I have a theory about the declining market for kits - some people would build a high end, super premium kit if it was the best available, with the best support from their manufacturer, and not because it was attractively priced.

Consider this. Would you build a top end, specialist, low circulation kit if it was $500 or more, rather than the $200 or $300 it is selling for now (or in the past - many have gone out of business), so long as it had all the best wood, hardware and support available? Maybe a limited run of very special kits, supported by a forum that was well moderated and exclusive to people building that run of airframes? How about $600? Maybe even a guarantee that if you ran out of time / interest someone would finish it for you for some extra$? You might be able to scratch build one but why bother with all that work when someone with better suppliers than you could do it, while providing you with the support you need to get the best result. Perhaps they might even provide a few options on top hardware packages? Who knows. Post your thoughts here.

If this thread picks up momentum and someone with a better understanding of this site wants to turn it into some sort of an informal market survey I'd be interested in the results.

Please note - This is something I've been musing about - I don't own and shares in Great Planes or Tower Hobbies or anything like that. By day I'm a management consultant and I just can't help myself when it comes to thinking about business problems (I love my work).

All the best,

Joel

P.S.: If a supplier decides to take up this challenge I expect to be invited to 'build along' with the group :-) !!!

I buy my kits asccording to several things:

1. The type of plane I want and what's available in kit form.
2. The quality of the wood provided.
3. The quality of the plans and instructions.
4. The quality and amount of hardware.
5. Cost.

Would I pay $500 for a kit that's only really worth $300? Probably not, I'd be a fool. Would I pay $500 for a kit that's extremely detailed, has great wood, and a good hardware package? Probably, that would be a bargain.

My last two Fokker Dr.1s have been Flair kits, both bought at a fire sale price of $150. From what I've seen, the BUSA Dr.1 is worth the $300 they want for it. However, I just purchased a GT Dr.1 for $500, and it's WELL worth the cost. I wanted a Dr.1 kit that I didn't have to bash all to heck to get a scale plane. The GT kit provides that, so it's worth the money.

"Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer cherce."

Dr.1

That segment already exists.

http://www.arizonamodels.com/

https://www.balsastore.com/store/products.php?cat=7

http://www.precisioncutkits.com/

http://www.impscale.com/index.html

http://www.daveplattmodels.com/index.htm

http://www.yellowaircraft.com/

http://www.proctor-enterprises.com/

http://www.meister-scale.com./index.html

http://www.jackdevinemodels.com/

http://www.jethangar.com/

http://www.bvmjets.com/

Many (or most) of the kits from the offerings I posted above are NOT in the $200 - $300 range, but are above that and in most cases well above. I don't see how that helps increase the availability of kits to someone that simply cannot afford those kits. I don't get it.

some people would build a high end, super premium kit if it was the best available

ptmac, I think what he's saying is people would buy and build a kit that is "perfect" but costly over a kit that's slightly "imperfect" but costs less. He's intimating the decline of kit building is due to the quality of the kits available.

I don't agree with that line of thinking. Those people would simply buy ARFs instead. Some of us still love to build, however and would NEVER put an ARF into the air. However, neither would we pay more than a kit is worth. We'd buy plans and the wood from a wholesaler and scratch build it ourselves more cheaply.

There are plenty of high-end kits out there, as ptmac points out, so the market isn't really limited in that respect.

A kit is worth what it's worth. Having said what I did in my earlier post, I'll also say I'll compromise quality IF the kit is a plane I REALLY, REALLY want to build.

Dr.1

ptmac - fair point and to be completely honest I wasn't aware of some of these companies. Together with Dr1Driver your points are clarifying my thinking a bit here.

ptmac - most of these companies seem to be targeting people with considerable building experience. Many of these planes were very large - 1/3rd scale in some cases. Not practical - way too big for most people, too many legal complications (e.g. in Australia anything over approx. 15lbs is subject to strict guidelines and inspections), too intimidating to fly after you've invested a reasonable amount of time in their construction. Jets don't fit the criteria either for similar reasons.

What I'm focusing in on is whether there is a market built around a closer relationship between the kit developer and newer, less experienced builders (e.g. with ARF building experience only) to support them through the experience of building a very well designed, engineered and supplied kit, and leaving them with a plane that is entirely their own, that they could not / would not have otherwise built. Yes, the kit itself may be worth less than the asking price to someone with all the skills, tools, etc - that is a different market. These buyers are also purchasing the improved likelihood of success, the first hand support of an experienced teacher, etc. Sarcastic types would call it building for dummies. I see it as bringing building skills and the building experience back to the hobby.

Throughout this site you'll find ARF builders who lack the experience to build from the resources listed above properly. Not all will have the finances to do something like this - and its not for everyone - but my sense (question?) is that there is a market for people with the interest, time, cash, lack of building skills, desire for membership in a community, and desire for a very unique plane to do this.

I hope this clarifies my hypothesis and I look forward to your comments.


All the best,

Joel

Sounds similar to the model "Skyshark RC" used. As far as I know, they stopped selling kits, and are only doing ARFS now.

Here was their reasoning:

Skyshark R/C Laser-Cut Kit News Release:

As most of you know, the hobby is changing very rapidly due to the wide availability of inexpensive ARFs, ready to fly, and park flyer type R/C aircraft. Unfortunately, kit building has been in decline for the last few years and demand for higher quality kits is also in decline. In response to lower demand, increased material, labor and other costs, we are forced to discontinue our line of warbird kits. We realize that there are still a lot of builders out there, however, we simply can't find a qualified labor force and can no longer personally devote the time it takes to make a kit of this quality. Since we want our business to continue growing, our time is better devoted to more mainstream products. We have always felt that our kits are unique in quality, building experience and flight characteristics so lowering the quality in favor of cheap labor and materials is not something we are interested in doing.

If we have a high enough demand, we may do limited kit runs in the future. If you would like to be put on the list, email us with your name and the kit you are interested in purchasing.

We would like to thank everyone for their support in the past. We hope that you will look to us for high quality hobby products in the future.

Mike and Angie Grey
Skyshark R/C Corporation

I think I see where you're going with this.

In the USA, there are a LOT of trainer/sport kits with medium-to-high quality wood and hardware packages. Most are low-to-medium priced. All are fairly easy to build/well designed for the average modeler who has previously built one or two ARFs or a kit.

There will always be a market for dinosaurs like me who only want to fly something we've built ourselves. We take great pride in saying, "I built it."

Because of time, space, or ability constraints, there is a growing market for ARFs and will continue to be for a few years. Many RCers are away from the house (working and commuting) 12 hours a day. Many live in smaller homes, less than 1500 squares, that don't lend themselves well to a dedicated workshop. However, my first dedicated workshop was in the 4' x 4' closet of a 3-room apartment. I lived alone. I later graduated to the bedroom, sleeping in the living room. If you want it bad enough, you'll make compromises and find a way. Many RCers simply don't have the ability to build a kit, nor do they have the time (see above) to learn the necessary skills.

Dr.1

I do not believe you can bottle and then spoon feed to someone the building experience. That experience can only be learned first hand and over time. I do believe that most of the kit manufacturers out there today are only a phone call away and will assist you, or at least try, if someone is stuck and can't resolve a particular matter on their own. Many of them have forum support right here on RCU. And with good reason - they want you to purchase another kit and recommend their kits to others. Would it be cost effective to have someone there at your beckon call to walk you through the entire build? Even at an additional $300-$400/kit? Probably not. If you still build two left wing panels who is to blame? I'm quite certain the manufacturer doesn't want responsibility for that.

My first build was a Great Planes PT20, not including a rubber band powered Fokker D7 that never got completed when I was about 10/12. The instruction manual that came with the PT20 could well have been labeled R/C Airplane Building For Dummies. It was that good. Doubtful I could have built a $200-$300 warbird kit. With the experience I have gained over the years I would not purchase that same warbird for an additional $300-$400 just because it came with an experienced builder a phone call away. Part of the enjoyment is to figure out how to do something myself.

My answer to the main question is no. I just can't afford the money being asked for these kits and then all the other items needed to complete them. I tend to just buy my plans and wood then scratch out my own kits. I have the time so it isn't any big deal for me.
I have built the Skyshark kits for customers and love the product. I wanted to build there JU 87 for myself but the cost of the kit and the finished product was the killer of the deal. That's A lot of money for A 60 size semi scale war bird but if you wanted one then they were the folks to buy from, great product.
I really like the BUSA items too and for the size and quaility the price isn't that outlandish, great support too.
My hobby money is just too thin be be buying kits today so I have to be very selective. I get most of my own kits at auctions and if the price isn't right then I don't buy them. So far I have been very lucky but still end up cutting my own kits more often then not.

I think the decision to buy a kit, regardless of the price will be answered by the question: "Is it worth it?"

No matter what the price tag there will be people out there foolish with their money and buy it. Partly for the bragging rights. "I spent $500 on this kit, it's wonderful, and by-the-way, I can afford it. Ha Ha!"

The question for the rest of us is: "Is this $500 kit twice as good as the $250 kit?" And followed by "Is it worth it to me to spend that extra $ to get that difference." Is this $50K Caddy twice as good a car as this $25K Chevy?

There are people out there that spend the extra money on "the best" because they think they can discern the difference. They'll spend the extra money on the $500 kit and go to the airfield claiming it flys "so much better" than the $250 kit. When in reality, they probably can't tell the difference. Just like people will buy $100 a bottle champaigne when they couldn't taste the difference between that and $5 bottle of Ripple. But they justify the cost difference because it makes them feel better about themselves. Make them feel like they're a higher quality person because they could spend more money on something...

OK.. I'll step down from my soapbox now.... Sorry.....

Right now I will disagree with VMSGUY, anyone with A tongue can tell the difference from Ripple and anything else!!!

I would absolutely build such a kit, but here's what I'd demand for my money:

1) Every included component would have to be high quality. As you described, for example...wood should be contest grade, and actually BE contest grade, not just soft wood labeled as such. It should be hand selected by a knowledgeable kit builder BEFORE being placed in the kit, with the same care as the builder would use selecting his/her own wood. High quality hardware, and extras, like wheel pants, canopy, etc.

2) Completeness. At that price, I expect not to make a SINGLE trip to my LHS or favorite e-tailer until it's time to start covering, except for basic building tools like glue, blades, etc. In other words, I shouldn't be out looking for a canopy, a cowl, linkages, or wheels. At that cost, EVERYTHING I need but covering, radio equipment, and power plant should be IN THE BOX.

3) Accuracy. Laser cut parts would be essential, and I'd expect EVERY one of them to fit perfectly. At $600, I am NOT prepared to do any "reworking" or "reshaping". Obviously some minor sanding for a flawless fit is acceptable, but cutting new parts, or reshaping existing ones, would be unacceptable.

4) Desire for that airplane : This isn't one you can do a whole lot about, since it's purely subjective on the part of the builder...but at that cost, the aircraft would have to be EXACTLY something I wanted...not "close, I can bash it into one of those" or "I don't really need one, but it flies well", but PRECISELY an airplane I wanted.

5) Uniqueness : Along the lines of 4 above...An Extra 300 kit might be SUPERBLY done, but it simply can NOT be done well enough to justify spending the same money for it that one can buy a HIGH quality ARF of the same airplane for.

=============

Meet all these criteria with, for example, a top notch large scale warbird, or a unique biplane, or something along those lines, and I, for one, would be interested.

Every plane that I build is done the way that you describe. How, you may ask...I choose the wood by hand, I buy only the best hardware, and I cut my own kits. The parts fit, and the end result is worth the effort. Would I pay you to do this for me? Probably not, since I would feel that the quality of the material would be suspect. This is not meant to sound eletist, but I personally think that I take more care in selecting materials and hardware than you would...probably not at first, but later on, when Profit became the main theme to you....what then?

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

Thanks for the list of kit websites ptmac3 .

There are some great looking kits here. I've only built two kits (both designed by Bruce Tharpe) and I thought they were very well done. Having all the pieces cut and pre-sanded was a very big advantage to the Venture 60 kit. I didn't enjoy having to pop-out all the pieces from the Sig Wonder kit.

The less sanding, the better! And spending more money to save time is well worth it in my opinion.

But the problem I'm finding (I've only been building about 5 months) is finding a nice index of websites that offer kits. ptmac3's list is nice, but are there other sites out there? Is there a complete list somewhere?

I only have a small work area, so giant scale planes aren't an option for me. I'm looking for 70-80 inch WS or less.

What was that? Did you say you want some more? Well here's some more!

http://www.bridiairplanes.com/index.html

http://www.carlgoldbergproducts.com/

http://www.rcairplane.net/

http://www.greatplanes.com/index.html

http://www.ikonnwst.com/

http://www.hobbyhangar.com/

http://lazer-works.com/index.html

http://www.lanierrc.com/lrcprivate/

http://www.sigmfg.com/

http://www.sunset-models.com/index.html

http://www.top-flite.com/index.html

It's always been a given that you can buy wood from a place like Lonestar and hardware at the cheapest available source and build a plane as cheaply, if not moreso, than a manufactured kit IF you don't count your time. The plane WILL be better since you have complete control over the wood selection for the purpose and the hardware selection. It will be perfect for your needs. It WILL take longer to build, and will be more "labor-intensive".

Dr.1

Thanks ptmac3 for the list.

If one person, me, is any indication, there is such a market.

Interest = I built dozens and dozens of plastic scale models as a kid.
Time = married.
Cash = I'm 33 now with a decent job.
Lack of building skills = essentially none when I purchased a Venture 60 kit.
Community = my local club is great and it's always fun when a new plane shows up.
Unique plane = I love how my Venture looks compared to the ARFs [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_5723966/mpage_3/key_Venture/tm.htm]see it here[/link].

The major problem for me is having a proper work area. Unless someone has access to a garage or a workshed, it is very difficult to build a plane. My house's garage was converted into another room. It was only a single car garage, but it's enough room to move around and roll out the plans. But I can't put any power tools in the room (belt sander, drill press, etc.) I have to go outside in 100 degree Texas heat to sand, because other wise it goes all over the place ( I share the room with a computer and washer/dryer). It's carpeted, so I can't easily sweep out the debri each evening. Etc. etc. etc. And I consider myself lucky. I can't imagine attempting a Venture 60 or any other kit in an apartment.

I love building and the more thought and craftmanship put into a kit, which results in less build time (AND LESS SANDING/CARVING), is worth every penny.

I'll second this. Except for tools and covering, I want everything!

I'd also like to add that I didn't have access (or didn't know about) CA when I was a kid. That alone has made kit building much more enjoyable.

There is such a wide gap on what everyone wants that it is hard to manufacture a kit to meet everyone's needs,
I personally prefer to purchase my own hardware, I have particular hinges,push rods,linkages etc: that I prefer to use and normally file 13 everything that is supplied with the kits as far as hardware goes. For me to spend $$$ on a kit it must look like a real airplane and have good quality wood and fiberglass parts. When you spend $100-$150 for a kit you must expect what you are paying for and deal with having to buy quality hardware and after market fiberglass cowls and wheel pants. The kit manufacturers are fighting with competing with ARF's and ity may just be a loosing battle by the looks of the recent decline in the numbers of kit suppliers. Look at the Top Flite giant scale warbirds, they take alot of work and modifications to make a nice scale plane and by the time you have done all of that you can build a plans built plane for the same money and effort. If you are looking to build a sport version with little time and money involved then the Top Flite birds are the way to go. Now that being said they are fitting the needs of some model builders but they are not filling my needs
Anthony

yojoelay,
You should by now be seeing a pattern. For your idea to be viable you would have to practically guarantee a Scale Masters winner right out of the box. There's such a HUGE disparity as to what people want that it just couldn't be done. I like WWI fighters and Golden Age Racers, Cubnut (by his handle) likes Cubs, somebody else likes Agricultural aircraft, and somebody else jets.
If I want the best kit building experience available today, the best thing I can do is to buy the best plan I can get (or draw one myself if I have the ability), then get a kit cutter to cut the parts on wood stock that I have personally selected, purchased and given him to use. Of course, I would use my own selection of hardware.
This may sound far-fetched, but it is do-able, and it's what more, it could probably be done for about the money you are talking. Look at the prices some of the manufacturers on Ptmac3's lists charge! And yes, some of them take your theory to its logical conclusion, that for a "few extra $$$" they'll build the whole thing for you. So much for resurrecting interest in building.
Those of us who really love building will continue to support a kit industry so long as prices and quality remain reasonable. If kits die out completely, I'll scratch build from plans, perhaps with the assistance of a kit cutter.

papermache

First off, thanks everyone for your contributions. I wasn't expecting this level of input and its been an education. Some of those kits look alright, I might have a crack sometime.

gboulton - you've refined my vision. Yes, in order to succeed such a kit / experience would need to address these criteria at a minimum. If I decide to go into kit manufacturing I'll send you a note. Don't hold your breath but...

papermache - I agree that the kit industry will have to remain reasonable and responsive to the needs to the consumer. If you're prepared to take a leap of faith, I'd argue that kits will always be available. As long as the plane fulfills the emotional quotient, the price will always be reasonable to someone. Some kit makers who have gone through early retirement may disagree with me on those points. As I said, I'm not in the industry but I see the slow demise of the kit industry as a business problem, not unlike buggy whips. The few who have remained did so through good management (luck played a part, but you must create the opportunity to be lucky).

I disagree with the notion that it can't be done - if only because no one has offered a compelling arguement as to why not. Sure Skyshark faltered, but frankly I don't know enough about it to attribute it to a poorly chosen business strategy. You'd need good, slick tactics for finding guys like gboulton and myself who would part with the money to do it.

I also disagree that it would need to be a scale master's plane out of the box though. I was tremendously satisfied with the Goldberg Eagle 2 trainer I build 20 years ago with hard labour, fingers stuck together, solarfilm doing crazy things that I couldn't begin to replicate now. As an adult on a decent income, would I try for the first time? Not a chance. Not without a decent safety net and a nearly guaranteed, desireable, exclusive outcome.

Last, be certainly not least, I am not satisfied with the notion the building skills must be won over time sweating it out solo in a dusty garage somewhere. There has got to be a better way than lousing it up, carrying it out to the field for the boys to critique, and coming home with 10 different solutions and 3 new problems you didn't know you had to begin with.

Thanks again for your input. All the best,

Joel

It sounds to me as though the person who bought this kit would be someone who had a foot in the scratch builder camp and a foot in the ARF camp.

Allow me to expand - it would be someone with the demands and attention to detail of the most experienced plans builders (I don't think it would really apply to the average kit builder) but someone with cash to flash but doesn't have the patience or inclination to do much of the work himself. I'm not convinced that a large enough catchment of such people exist to make up a viable market.

I myself build big expensive models from plans, so I can spread the costs. I spend as much as anyone else in the end, but I don't like parting with hundreds of (insert local currency here) at a time - it's only a hobby afterall. I do sometimes buy kits though, but they're usually cheap ones of sport models or accurate scale models which leave much of the work to the builder thus keeping costs down. As an example of such a scale kit, I have an Airsail DHC-1 Chipmunk kit I'm working on amongst other things.

I don't know of many people who are fussy enough to be prepared to pay such a premium for something they still have to build themselves who wouldn't want to change something about the kit. I think the only ones I ever built straight out of the box were my first trainers.

As I see it, anyone who wants to build does so for the personal touch and satisfaction. They are bound to make little changes here and there to improve scale accuracy, or practicality, or because they don't like a design feature or whatever.

I don't really envisage much of a market for very expensive kits including someone else's favourite hardware and construction/field assembly techniques.

I would expect (but may be wrong) that people would either prefer to just buy a good quality ARF if they didn't want to do the work themselves, or, if the "I built that" factor was more important they'd prefer to do it all themselves from scratch or based upon reasonable kits which offer a decent basis at reasonable cost and which do not require huge amounts of rework (in which case they'd go back to plan A and start from scratch to get it right first time).

Let's address these problems. First, let me say I started with a 2'x4' plywood table in a 4'x4' walk-in closet. This was in a 3-room (living room, bedroom, dinette/kitchen) apartment. I built two .40-size trainer planes in there. I swept and vacuumed every day, went to the porch to do major sanding, and moved to the dinette table to cover. It was awkward, but I REALLY wanted to model, so I improvised, adapted, and overcame. Since I lived alone, I was able to do pretty much what I wanted with the place. After finishing the second trainer, I moved the workshop to the 10'x10' bedroom. I had a hollow core door on sawhorses, and small oak tool table. I had a drill press and a palm sander. I worked with the door closed to prevent thr spread of sawdust and cleaned up frequently. I moved a single bed into the dinette and ate in front of the TV, which I usually did anyway. Inconvenience, yes, but it worked. My workshop now is still about 10'x10'. I have a hollow core door "spare" table, and a 5'x3' workbench. I have a Dremel sander, 8" band saw, jig saw, and drill press in there. There is a dedicated tool table. Lots of storage space in cabinets and under the benches. I clean frequently and still do major (palm sander) sanding outside. I've built several 6' wingspan models (two triplanes) in there and am currently working on a 96" span old-timer. I have no major problems building in there. I have to be careful when moving the plane parts around, and have to not let the clutter and trash build up, but it works. It can work for you, too.

The one BIG advantage of a small workshop is it forces you to develop good building habits of neatness, cleanliness, and efficient storage.

Unless someone has access to a garage or a workshed, it is very difficult to build a plane.
See above.

But I can't put any power tools in the room (belt sander, drill press, etc.)
Why not? You read what I have in my workspace. All my tools are on stands and moveable. They stay stored until I need them. You don't need big power tools to build R/C. A table-top drill press, 8" band saw, and a Dremel belt/disc sander cover 95% of my power tool needs. I also have a hand-held battery drill and two Dremel tools.

I have to go outside in 100 degree Texas heat to sand, because other wise it goes all over the place ( I share the room with a computer and washer/dryer). It's carpeted, so I can't easily sweep out the debri each evening. Etc. etc. etc.
I favor outside sanding anyway. The lighting is much better and you can see every little imperfection in the wood. Go to Harbor Freight, or another wholesale tool house, and buy a small dust collection system. You can pick one up for less than $150. A visit to the shop vac department of your local Lowe's or Home Depot will get you the nozzles and adaptors to fit your various power tools. As for vacs, get a GOOD shop vac. You rate vacuums on now many amps the motor draws. The more amps, the more suck. Get the vac and use it after every building session. It only takes a couple of minutes to run over a carpet with a 18" carpet wand fitting. You can also build walls and folding doors around the W/D combo. It's done all the time for many reasons. "See, honey, I built this to help protect your expensive W/D."

See, it CAN be done.

Dr.1

Perhaps this is my problem. I should take before and after pictures of my work space when I build my next model. The detritus is amazing.

It sounds to me like you're trying to sell knowledge, skill, and experience in a box. No one has figured out how to do that yet. Building skills are attained over time. Whether you go to the field with a piece of ...er... junk, or with a masterpiece in craftsmenship. You're going to get critiqued on it. Skill, experience, and practical application of knowledge can only be gained through time, and trial. Some of that trial can be painful and/or embarassing. Some not. How you approach that trial is up to you.

I don't know how you're going to gaurentee a well built plane kit when what you offer is the kit. No amount of hand holding, phone support, and expert quality materials is going to overcome the human factor, the unknown skill level of the end-user. Once the end-user takes posession of the kit, quality control is totally out of your hands. Quaility of kit can only go so far.

As mentioned by others, the logical conclusion to your thinking is building the kit for the end-user. That is the only way you can assure the plane will be of the quality your proposal suggests. It almost sounds like your business model should include this. Sell "the best custom build RC airplane money can buy." Advertise "only the finest quality materials, built by expert craftsmen, inspected and tested and delivered to you, the way you want it."

A story to tell. One guy at my flying field started RC planes this spring. Just like me. We took different paths. He went to the field met people, and someone there "took him under his wing." (Appropriate pun!) and together they built his first plane. A high wing trainer, probably a PT-40 or something. I looked at the plane, and all the hinge joints were tight. The plane was a well built craft. I have no doubt while building the plane the mentor had to occasionally step in before he saw the student screw up, or he let the student screw up so he'd learn a lesson. I on the other hand, built my plane by myself in my basement. I did a lot of reading here, and looked at other planes, and asked questions. Mine didn't turn out so well, and recently I had to admit to myself I had screwed up, and I tore the covering off (the plane had never flown!) and rebuilt areas I realized I had built improperly. Now my plane has nice tight hinge joints. And I've learned things from the experience I'm incorporating into my next plane. My plane still hasn't flown. But at least now, when I take it to the field, I won't look like complete idiot. But I fully expect to have deficiencies pointed out to me once I get there. I know it still has some I just can't fix. Morel of the story. Experience is experience. No matter how you get it. And you can't teach it, you can't put in a box and sell it. It has to be gained through time and effort.