RE: .60 size Pattern Tiporare Build
 

You guys are driving me absolutely MAD with this build. Thx for your efforts.

RE: .60 size Pattern Tiporare Build
 

Why's that Seamus?

It will be worth it - the Tipo is a nice bird!

David.

RE: .60 size Pattern Tiporare Build
 

David,
That original left wing discentegrated when I tried to use polyester resin installing the spars. The resin absolutely melted the foam and I could find no recovery for that. I plan on getting near the final shape on the fuselage from the canopy back today and installing the motor mount if all goes well.
I will aply some model magic on the areas where the surfaces are low on the stab panels and final sand in the anhedral angle. If all goes well I might even get the back up material in the engine housing so it can be rough shaped .
I do not plan to go to the flying field today so I will have some time to work on the Tipo.
Do you monokote the entire airplane. It looks like you have set up for it on the 120 Tipo? I had though about painting mine but am not decided yet.
Jim

RE: .60 size Pattern Tiporare Build
 

SeamusG,
I hope that this build is not driving your too crazy.
It is a good project when that white stuff is on the ground around your area.
Is that a four star 60 in your avitar? looks like one to me? Are you into pattern or sport? I am 71 years old and still enjoy building and pattern flying but feel like I am too old to compete any more. The hands and brain have too large of a reaction gap by now but still enjoy the challange and can remember when.
Jim

RE: .60 size Pattern Tiporare Build
 

Jim,

sounds like a good days work ahead of you.

I am not working on a 120 size Tipo. The large 2m version was built by someone else at around the time when turnaround kicked in but he subsequently decided not to finish it. That was a few years ago - he might have finished it by now. At the moment I am working on two 60 size glass/foam Tipo's. One will be finished entirely in paint in the same scheme as the Pico while the other will have a requested trim scheme by a fellow modeler. The glass fuses obviously are painted but I will cover the stab and wing with MK on that one.

I would recommend you glass and paint the fuse and fin and cover the rudder and flying surfaces. The finish will be faster, lighter and the fuse will be more durable. Covering a fuse like the Tipo is a bit of a challenge to get smooth and wrinkle free. I covered the Pico but the canopy and nose area required a lot of heat/stretch cycles to get smooth. The seam lines on a large 60 size model are not worth it in my opinion.

Keep up the good work Jim!

David.

RE: .60 size Pattern Tiporare Build
 

David,
Where did you find a glass fuselage for a .60 Tipo? I searched all over for one.
I have finally mounted the motor mount and as you said it will take some more internal balsa backing to shape it to its final form.
At the moment the fuse weigh 1 # 4 7/8 ounces with motor mount. Lots more to be removed from the fuselage yet.
I have created the horizontal stab tips but have not attached them. Still fighting that fuselage shape. Just a lot of stock to come off yet. Does the tuck line create the lower contour for the upper fuselage blending into the canopy? I cannot get a clear understanding of that line. Maybe a head on photo might clear my head. Us engineers (mechanical) can read drawings but there is nothing there to read. I hate assuming.
Which Mac's header are you running on that OS? It looks like a long header for an OS 61 and runs under the fuselage. I think that that is where I am going.
What does your .60 weigh all up?
Jim
Jim

RE: .60 size Pattern Tiporare Build
 

RE: .60 size Pattern Tiporare Build
 

Seamus,

interesting post! :)

Please do tell us what's on your mind.

David.

RE: .60 size Pattern Tiporare Build
 

Easy - Tower Hobbies, Great Planes kit... 1982. About $170. :D

Actually they may become available in the near future once again. Not from the original source of course. We'll see.

Your finished airframe weight should be in the 4 lb ballpark. AUW should be no more than 8.5 lbs. If you can build it to 8 lbs, you're golden.

The following pics might help. In short, yes, the tuck line delineates the separation of the upper "canopy" portion of the fuse from the bottom section. The tuck line wraps around the front of the canopy and extends rearward to about 8-10" forward of the stab LE where it fairs back into the fuse. So basically the tuck line is most accentuated at the front and above the wing and then gradually tapers off rearward. It's an aesthetic thing, it doesn't have to be identical to the original so long as it is crafted and most importantly symmetric - that could affect knife edge flight and trim if you end up with an asymmetric fuse evidently.

The engine mounted in this Tipo is actually a Rossi. Headers to run a pipe under the wing from a side mounted engine need to be of the extra long Macs kind. The second Tipo will actually fly with an OS 61 SF - same pipe arrangment.

My model is not finished but as mentioned above - you're aiming for 8.5 lbs max dry. If you can keep it to 8 lbs dry it will take off at 9 lbs wet. I think a wood fuse and contest balsa flying surface foam cores could easily be built to 7.5 - 8 lbs dry. Retracts also make a big difference.

David.

RE: .60 size Pattern Tiporare Build
 

Easter Sundays accomplishments in between honey do's.
I managed to get the engine mounted and determine where the center was for the nose rings. I planed carved, and sanded more on the fuselage, still more to go. The horizontal stabs now have tips and are rough flushed out to the horizontal stab. Still need shaping and final sanding. The elevators are cut out but require shaping. It seems like this shaping work will go on for a while. I have removed so much balsa that I had to replace the bag in my mini vacuum.
So far it has been all rough sanding but hope to get closer to final shape by end of this week.
Will post some pictures tomorrow.
Jim

RE: .60 size Pattern Tiporare Build
 

Well, its now tomorrow and as promised pictures are attached.
The fuselage is now starting to resemble a Tiporare as I remember them. But at my age recall is just a wee bit short. I have the tuck lines in and have blended them into the upper fuselage and canopy area. I have rough shaped the front end and still need to define the opening for the engine. At this time I have not weighed the fuselage but will later on and post that weight.
The elevators still need shaping and very thin ply added to the area where they interface with the stab tips. I will also add the thin ply in that area also.
Jim

RE: .60 size Pattern Tiporare Build
 

Well, more sanding and shaping on the fuselage. I added the hardwood dowels to the rudder and elevetors and flushed them out. Drilled and tapped for 4-40 thread. One side is rough shaped to the elevator (matching tapers toward the back). The otherelevator took a dive into the sander while I was roughing some material out. Another one has been started started. The elevator tips have been resanded flush to the elevator but the final coutour is still needed. For all of the time I put in today there results just are not there. After lawn work tomorrow I might get back to the tipo providing that there is some energy left.
Have a great eveining,
Jim

RE: .60 size Pattern Tiporare Build
 

Jim,

one thing I like to do to help guide me when shaping the elevators or any control surface is to use hardwood trailing edges on the surfaces. In the picture below you see that I used 3/32" square mahogany bonded to the back of the elevators. Not only does this provide a datum line to taper the elevators to uniform contour but it also provides a hard edge to resist hangar rash as well as prevent warping over time due to environmental changes. I tend to do this on all my surface TE's but on the wing and ailerons I used spruce rather than mahogany since I had ran out of the heavier but stronger wood. It is also tricky to find 3/32" square mahogany in 30"+ lengths and the spruce is strong enough and a tad lighter.

If you use softer balsa you might find that a belt sander is not needed and you can do it by hand. I tend to do most of my shaping work with a little planer to remove the bulk and then a lot of elbow grease. I do have a belt sander which I got a year ago but I have yet to fire it up! Hopefully, it will come in handy in some scratch building I have planned.

Another handy trick is to inlay 1/32" ply into the center of the wing/stab tips providing a surface to fair the tip into and also provide dent resistance from hangar bumps.

Keep up the good work!

David.

RE: .60 size Pattern Tiporare Build
 

Is it the same airframe as Prettner's Curare ?

RE: .60 size Pattern Tiporare Build
 

Similar but not the same.

The Tiporare was designed by Dick Hanson and first flown successfully in competition by Dave Brown. The Tiporare was published in an article in 1980 in Model Builder while Hanno's Curare won the F3A world's in 1977. Hanno didn't win the following world's in '79 due to absence but returned in '81 to win the world's in Acapulco with his Magic and pretty much continued from there for the remainder of the 80's. Dave Brown was on his heels often placing 2nd or 3rd first with the Tipo and then with the Illusion which was a variation on the Tipo design. The third photo is of Dave Brown placing second in '79 with the Tipo while the wing tip we see is of Wolfgang Matt's Arrow with which he won that year. Matt often placed second while Hanno took top honours no matter what he was flying. He won again in '83 with a model called the Calypso which many believed to be a low wing trainer... (last photo)

BTW, Prettner has recently been involved in the development of an ARF of this Curare design which was developed by an Austrian company. The model will be available late summer but we can expect to see pictures of Hanno himself flying his quintessential design some time next month! Priceless photos no doubt.

David.

RE: .60 size Pattern Tiporare Build
 

Please drop me a message when this haapens, whenever I miss this event !

RE: .60 size Pattern Tiporare Build
 

I managed to get some shaping and sanding done this morning before mowing the lawn.
The horizontal tips are rough shaped and need some fine sanding. The elevators are close to being finished. Maybe I can get this task done tomorrow along with some more sanding.
The replacement wing is still in Arkansas because of the terrible rain storms going on there.
I might set up the main landing gears tomorrow and set them aside for later. Still in a quandry about the nose gear since it is a rail mount, I will just have to think on it some more.
This build has been a challange but with help of folks like David (Doxilla) it has not been as difficult as it could have been.
As soon as I have some visible progress I will take some pictures and post them.
Jim

RE: .60 size Pattern Tiporare Build
 

Jim,

good to hear the progress and glad that I could be of help. I am a Tipo nut as it were...:D

Scratching models like this one (even with Don's short kit) is a good workout - they are full of compound curves everywhere. The nose is a particularly tricky area except that now that you've built your second (at least), the others will come easier. I'd just like to have 2 or 3 sets of flying surfaces ready to go for when I'm inspired to put together a fuse. Actually I do have a set of wings/stabs basically ready for a 25 size Tipo (Nanorare [8D]).

If you can finish your fuse before that wing panel arrives you will be well on your way when it does. For the nose gear it shouldn't be too bad a setup. I think I mentioned my approach in a few posts above - can't recall. Build a tank/gear separation plate from 1/16" ply. You are going to want one to hold that tank in place unless you made plans to use a round tank held at the neck by the FW. I like the Hayes slim tanks for classics with nose gears as they are shallow and provide you with more working room. They are also good tanks. You then make a 1/4" ply plate that is long enough to support the nose gear flange. This will probably have to mount atop the tank plate since you will want the tank as low as possible to align the centerline with the engine carb. The 1/4" ply plate is bonded to the back of the FW with epoxy and also to the sides of the fuse with additional support from 3/8" tristock. If you can build a couple of "ears" in to the plate that insert into the FW that will make it really solid but it might be difficult with the fuse built and FW in place. Still, it might be possible. The tank plate actually can be held in place by inserting it between the 1/4" plate and the nose gear by drilling and mounting the gear through it. The rear portion can be held down with a cross brace on the F2 former and/or with tristock running along the bottom side corners of F2. I like the idea of a removable tank plate as it makes maintenance much easier by removing the nose gear without having to pull the tank from the hole in F2. However, if you do put the tank plate in permanently, make sure you put a masking tape pull tab on the tank so you can remove it later through F2 if/when needed.

Use the nose gear to set the draft of the model. Make it so the strut is as long as possible without having the wheel interefere with the F2 former when retracting. You basically want the 2" wheel (2" is better than 2.25" on hard surface) to be grazing the F2 former - this will allow you to spin a 12" prop if you are using a long stroke engine. I usually figure out the location of my wing wells based on this height. According to Dick Hanson (the designer), the model should have a slight negative draft when resting on all three (if I recall correctly) - this will cause it to stick to the ground on landings.

One technique I like that works very well on those tear drop wing/stab tips is the "shoe shine" technique. I sand the tips to airfoil to end up with two "fish" - one on each side. I actually sand them to at least 320 grit so that my tip/wing junction is smooth. I then sand in a flat at 45 degrees on the edges of the fish being careful to transition toward the TE. I pretty much always use a 1/32" ply keel dividing the top and bottom tip blocks. Not only does this provide a hard point to prevent hangar rash but it also provides a centerline datum for shaping reference. Once the 45 degree flat is deep enough (not much actually) I then begin to transition the flat spot to the surface and to the keel in turn to yield a nice circular profile. With 300 grit or lower I find you can never get the flat spots off everywhere and the tips remain faceted to some degree. This is where the shoe shine technique comes in. You take your wing and rest the root on a soft surface (a towel) on the ground. You cradle the outer portion of the wing between your legs holding it firm. With a rectangular length of 400 grit wet or dry paper (the flexible kind) you then polish the tip by running the paper over the tip keel back and forth as if polishing the heel part of a dress show. Works like a charm every time and leaves you with that smooth tip. Tips have got to be my favorite part of a model... :)

For polishing inspiration, some pics of yesterday evening's work on tips. This is a Prettner Mystic wing and its almost done! Working on servo pockets at the moment.

David.

RE: .60 size Pattern Tiporare Build
 

Jim,

don't know if this helps but here's a drawing of the nose gear installation concept. This is on a 25 sized classic that I re-designed (a Joe Bridi UFO) so it uses a 1/32" ply tank plate and a 1/8" ply nose gear plate. Double those ply thicknesses and you are fine on a 60 size model. Note the 1/8" plate on top of the tank plate is braced with 3/8" tristock on the sides. I used 1/4" along the firewall for other reasons. You can also see that the rear of the tank plate is supported by the F2 former slot with an added piece of transverse 3/8" tristock on the front of the former beneath the plate. I don't intend to glue the tank plate in when building the model as the tank and foam in the tank bay prevents the tank plate from lifting off the former in the rear. In the front it is held in place by the nose gear that is screwed into the tank plate & the 1/8" ply nose gear plate.

David.

RE: .60 size Pattern Tiporare Build
 

David,
That layout helped quite a bit. Thanks.
No activity yesterday and today. The gout is back in my left anikle/foot. It is painful and it is difficult to walk. As soon as the medication takes effect I will be able to continue.
Jim

RE: .60 size Pattern Tiporare Build
 

Well, here it is Wednsday and my how time passes by. I have done some sanding on the fuselage with finer grits. Still waiting on wing replacement and a long header from Macs. Once I get those items I might be able to make sure that the header clears the fuselage and finish shaping in that area. I am reluctant to put the vertical fin in place without having the wings joined and in place for relativity. Once that is done I might start glassing the fuselage. I am in a slow progress state at this time. I did manage to remove the excess wood in the engine compartment. It aint smooth and pretty but the weight has been cleared out and I can get the OS .61 SF in with the carburator in place.
I need to get the throttle and fuel holes in the firewall yet.
Thats about all for now.
Jim

RE: .60 size Pattern Tiporare Build
 

Managed to get the vertical fin in place and the leading edge rough shaped. Also got the tail skag in place and will shape it tomorrow, this will take a little filling to meet the contour lines of the fuselage. Picture attached. The shaping of the leading edge and the blend into the fuselage has been some difficult task. It would not be so bad if I were not trying to get the blending of the radii looking smooth. Its going to take some effort but that is why we call it modeling.
Have a great day,
Jim

RE: .60 size Pattern Tiporare Build
 

Well, here it is Saturday and I thought I would post yesterdays events.
I have mounted the nose gear on rails, managed to get the landing gear figured out with axles. It has enough room that I can change to a 2 inch wheel if I choose to do so. The back of the rails are backed up with triangle stock for strength. As one can see by the pictures the horizontal stabilizer is now joined with epoxy with a 4.25 inch anhedral (cathedral) according to Dick Hanson. The elevators still need final shaping to match the horizontal stab and 1/64 ply added at the ends and sanded flush. The tank platform might be next and once that is in I can then drill a fuel line hole in the firewall.
My long macs header stilll has not arrived nor has my replacement wing.
I got a shock yesterday when I priced silkspan. I remember as a teenager it was not that expensive.
The fuselage shaping is close but I am having some difficulty blending or faring all of the radii into each other trying to make it look as I think it should.
Thats it for now,
Jim

RE: .60 size Pattern Tiporare Build
 

Jim,

Just ran across this build thread and will follow with enthusiasm! I've always liked the Tipo vs the Curare, some how it looked just a little bit more 'about right'!

Always was fond of that white and gold Dave Brown scheme.

Closest I've ever come to building a pattern ship was back in the mid 80's when I completed a KAOS with retracts and on OS61. Flew great and I wish I still had it. Maybe I'll find some pix and post. In the meantime... will be watching and cheering for ya!

Regards
Paul

RE: .60 size Pattern Tiporare Build
 

Nice work Jim.

Your fuse is starting to really take shape now. In the process of building the little Pico (where not much material is available to work with given the size) I learned that the production of those smooth transitions in the tuck lines can be more easily created with the aid of a flat "S" shaped sanding tool. For the tuck line the convex part of the S is used while for the edges of the tuck line where the tuck transitions back to the fuse side, the concave part of the S is used. A 6" length tool strikes me as being long enough provided you use reference lines drawn on to the fuse. I have considered building a large 120 size 6' span Tipo (for which I have cut cores) and would build such a tool for that purpose. At the moment though that model might be 2 or 3 years away.

You have an unusual and interesting building style as you work in reverse order to the way I would go about things. I always learn things by thinking outside my "box" and your thread is providing such a perspective.

Keep up the good work!

David.