12' Telemaster- gonna need help
 

In a moment of bravery (or stupidity) I clicked the button and now the nice folks at Aeroworks are cutting me a kit. I built kits and a couple scratch builts, but that was a long time ago, and nothing close to this scale. Hopefullly I didn't bite off more than I can chew, but from looking at other threads and the directions it looks like a pretty straight forward and fun build.

Anyway, this will be gas powered (my first). I was kicking around a G-38, but Hobby King's 53cc twin is really tempting. I don't want to overpower what is intended to be a slow flying plane, but would like enough power if I decide to try towing or whatever. Smoothness of a twin would also be a big plus. Thoughts or suggestions?

Servo wise, I was slooking at Hobbico's HCAM0165- a standard size non-metal gear high torque double ball bearing with 83 in/oz tq for each half of the elevator, and the rudder. Sufficient?

For the big ailerons, I was looking at HCAM0205 1/4 size non-metal gear with 181 in/oz tq. Would that work? I was also eyeballing Hitec HS755MG with 200 in/oz tq...

Control hardware wise I could also use some input:

I was looking at 4-40 rods threaded on one end with Great Planes soldered clevis on one end, and Dubro Safety Lock quick links on the other. I would guess those would be strong and reliable?

Hinges: I want removeable cotter pin type, and was looking at Durbo #257, but was wondering if I should use (or if there is) something larger?

Control horns: I prefer T type, and may inlay the back plate or blind nuts prior to covering. Is the Great Planes Large Horn GPMQ3902 appropriate?

Lastly wheels. I was looking at 7" Sullivan Skylites for mains. Landing area locally is more weeds mowed short than grass. Plane will weigh somewhere around 23 lbs. These work? And, what size tail wheel should I be looking at.


Thanks in advance for any help, and sorry about the long post. There's no LHS that would have most of this kind of stuff, so I want to get most of the components ordered soon (nice to have servos and stuff in hand while building).
<br type="_moz" />

RE: 12' Telemaster- gonna need help
 

Great, another Tele and a 12' too:).
Will most certainly watch this one. Look forward to your work.

RE: 12' Telemaster- gonna need help
 

May I please suggest sticking with the Zenoah over the Hong Kong engine. You wont to sorry. Zenoah's are about the most reliable, best best built gas engines out there. I will outlast you. No joke.

I too will be watching this thread. Im thinking a 12' Telemaster would be a great plane.

RE: 12' Telemaster- gonna need help
 

I am totally looking for suggestions, and I'll keep that in mind. The reason the HK twin caught my attention was it was affordable, and someone at the field showed up at with one of their gas singles that ran absolutely amazingly well. Runs better than engines at twice the price. Don't know what longevity will be, and the G-38 is proven durable. If I had to pick one today I'd probably stick with the G.


I'm really hoping to get some opinions on the control horns I was looking at. I suspect they aren't enough...

I'd also really appreciate input on the hinges.

Hope to get stuff ordered soon...<br type="_moz" />

RE: 12' Telemaster- gonna need help
 

FWIW:
I've been flying the SV50 for a couple of years, very smooth, nice engine. But I've seen two with twisted cranks, these Chinese twins, (100cc included), have weak cranks, they don't take propstrikes well. If longevety is paramount go with a single, if smoothness and cool matter go with the twin.

The cheap Chinese engines can be a bargain, if you know engines and can work on them some. Engine guys will tell they won't last, no they won't last like a 3W or DA, but they will serve the average Joe fine. Most engines die from being stufted into the ground. Cheap Chinese engines will last easily 200 hours, that's 800 flights, how many years flying is that for you?

Go over-kill on control horns and linkages, they're cheap insurance. I like hinge points for hinges. If you get good HiTec servos, the arms that come with them are fine, you don't need $10 aluminum arms.

RE: 12' Telemaster- gonna need help
 

<p style="margin-bottom: 0in">Thanks, all of you, for taking the time to reply.</p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in"></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in">The last couple days have been too windy to fly, so I got some of the prep done. A trip to habitat for humanity and to home depot snagged me an 8'x4' flat door and a sheet of thin firm foam for pinning.</p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in"></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in">Today I took the 80 mile drive to Harbor Freight and I got some nice folding adjustable folding saw horses, a scroll saw, and all sorts of clamps.</p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in"></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in">It was only another 12 miles to Coyote Hobby, the nearest large RC shop, and I needed some small hardware for a senior cadet franken-plane I've been messing with.</p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in"></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in">Anyway, the guys there are super-friendly and the quick trip turned into a long discussion where he gave me lots of info. I got to looking at what they had that I needed for this project. What they didn't have they could ship to my door by next week- free shipping, and good prices. It was nice to be able to lay eyes on hardware I was considering.</p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in"></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in">I snagged heavy duty cotter pin type hinges, control horns, 4-40 rods, metal solder on clevises for one end and normal threaded ones for the other end, sullivan skylite 7&rdquo; mains and 1 &frac34; tail wheels, 40 oz fuel tank, spectrum 9110 powersafe receiver with a telemetry module, servos, a ton of covering, assorted hardware, and tools.</p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in"></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in">One particularly cool thing he has are custom aluminum anodized gas jug fitting caps that fit standard Blitz fuel cans. Also, rather than do the typical purchase servo extensions that are always a bit too long, I bought 50' of 20 ga servo wire, male and female ends, and a crimper tool.</p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in">I went with the cotter pin type hinges over hinge points mainly so it would be handy to remove control surfaces for painting or recovering, and I like the security of having them glued and pinned in. I also snagged one of those slot cutter machines.</p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in"></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in">Basically I got everything I need except: Engine, prop, spinner, and tow release.</p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in"></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in">I think I'll get this tow release (not cheap, but nice looking billet)

http://mysite.verizon.net/vze2qbfc/s...towinghook.JPG</p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in"></p><p style="margin-bottom: 0in">I'm also thinking I'll ask him what super-duper low price he would charge me for a G-38 with some props and a spinner... By the time the big box of balsa arrives I could have the engine broken in and tested... though I wonder if I should consider going bigger (if I do someday tow something large, or put floats on the beast). Also I'd prefer electronic ignition over magnito.</p>

RE: 12' Telemaster- gonna need help
 

If anyone has any suggestions in a quality brand single gas 2 stroke in around the 38-45cc range with electronic ignition...

RE: 12' Telemaster- gonna need help
 

I have this for sell which I think would work better for this size plane:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/market/item.cfm?itemid=754802

If you want to stay around 40cc this guy has two ZDZ40s:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/market/item.cfm?itemId=753045
My friend used to run ZDZs and they are nice motors.

Brillelli made a good 45cc, but I don't see any for sell right now.

Fuji makes a 50cc, but they are expensive to repair, heavy and not supper powerful for they're size, but the weight and power shouldn't be a problem in your plane:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/market/item.cfm?itemId=753395

I would lean toward too big of a motor, that's what throttles are for, if you have too small a motor you have to buy a bigger one then put it in, never as neat as the original installation.

RE: 12' Telemaster- gonna need help
 

I've been thinking along the same lines. I'd hate to put a 38 on it and a couple years down the road, with floats or towing, find myself shopping for another engine.DLE55 has my attention. The hobby shop I was just at had one on hand, at a discounted price... Hmmm...

RE: 12' Telemaster- gonna need help
 

Any progress on this one yet?:D

RE: 12' Telemaster- gonna need help
 

Well, I picked up a DLE55, spinner, props, tank...<div>
</div><div>I think I have every tool and part I need, and a work space set up...  Now all I need is for the kit to show up.</div>

RE: 12' Telemaster- gonna need help
 

Just one thing, Jeff. IIRC, you listed wanting to use less than 100 inch/ounces of torque servos on each elevator half, yet you listed the ailerons as using nearly double the amount of torque per servo than the elevator halves. Frankly, this is just backwards, for normal flying models. The ailerons aren't that large on the 12' Telemaster, but powerful servos are okay. Better too powerful than not powerful enough. The elevator halves on this monster should be 130 ounce/inches or larger.

The DLE 55 is a good engine. I'm a former Zenoah flyer (still have a Cunningham 26cc Lite version), but have switched over to battery ignition Chinese el cheapo engines. I don't fly 3D, so absolute reliability down close to the ground is not a factor for me. If the DLE hits the ground too hard to repair, and it happens, as you probably know, I'm not out of a forture. I just buy another box-o-bullets and reload.

I love Dubro and Robart Hinges. Their largest work for me. If you want to keep your control surfaces on your model, mass balance each and every one. A friend of mine utilizes this philosophy and has not lost a control surface that I know of. You would not believe the incredible high speed maneuvers he puts his models through. If it will keep the little high speed models in one piece, it surely can't hurt on a 12' Telemaster. Please keep posting your progress.


Ed Cregger

RE: 12' Telemaster- gonna need help
 

Thanks. I kind of thought the same on the servos, but the company that makes the kit didn't offer any suggestions. I kind of copied the servo strength of another 12' tele build thread.

I've been rethinking flaps, so maybe I'll put the servos I inteneded for ele on there, and get something a bit stronger for the ele. The aile's seem to be pretty big on this plane, but with its high wing dihedral wing I suspect it will fly mostly on rudder.

Anyway, those big 1/4 servos in the 200 range are heavy, and I was also concerned about having that much weight in the tail- which lead me to think about high torque standard size. Those big buggers also pull lots of current, but I think I've got plenty of overkill for power- two LiFe 2100's and a Specktrum power-safe receiver.

The last thing I need to get is a kill switch. I'm thinking smartfly.<br type="_moz" />

RE: 12' Telemaster- gonna need help
 

Just another thing to go wrong. Set your engine up with the slow idle in the center of your trim, full down trim on the throttle to kill the engine. Then put your choke on a on/off switch, the carb is in the back of your DLE55 it as easy to put it on a servo as to hook up a manual on/off pullrod, so it's a win/win, not only do you get a choke on a switch, but you get a second way to kill the motor if your throttle servo dies.

This is the way I tune my motors and you want to do this mod to your carb:
1.Start the engine, set the throttle so the engine is going 3500 rpm.

2.With the engine running I turn the "L" needle in, it is always the needle that is closest to the engine, when the engine speeds up to 4000 rpm I adjust the throttle to bring it back to 3500 rpm. You keep repeating this step until your engine doesn't speed up anymore when you turn the "L" needle in.

3.Turn the "L" needle out 3/16th of a turn.

4.Open the "H" needle 2 turns out, open the throttle all the way open. Now slowly turn the "H" needle in the engine will increase in rpms. Turn the needle about 1/16 at a time, when you get no more increase in rpm the "H" is set properly.

5.Set you idle speed with your throttle trims, it's best to take the idle stop screw completely out, you should have it so the idle is correct with the trim in the middle, and the low trim kills the engine.

6.With the engine running at the idle speed that you fly at you should now be able to snap the throttle open and the engine quickly speed up. If it just dies, turn the "L" needle out 1/16th of a turn, repeat this step until is quickly speeds up. If when you snap the throttle open it stumbles then speeds up turn the "L" needle in 1/16th of a turn until it cleanly and quickly speeds up.

7.Close the hole or notch up in the choke plate, I'll post a picture of what I mean, I do it with soldiering the hole close, some use glue or a bolt.

After you modify the choke plate the way to start the engine is:
a. Close choke completely.
b. Open throttle half way.
c. Flip engine with ignition on until the engine coughs.
d. Take choke fully off.
e. Set throttle just above idle, flip until it starts, usually 3 to 5 flips.

RE: 12' Telemaster- gonna need help
 

I just saw this for sale. http://www.rcuniverse.com/market/item.cfm?itemid=760907
It looks like the DLE55 was a wise choice.

RE: 12' Telemaster- gonna need help
 

Anybody know what might be going on at Aerocraft RC?<div>
</div><div>When I ordered the kit I got a reply that it would take a few weeks.  It has been a month, and about a week ago I sent an e-mail to see how it was coming.  No reply.  I called and left a voice mail a day or two ago, and also no reply.</div><div>
</div><div>I see only the micro and mini telemaster are now on their page...</div><div>
</div><div>Has me kind of worried there has been an illness or some problem.</div>

RE: 12' Telemaster- gonna need help
 

Thanks for the engine tuning tips. I do think I will run the opto-kill, though. With the light wing loading and the wide open area I fly, I'm much less concerned about a dead stick than I would be about a run-away. Having a 2nd method to kill the engine in the event of throttle linkage or servo problem appeals to me, plus it would prevent a major problem if the receiver ever lost power (unlikely with redundant bats) or if someone did something stupid like start the engine with the receiver off...

Anyway, I rethought the servo thing, and will go 133 in/oz metal geared on all surfaces. More than it needs I'm sure, but I guess a bit of overkill is better than underkill.

The kit finally arrived earlier today. Apparently they were having problems getting in big blocks.

http://i1012.photobucket.com/albums/...D/1a9f1465.jpg

There is a LOT of wood in that box. The wood seems to be super-nice, uniform density. Also more than just the ribs appear to be pre-cut, which will be nice. Getting to glance at the plans, it seems pretty straight forward.

I'm wondering, though, if I could/should add a joiner tube?

Anyway, I've got another plane under construction, so this will wait for a little bit until I wrap that up.

RE: 12' Telemaster- gonna need help
 

Well I had a day off, and after flying and errands I got to spend about half the day on this. Mostly getting all the wood sorted out and figuring out how it is built and what goes where. Shaped and plywood parts come bagged in groups, and sticks and sheets come bundled in groups.

Looks like adding flaps won't be too tricky.

One bundle is (62) 36" 1/4x1/2 sticks...

http://i1012.photobucket.com/albums/.../Planes067.jpg.

In other kits I've gotten used to cutting smaller parts out of supplied wood stock. In this kit, you combine big sticks to make really big sticks. You cut diagonals on the ends of two sticks to splice them together, then laminate another set of sticks to it with two spices, so the splices don't line up in the finished laminate.

Using a miter razorback saw didn't give me the precision I wanted for a tight and strong splice (always a bit of saw wobble, magnified at that shallow of an angle). Clamping a fence on the disk sander worked much better...

http://i1012.photobucket.com/albums/.../Planes068.jpg

http://i1012.photobucket.com/albums/.../Planes069.jpg

Splice joints are drying now, and it is too late to run power tools in the neighborhood. Tomorrow I'll finish up building up the spars, and hopefully knock out the center section

One thing that has changed from what I've seen in previous build threads is the bolts that hold the center section to the fuse, and the bolts that hold the spar joiners to the center section are now steel. I think I will also use blind nuts in addition to threading the wood.

RE: 12' Telemaster- gonna need help
 

Jeff, I am eagerly following your built thread. I am new to building and can use all the help that is available.
I especially like those large, clear pics you have posted. Please continue with pics and building tips and I shall
be forever grateful. I am looking to built an AMR Big Stick 85 as I already have a 12' Telemaster. I would
think they are much alike. BTW, what material is the top of your table?

pete

RE: 12' Telemaster- gonna need help
 

Thanks for the positive feedback. I've been eyeballing AMR as a future project, too (the Monster Stick). It looks like their stuff is designed to interlock, where the Tele seems more traditional construction.

The build board is just a couple of doors joined below with extruded angle aluminum, and topped off with 1/2 inch foam insulation (Corning, I think). The foam comes with a layer of thin plastic film lightly bonded to one side. 3M spray glue will eat the foam, so just put the side with the plastic film down. It would be nice if it were a bit stiffer, but it is cheap and easy to change.

Anyway, I didn't get as far as I had hoped today. I got up at the crack of noon (I work swing shift, and the older I get the harder it is to flip my sleep schedule on days off), and also gluing up all those laminates took me longer than I thought. Since they are critical (spars) I really took my time and paid attention to make sure they were free of voids and straight. I also used a woodpecker to perforate the surfaces a bit. Personal preference, but I think it lets the glue soak in and grip more of the wood. Having seen things break where it looked like the glue held but it pulled a "skin" of balsa off, I thought it couldn't hurt.

http://i1012.photobucket.com/albums/...emaster001.jpg

It also dawned on me that I should take a break to let the glue set on some of those before doing the rest, as too many lead weights might buckle or break my table. Pizza and a beer, and glued up the rest.

http://i1012.photobucket.com/albums/...emaster002.jpg

Clamping a board on the disk sander made really accurate splice angles. Trying to use the miter that came with it didn't work well because it had some slop, and also is a fair bit away from the disk at that angle. If the stick has a bit of curve, it would mess up the angle that way.

The only down side to that method: Balsa Boogers.

One thing had me confused. The directions list 3 six foot sticks you need to build for each wing panel, including (2) 3/4x3/4 from 3/8x3/4 sticks, but there aren't 8 pieces of 36" 3/8x3/4... Then it dawned on me, these are for the leading edge (a piece of angle stock gets glued to the front during wing construction). I went to public school, but even I figured out there is only 1 leading edge on each wing panel.

Another thing I ran into- when I set the angle for the splices I made sure it would leave the finished sticks at least as long as shown in the plan, but I didn't take into account the other side of the laminate would have two splices. Derp, musta skipped the spar splicing class in public school.

I think they are still long enough, but if not I can always add a little make-up piece to that side of the laminate, on the wingtip end where stress is low. Actually, I may change the wingtip anyway. This kit makes adding custom touches easy.

I then built the forward and aft box beams that go in the center section.

http://i1012.photobucket.com/albums/...emaster003.jpg

They are plywood with hardwood square stock spacers, assembled with epoxy. Plywood joiners get epoxied to the forward and rear spars on the wing, the ends of which fit into these box beams. Another hardwood block will go on the front of the forward box beam and on the back of the aft box beam, to be threaded to accept 1/4x20 bolts. Another piece of hardwood goes on the rear of the front box beam and the front of the rear box beam, each anchored with 3 hardwood gussets, and those are drilled for the 1/4x20 bolts that hold the center section to the top of the fuse. The bottom center of the center section is not sheeted, and the top center of the center section gets a hatch secured by nylon screws into hardwood that gets glued on the box beams.

I can't go farther than building the box beams without rolling out the plans, and I want those laminates to cure fully before I take them off my board, so I'm done on the center section for the night.

The other thing I figured I'd may as well get done is getting the ribs out and organized. They are really well cut, and are marked. Most pretty much fell out, but on a hand full the laser looked to be about 1/32" short of full penetration, so a little cutting was required.

http://i1012.photobucket.com/albums/...telemaster.jpg.

I wonder when those computer guided laser cutters will get affordable. I'd like to have one in my garage, not so much for building models, but for the Zombie Apocalypse...

That wraps up day two. Need to order a slim pits style muffler for the DLE55, since the stock muffler will be too wide to fit between the cheeks. (No, not my cheeks, the plane's cheeks ahead of the firewall)

RE: 12' Telemaster- gonna need help
 

Jeff, as I look at your pics, it is obvious that there are a number of special tools required. Before I get
started on anything, would you be so kind and compose a general requirements list, like how many
clamps, weights or any other special tools are needed for a giant built? BTW, the Stick 85 is on my
mind as well. The problem is the engine size. DLE doesn't have an 85cc. You think it could handle
a DLE 111? The DLE 55cc for your Tele will be a perfect fit. I bought my Tele from a fellow up in West Virginia.
It has a Honda 4 cycle 50cc. He tells me it has great power and flies faster or slower with throttle control.
Haven't flown it as yet. Want more practice with smaller and cheaper planes, first. Continued success
with your current built.

pete

RE: 12' Telemaster- gonna need help
 

Answer's above in RED

RE: 12' Telemaster- gonna need help
 

Invertmast,

Thanks for the reply. I did end up getting the DLE55. With a slim muffler it should fit perfect, and I'd rather have a bit too much power than not enough. Hopefully that will be enough to pull the thing off water if I ever do floats, and maybe tow a reasonable size glider.

I also did upgrade to stronger servos, and ditched the 1/4 size idea. I did stick with Hobbico, though. I also did end up going with the Dubro control arms. I guess the point type hinges are a personal preference thing. Though they are easier to install, I like the idea of having the hinges glued and pinned in place, and being able to remove the control surfaces for repair or recovering.

Solder clevis wise, I've seen them done badly before, too, but I solder quite a few things and can install them properly.

Those wheels have a really nice, vintage look that would have been sharp on this plane, but I already have the Sullivans, so I guess I'll stick with them.

Malitape,

I'd be happy to post some photos of tools, and go into a lot of detail on this build, though realize I'm new to this too. I don't know what to tell you on an 85cc gas engine, as this will be my first, but I think ZDZ makes a 90 single. I've heard rumors that they are very high quality engines. DA also makes an 85.



Anyway, here are some tool shots.

http://i1012.photobucket.com/albums/...emaster004.jpg

I like this style for large clamps, as they will sit flat on the building board. A long straight edge is a must, and a piece of extruded aluminum angle makes a nice straight edge when you need something higher (like doing these laminate spars). Squares in several sizes are also a must-have.

The pump bottle is rubbing alcohol, which is super-handy for getting epoxy or wood glue off of things.

The sliding square is really handy to take a measurement off of a plan and transfer it to a part.

The bevel gauge is a common carpenter tool, and is handy to get an angle off of the plans and transfer a mark onto wood. I find it more accurate to take the angle off of what I'm trying to fit the part to, and use the tool to set my saw to that angle.

The razorback adjustable miter saw is super-handy.

The little pieces of aluminum are just 2" sections cut from extruded angle. They are handy for holding wing ribs and the like square (use a spring clamp) while gluing.

http://i1012.photobucket.com/albums/...emaster007.jpg

This is a strap clamp. I don't know if it will get used on this or not, but they are a handy thing to have around.

http://i1012.photobucket.com/albums/...emaster008.jpg

A butane pencil torch works well for soldering in the field. Large veterinary syringes are handy to get glue into tight spots.

http://i1012.photobucket.com/albums/...emaster009.jpg

A razor plane is really helpful in making leading edges, along with really big sanding blocks made from plywood and a handle on the back. The woodpecker will make perforations on shrink covering that you want to cover with more shrink covering, preventing bubbles. It can also be used to perforate wood for better glue bite. You may need a tap if you need to make threads in something. I have a set, but bought a separate one to keep in my plane building stuff. 1/4" requires #7 drill, and keeping it with the tap is handy. A tap handle of some type is also needed.

The other tool is a crimper for servo connectors, though I think I'll get one of the really nice ones.

http://i1012.photobucket.com/albums/...emaster010.jpg

Flex saw is handy for cutting something flush with a surface. I rarely use it for planes.

http://i1012.photobucket.com/albums/...emaster012.jpg

An awl is handy for making dents to make sure a drill starts where you intend. The other tool is a pen drill.

http://i1012.photobucket.com/albums/...emaster011.jpg

20 Ton hydraulic press. Haven't found a use for it with RC planes, other than being in the way of the drill press, which is a must for making accurate and square holes.

RE: 12' Telemaster- gonna need help
 

Today I did some other things, but I did get the laminates cleaned up with a block sander and inspected. Only two needed a bit of touch-up.

The box beams get a block of ply epoxied down, for the wing bolts to thread into. This shows how I was talking about using a sliding square to get the block located at the height shown on the plan.

http://i1012.photobucket.com/albums/...emaster005.jpg

Once those are dry, I used the same method to locate the center of the holes for the bolts. Ply is easy to splinter on drill exit, so I like to drill a small pilot hole and drill part way from each side. I bored it to #7, then opened up the other side to 1/4, and then drilled the thread block to 5/16 setting the drill depth to the depth of a blind nut.

IMHO threading into wood tends to strip at some point, and the backs of these blocks will be sheeted in, so I thought I'd use blind nuts now.

I stuck some 1/4 ply into the box beam so I wouldn't crush it, and used a bench vice (to get them totally straight) lined with a rag to press the blind nuts in part way. Then glue behind the blind nuts, and press them home.

Then I tapped the remaining wood thickness through the blind nut, to get the threads in phase.

http://i1012.photobucket.com/albums/...emaster014.jpg

The bottom screw plates got drilled to 1/4.

Front and rear box beams then get glued to the center rib part with epoxy, and double checked for square.

http://i1012.photobucket.com/albums/...emaster015.jpg

RE: 12' Telemaster- gonna need help
 

JeffinTD , Nice selection of tools . I noticed the press also . I have an older 20ton press that comes in handy for straightening crankshafts and pressing bearings in/out among a lot of other uses.
Keep up the great work...
BTW , I think you will be pleased with the DLE 55