The term scratch building is exactly that, designing, cutting, glueing, covering and flying, all from scratch, I would not have it any other way.

Bob

...and who cares who drew the patterns, you're still cutting all the wood from scratch.

Brian

Hi Brian,

Respectfully, I disagree. Kit built, plans built, and scratch built are three different ways of building a plane. If you build from plans and call that scratch built, what do you call a plane that you drew up the plans for and then built it?

Simple- It is scratch built. Why not design built, or unique? This is simply an exercise in symmantics quite frankly.

However, I do get my dander raised when a barfer tries to put barfing into the same categories as building.

Brian

Well I see I touched a nerve here... Good!!

An as earlier poster pointed out about non modeling types preferring the ARF due to pretty covering with no idea of effort involved. I'm not concerned nor do i care what those not involved in the hobby like better... It's like asking which building do you like better to someone who is not an architect... oooo I like the pretty blue one... with no concept of what idesign is or the knowledge involved to create it

I just think we're loosing an important part of the hobby - building - due to 1000's of new modelers (again all good) who open a box, take some bubble wrap off and are starring at real nice plane in 3 hours. I think it's great.. wonderful... Just don't tell me you friggin built it when all you did was turn a few screws, and plug in some servos.

It just bothers me that I think we're loosing a vast knowledge base in terms of building...craftsmanship..... covering... problem solving and true skill in turing our gorgeous aircraft as those of us who do build (and I am by no means accomplished) move on to fly planes in that big field in sky with calm winds and fenshly manicured grass ...

One of my peeves along side 'building' ARF's is todays limited experienced authors is "testing" products. Many authors now have been in the hobby less than five years so know only out of the box ARF's and ready to run engines, radios, etc. For example, slap a new $500.00 engine on the test stand, add prop, fuel and spark. Say "wow" it starts on the third flip, jazz the throttle a few times, tach the RPM then summarize the obvious. That's a 'test'? Only if you think it makes you look smart.

I miss the genuine tests conducted by Clarence Lee, Peter Chin and the like.

I'm not a 'scratch' builder, do build 'kits' and 'assemble' ARFs.

Hi Guys

Have a look at this video ,...................................... what do we call this http://www.youtube.com./watch?v=yWifPWDJ6o8

Michel

Yeah, as someone else already pointed out, when some dork gets his picture in the AMA magazine I'm forced to get, all proud of "building" his ARF it's a tad annoying, but at the flying field, I don't really care. Me and the other builders just keep our eyes out for flyers we think might be turned into real builders. That might be about 1 in 5 flyers. If they aren't the kind of person that will enjoy building, we don't push it. We have one new builder that will maiden her new Slow Poke some time this week.

Well if it's not a kit and there were no plans for it, it's scratch built. And is it EVER. That is spectacular. I watched it twice. Many thanks.

I think the hypersensitivity over terminology is a waste of energy. I ask everyone who’s a builder two questions – Do you build for the enjoyment of building and the personal pride of your finished work? Or, do you build to get your ego stroked and to have the ability to say, “hey look at what I built from a pile of nothing.� It seems to me that those bent on the terminology are in it more for the ego.

I fly ARF’s. To use the term “build� is less cumbersome and anal than “assemble.� Most anyone in the hobby can easily sniff out an ARF. The trim schemes are typically the giveaway. If a guy modifies an ARFs trim scheme and represent it as kit or scratch built, so it goes. They have to live with the lie. It doesn’t hurt you (unless he’s violating rules of a competition).

One day, I plan to build a kit. Today, I have two small kids and don’t have time to build. It can take me a couple of months to assemble an ARF. A fantastic builder in our club, Merlyn Graves, can hammer out a scratch-built giant-scale warbird in 4 weeks. He works 8-10 hours a day on his, I work 3 hours a week on mine.

My point is, focus on the personal pride and satisfaction that comes from creating your masterpieces. Don’t waste energy and anger on the fact that things are changing and “aren’t like they use to be.� The reality is, ARF aircraft are now the aeromodeling norm. That will not change. There will continue to be a smaller special interest of those who build. Take pride in that and use your considerable knowledge and skill to promote your interests. It’ll go a lot farther than bashing the mainstream.

I can understand frustration associated with the decrease of available kits as the ARF movement grows. But, there are tons of plans out there and a growing number of services that will laser cut parts if you provide your plans.

Hi

I think the above post is well said : lets not spoil the pot buy going somewhere we don,t like to be .

I rather be flying with buddy,s and being outside at the field , ......................... I like it that way

Michel

Well, I am 22 and started out on ARFs, but it got to the point where putting together arfs was no longer enjoyable to me. I did grow up around woodworking tools and love tinkering in my shop. After I leaned how to fly on a hobbico avistar, I went right into building kits and building off of plans. The building aspect of this hobby is where its at for me. I would even say I sometimes prefer to stay at home and build rather than go flying. Now that most of the modern companies are not making very many good kits that I haven built yet, I have ventured into mainly plan builing now. Ocasionally I find neat old or vintage kits at swap meets that I will buy, but lately I have just been buying plans off of RCM and other similar sites.

Well said, fly24-7, I admire a guy with a good perspective on what's important. But we're just here venting a bit about a minor annoyance at how the terminology has been watered down. YES, we're proud of our work, who isn't ? Who doesn't enjoy the accolades of his peers? That's what Top Gun is about, after all. That's why they do it and that's why we admire their work. It's that kind of incentive that drives the creative wheels forward. And we get to know who these individuals are. Does anyone know who designed their ARF FROM THE ORIENT? Has anyone met, or heard of the workers who very skillfully BUILD those ARFs for us?

Several years ago, I spent some two months in the heart of downtown, Toronto, Canada. During that time, I visited all the hobby shops and clubs I could reach within several hours drive. One day, I was in a fast food place after visiting a club in the northern part of the city. After my meal, in walks a fellow wearing a jacket with some kind of aircraft logo, front and back. As he ordered and walked to a table, I struck up a conversation and was graciously invited to join him.

As it turns out, the unassuming fellow was Graeme Meares, Top Gun builder of some note. This year, in team scale, he received a 99.417 score for his F-16C. He was kind enough to invite me to his shop and I was very much surprised. I had expected, based on the quality of his work, an expensive and elaborate set up. What I discovered was a typical, well appointed workshop in his basement. He had all the tools and he had plenty of room to work. But it looked very much like the typical workshop you might see, occupied by a lifelong modeler.

Graeme revealed some of his techniques and tricks for getting near perfect, static scores. And they were not secret, nor special nor was there any black magic involved. Just about anyone could do what he does, IF they work hard at getting it perfect. Natural born skill is also required, of course, and Mr. Meares has that in spades.

It was an amazing experience, and it inspired me to vow that I'd get back to finishing that Mick Reeves, Spitfire that I started some 10 years ago. It'll never see competition but to own a truly good, scale model, you have no choice but to build it and finish it.

I will admit though, that the more work that I put into a project, the less I want to commit it to the skies. Probably why I'm so slow in finishing this kit but now that I'll be enjoying more free time, it may just happen sooner than later. Them dang ARFs have spoiled me though. [:@]

I don't know. I've had a few ARF's, RTC, RTF planes, and every one I had I'd have built it better, finished it out better, probably flown better. The way I see it anyway. Buy kits guys, God bless scratch builders..Walt
I just can't help myself

i was just talking to an old friend, he taught me to fly 30 plus years ago, anyways he was talking about how easy it was to get an ARF and be done with it. BUT we both agreed that you lose the pride and joy of building a plane from a box of wood, that flys when your done. these days not alot of people know what thats about, they think putting their ARF together WAS building a plane. hey if your flying your good in my book

I saw Graeme's latest work at Toledo this past April. I can sum it up in one word - Spectactular! The F-16 that he and David Schulman entered in Top Gun is amazing. Work like this can inspire those who otherwise would consider building a kit to give it a shot. I've seen very few ARF's that are as impressive as a kit or scratch built plane. With that said, A fellow club member put together a KMP B-25 that is pretty impressive for an ARF.

DavidGeorge...
I too love building and sometimes build on perfectly calm sunny Saturdays ..... in fact sometimes I find that once I maiden something and fly it several times, I'm ready for the next project.

24-7... I dont build for the ego...I do it b/c it's relaxing, and I have a passion for making things with my hands - Planes, especially after working in the virtual world everyday where at the end you say.. what did i create today...hmmmm. I have two younger kids..dog, cats.. wife, etc etc... and I don't care is something takes me several months to build as long as I have something flight worthy available.

and your right..... thanks for opening my eyes a bit... who cares who calls what...what. Deep down I know what I'm in it for. Reminds me of quotes from the movie City Slickers....

You know what the meaning of life is...
Just one thing...
What's that...
That's for your to find out.

Do i place my hobby over my wife or kids.. or course not... but .....

Currenlty building an out of production Firebird by no longer CraftAir (think boxy-ish ultrasport)... no laser cut parts, shaped leading edges or ,plastic cowels in this baby. Yes it's taking me about 9 mos. working a few hours a week so far to turn out a low wing pattern plane of the 80's... so be it.. out int garage with a couple hours to myself.. I'm in my zone!

Hmmm... maybe there is a little ego involved.... here's a pic!! Yes that's a honda minivan used to cart my kids all over god's creation!

I try to buy my planes already assembled - i.e., used from someone thinning out their collection.  I work long weeks and many ARF planes still require many hours of "assembly" which is time I would rather spend flying on the weekend.  I certainly don't have the time to "build" a kit.   Does it take anything away from the hobby?  Not for me.  I would rather be in the air than a workshop.  But, to each their own.

BINGO!

I suppose in a competition setting, naming these things dogmatically would make more sense to me. (plans building vs scratch building- although, I think they call it designer's class. So even in a competition context there is room for disagreement.)

I have to admit though... I am biased against the arf, even though I've owned a few of them. I guess that makes me a hypocrite.

I just had a CRAZY idea!!!

In this hobby, there are fences put up that divide opinions. This is true in other things as well, and may even be a good thing. But I like to think of it this way-

I have erected my fence, but I want to keep it low enough to still shake hands with someone that has another opinion.

Brian

It's a credit to you guys that you have the patience for a several month, or in some cases, a several year project. I think part of the hesitation for me is that I'll need the confidence to fly something that I've spent months or years working on. I'd have too much emotionally invested and would fear the dirt nap.

WOW..... Some of the posts spark a very deep subject that goes a lot farther than just the aero-modeling community. The arf revolution is all part of societys need for instant gratification. Take a look around, it is everywhere, in every hobby, and almost everything we do!! Very few of the younger generation (under 30) have the patients to build anything from a kit or just a set of plans. Try to get a teen or younger child to build a kit, after about 2 minutes of looking at the box they just want to turn on the tv or ps3...Why? Because it is the faster way to achieve the pleasure that they desire. I call this intellectual laziness. Read some studies sometime. Building anything stimulates intelligence, and can increase IQ points.

I do not disagree with arf's. I have many, and also have many kit built planes and helis. I think they are a great way to keep the hobby going. Think about the people who may just rent a room, or have an apartment and do not have the time, or place in their current stage of life to build a kit but still want to get out there with us kit builders and enjoy flying. There is nothing wrong with that. There are some really nice looking arf's on the market now, just take Top Flite's b-25 for example. But I do believe that everyone should try to build at least one kit.

I do agree that is is a bit annoying to see the boastful arf assembler spinning tales of the laborous act of "building" the arf. However, I also believe that the term "build" is used loosley. I agree that there is a much greater sense of pride in being able to say "I built it from some sticks, and sheets of balsa". Is this really a person wanting their ego stroked?? I don't think so, it is just the typical male ( no offense to any female modelers) being competetive and proud of their accomplishments just like most of our Dads have taught us. The real question is whether the builder is trying to have their ego ( a word which usually is used in a manner to imply that someone thinks they are better than others) stroked, or their pride stroked????? Just a thought to consider before labeling the proud builder. I would be much more tollerable of the proud kit builder than an arf assembler who is boasting about the amount of money he/she has in a project, and describes each step or part with a dollar amount.

All in all I agree that what is important is to just relax and have fun!!!!!

count me as one who loves building either from plans or in some cases a kit.yeah once in a while you can find them.my gripe is that when you find a kit thats out of production the prices skyrocket.and I am not anti arf either as I have several my favorite being a ultrastick 60.no I didnt build it rather I assembled it.I too have no issue using that wording.I didnt construct it nor did I cover it.I simply put to wings together installed the motor and radio and flew it.you cant argue with simplicity .and if your a flyer not a builder thats fine too.I have a workshop time and tools and a passion to build.the planes I do construct are scale.I fly electrics too and have an absolute ball but building gives me therapy time alone in the shop .I can go in it with fresh coffee and enjoy cutting shaping sanding and just having a creative moment.sometimes ok a lot of times I get stuck but the challenge of solving that problem and finishing the bird gives me a real sense of accomplishment. many arf's are really good thesedays .I would rather have a bunch of guys flying at the field with whatever they built or assembled and have fellowship and just enjoy the hobby.

That is a tough fear to overcome!!

DITTO!!! (except in my case replace the fresh coffee with a fresh homebrew )

I have both ARFs and kit built aircraft in my fleet. When flying an ARF and asked if I built it, I always reply " it's an ARF, but yes I but it together". I will then go on to point out any up grades or modifications from stock that have been done to the airplane. When flying a kit built aircraft and asked I refer to it as being "stick built" and as a matter accuracy state if I or someone else built it. The insult comes when flying a stick built kit that I built and I am asked "is that an ARF ?". Actually for me it's a compliment that my building and covering is good enough to look like today's ARFs. Both have thier place in the hobby today. My current project is a top flight Elder 40, almost done as I am covering it now. Guess that makes my Elder an "almost ARF"!