it comes from work, running and setting up race cars.
If I didn't do the changes and flew the plane and found that it tip stalls and needs a lot of trim, I would be gutted.... [:@] I think I know what I should be doing then..
Just needed some advice on techniques for the foam veneered surface straightening.......
Kevin
Thanks for the reply. Well I do want the plane to fly nicely,
I did get the plane for a good price so it's worth the effort. All the control surfaces are glued in so the incidence measurements were taken with the controls on. The elevators I started by taping the mass balancers, then finding the incidence is out and twists in the control surfaces.The wings, stabiliser and rudder are all foam veneered construction, I thought the heat shrink pull method will only work with open frame construction???
Oh the gap with the fuz to the wing....... I forgot to mention in the photo, this is the right hand side and the left side is reversed, the gap is at the back, ie. the tube in the fuz is on the piss... (not square to the fuz). I need to cut out the tube and glue a new one in, squared up.. I think I have high standards... think it comes from work, running and setting up race cars.
If I didn't do the changes and flew the plane and found that it tip stalls and needs a lot of trim, I would be gutted.... [:@] I think I know what I should be doing then..
Just needed some advice on techniques for the foam veneered surface straightening.......
Kevin
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From: AkeleyBucks, UNITED KINGDOM
Hi,
Just to bring you up to speed, I've done all the geometry alterations.. Now that the wings are squared up to the fuz, they now fit much better... funny that. Everything is 0 degrees incidence or within 1/8 of a degree. I'm so pleased with the results.
As I thought, I under estimated the time involved. I had to make light ply locating rings for the wings dowels and tube. Took some time the results were worth it. It took closer to 20 hours.
Anyway it's ready to be covered, I'm just filling all the hanger dents, rubbing it down. I'm still having trouble finding a darker blue than the profilm pearl blue. [&o]I have the silver, that was easy. I think the blue has to be right.
I'll keep you posted.
Kevin
Just to bring you up to speed, I've done all the geometry alterations.. Now that the wings are squared up to the fuz, they now fit much better... funny that. Everything is 0 degrees incidence or within 1/8 of a degree. I'm so pleased with the results.
As I thought, I under estimated the time involved. I had to make light ply locating rings for the wings dowels and tube. Took some time the results were worth it. It took closer to 20 hours.
Anyway it's ready to be covered, I'm just filling all the hanger dents, rubbing it down. I'm still having trouble finding a darker blue than the profilm pearl blue. [&o]I have the silver, that was easy. I think the blue has to be right.
I'll keep you posted.
Kevin
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From: AkeleyBucks, UNITED KINGDOM
An update,
Have a look at the photo's.
Red Bull colour scheme has come out really well...


Just working on the cowl now.
Kevin
Have a look at the photo's.
Red Bull colour scheme has come out really well...



Just working on the cowl now.
Kevin



