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Fabric covering questions
I am newly getting back into the hobby and the realplanes I am mostinterested are covered in fabric, I really want to cover with either Stits or SigCoverall. What I am wondering is after the plane has flown and I develop the inevitable small holes and tears in the fabric, After so many patches what are the methods for removingold covering onthe airplane.
I've always thought the Stinson Reliant and the Piper J-15 and J-18 were some of the most interesting airplanes and really want to put my all into one of each, then maybe a Cessna 182 and like the rest of you the listgoes on and on LOL. Of course I know the Cessna 182isn't fabric covered. |
RE: Fabric covering questions
In answer to your question: if the "Stits" method is followed the fabric removal is simple. Just soak the area to be removed with MEK and it will literally just peel off. For complete instructions, go to http://stits.com/RC_Model_instructions.html .
And welcome back to the hobby. You will find that almost any kit you purchase is no longer "Die Crushed". The laser cut parts fall into your lap. The new batteries are fantastic. The new radios are like something from Buck Rogers. You're gonna have a great time re-learning the new stuff. |
RE: Fabric covering questions
Chip, Thank you
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RE: Fabric covering questions
Hi there, and welcome back to the addiction. I've used Koverall for the last half dozen or so planes that I've built. My experience has been that you'll really have to pile it in to mess up the covering where it'll rip or tear. Our field is sometimes surrounded by wheat or hay, and the stubble that is left will shred the iron on coverings. You might get a dent in the koverall, but then it's a simple matter to heat shrink it back to shape. I've not had anything poke a hole in it or tear it. It's really tough stuff. Best of luck.</p> Joel </p> |
RE: Fabric covering questions
ORIGINAL: Chip_Mull And welcome back to the hobby. You will find that almost any kit you purchase is no longer ''Die Crushed''. The laser cut parts fall into your lap. The new batteries are fantastic. The new radios are like something from Buck Rogers. You're gonna have a great time re-learning the new stuff. JJ[8D] |
RE: Fabric covering questions
If you use as fabric a 0.005" thick polyester (skirt lining) or a light Ceconite fabric you will not have punctures or tears unless your badluck is hiting a sharp object like the tip of an iron fence or the tip or a dried boken tree branch.
You have a 95% change of having no damage worth talking about particularly if your model is well glued with aliphatic glue and glue fillets have been applied and the finish is gluing every thead of the fabric to the structure. Zor |
RE: Fabric covering questions
I am having display problems and could not see the posting so I tried again and got a duplicate. This was the same as post #6.
Am trying to solve the display problem Sorry about this. Zor Editing I found the reason for my problem. I had installed a software called "safe monitor" and it prevented me from seeing any fedback input. I removed that program and all now appears normal. That software has a huge problem. End |
RE: Fabric covering questions
ORIGINAL: Chip_Mull In answer to your question: if the ''Stits'' method is followed the fabric removal is simple. Just soak the area to be removed with MEK and it will literally just peel off. For complete instructions, go to http://stits.com/RC_Model_instructions.html . And welcome back to the hobby. You will find that almost any kit you purchase is no longer ''Die Crushed''. The laser cut parts fall into your lap. The new batteries are fantastic. The new radios are like something from Buck Rogers. You're gonna have a great time re-learning the new stuff. Bob |
RE: Fabric covering questions
ORIGINAL: sensei ORIGINAL: Chip_Mull In answer to your question: if the ''Stits'' method is followed the fabric removal is simple. Just soak the area to be removed with MEK and it will literally just peel off. For complete instructions, go to http://stits.com/RC_Model_instructions.html . And welcome back to the hobby. You will find that almost any kit you purchase is no longer ''Die Crushed''. The laser cut parts fall into your lap. The new batteries are fantastic. The new radios are like something from Buck Rogers. You're gonna have a great time re-learning the new stuff. Bob OFTEN A COMPROMISE Most individual decision in the design and building of an airplane is a compromise. It is particularly true for the decision concerning the covering and finish of a model. The builder has to decide what is most important to him/her . . . ease of construction . . . time available for covering and finishing . . . how crash resistant the model will be . . . others . . . Eventually we all experience a less than ideal landing. If we wish a construction that is more resistant to damage we have to take the means to give the model that resistance. We cannot always rely on the design being aimed toward "crash damage resistance". Often building ease and/or building time takes over. A good reason why experienced builders often make changes. Also the choices left to the builder are the builder's own decisions. Some basic principles apply and one being discussed in this thread is the choice of covering and finishing. The builder has to decide what covering material he will use and what finish. Does the builder wish a covering easily removable? When does he anticipate having to remove the covering? When does he anticipate he may have a damaging landing? It is for him/her to take his/her decision. An easily removable covering is not as crash damage resistant as a fabric covering in which every single fabric thread is solidly glued to the structure. The size of the threads and material the fabric is made of has a lot to do in making a strong fabric. A strong fabric does not add much weight to a covering. Any slight increase in weight of the model can be a great advantage in its flying behavior in stronger winds and gusty air. Some of the considerations to evaluate to the best of the builder's ability are _ _ _ The supplied pieces in the kit, where they fit in the structure and the estimated strength they should have. In the case of scratch build the choice of the material selected. Example. wing spars should use hard balsa or bass or spruce (sitka preferred for grain). Plywood should be aircraft type to assure that the glue holding the layers together is good to avoid layer separation. I suggest to builders to compare Stits method to Randoph method and decide their choice. We should not take decison for the builder; that decison has to be his/her own. Zor Edited to correct "buider' to "builder". |
RE: Fabric covering questions
Zor,
Can you please show us just a few in process and completion pictures or videos of your own professional gluing, covering, and finishing results; I think we could all really benefit if we had the opportunity to learn more about your secrets in building to crash proof our airframes through the exclusive usage of excessive glue techniques from a real master craftsman and designer such as yourself? Many thanks in advance, Bob |
RE: Fabric covering questions
ORIGINAL: sensei Zor, Can you please show us just a few in process and completion pictures or videos of your own professional gluing, covering, and finishing results; I think we could all really benefit if we had the opportunity to learn more about your secrets in building to crash proof our airframes through the exclusive usage of excessive glue techniques from a real master craftsman and designer such as yourself? Many thanks in advance, Bob |
RE: Fabric covering questions
Bob,<div></div><div>As entertaining as that would be, it's NOT going to happen.</div><div></div><div>Since getting back into the hobby a few years ago, R/C Uni and R/C Groups have been a great source for getting up to speed on new materials and techniques. Many skilled modelers (yourself included) have shared their methods and techniques that are appreciated by those of us that simply want to build, fly, and enjoy this hobby. These forums have also been great in learning the "classic" way of covering. I for one have a few models that I intend to cover using dope and fabric, and there are more than a few modelers that have been gracious enough to share their knowledge and skill in this area.</div><div></div><div>Unfortunately, these forums have also been wrenched twisted by some (I ONLY say "some" as not to single any one person out to keep the baby-sitting mods happy - but, you know) into something that is less than enjoyable. They do not build. They do not fly. Their participation on these forums is purely for the reason of self-service. It is unfortunate that they chose our hobby to infest, as it could have been needlepoint, stamp collecting, or underwater buffalo jousting.</div><div></div><div>Several months ago, Chip Mull made a comment when a particular person (wink-wink) brought up the subject of using fabric store bought dress lining polyester. Chip explained that this fabric is not the best choice for covering models because it is pre-shrunk for retail presentation reasons. For me, I appreciated the information, tucked that bit of info in my mental toolbox, and moved-on having learned something. "Some" took Chip's info as an attack and responded in typical angry fashion. Good grief!</div><div></div><div>I have been a woodworker for more than forty years. I've built "kid tested" furniture that withstood much abuse. I did not invent my own techniques nor build my own tools (yeah, like I'm going to put my hands anywhere near a homemade table saw blade!). I learned from proven masters and bought craftsman-level tools. I attended classes and siminars on woodworking - a setting where it was time to shut-up and learn. Nobody paid their mnoney to listen to some hack spout about knowing more than the teacher. And guess what? We enjoyed ourselves - go figure. Not once did I see anyone attend a class in anger.
I've gone through gallons of aliphatic resin glue over the years. I know how to produce a snug joint and how to glue and clamp it. I have cleaned-up the dry squeezed-out glue from a joint and KNOW that the squeeze-out does NOT bind to the surrounding joint areas. I know that aliphatic resin glue remains somewhat pliable for weeks (pending humidity) before it becomes completely dry.</div><div></div><div>Before gaining the knowledge and skill in applying just the right amount aliphatic resin glue to joints, the excess glue would ooze out of the joint and form a fillet at the joint. I learned from a very accomplished woodworker to wait until the glue was completely dry before I cleaned it off. Guess what? The dry glue would literally chip and flake away from the wood. The real proof of how much (really how little) the glue penetrated the wood was during stain application. If the stained joint was uniform with the rest of the wood, that meant that the glue did not penetrate the wood - it's that simple. Although I can see where if you "visualized" the situation, and you have NO experience to the contrary, you could trick yourself into thinking that a glue-slurried joint is indeed a stronger joint. I don't see a problem with anyone thinking that. What I don't understand is the declaration of WWIII in the quest to always being right, and everyone else being absolutely, and ignorantly wrong.</div> |
RE: Fabric covering questions
Hello sensei and Mako17,
You request for proofs of my work might be that you are expecting what has been written in the beginning of the last post or a recent one if someone has posted in between. I regret to disappoint that person who specialize in personal attacks and derogatory writings. To start what I will assume is a genuine interest on your part and realizing that you guys have not browsed around much in this forum ( if you had you would already be aware of some of my activities in the hobby) I will first direct you to a couple of threads that you will need some of your valuable time to browse. If this does not satisfy your request then let me know and I will see how I can help your request further. Please browse the following threads. http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_60..._1/key_/tm.htm In the above thread my first post is #156. Some posts with pictures prior to that 156 post have been lost due to some RCU difficulties as you may read in one of the preceeding postings. http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1484799 I also have a thread dealing with the design of a PA30 Piper Twin Comanche. Thanks if your interest is genuine. Zor |
RE: Fabric covering questions
ORIGINAL: Zor You request for proofs of my work might be that you are expecting what has been written in the beginning of the last post or a recent one if someone has posted in between. I regret to disappoint that person who specialize in personal attacks and derogatory writings. You have NO posts or threads to show where I show that I "specialize in personal attacks and derogatory writings." So stop lying. If you're not LYING, post referrals to those threads. Oh, that's right - you're the ONLY member that I have EVER taken to task! Being that you're the only one, you'd think you'd feel special. Bob, aka "Sensei" has already posted pics of your handywork. Guess since you feel the spotlight on you, you've forgotten that. You really should get a hobby. And it flatters me that I am The One Who's Name Will Not Be Spoken. Shows that I intimidate you.http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/js/f...bout_smile.gif Once again, you're presented with an opportunity: show your work, or stop making claims. Cheers!<br type="_moz" /> |
RE: Fabric covering questions
ORIGINAL: EJWash1 Bob,<div> </div><div>As entertaining as that would be, it's NOT going to happen.</div><div> </div><div>Since getting back into the hobby a few years ago, R/C Uni and R/C Groups have been a great source for getting up to speed on new materials and techniques. Many skilled modelers (yourself included) have shared their methods and techniques that are appreciated by those of us that simply want to build, fly, and enjoy this hobby. These forums have also been great in learning the ''classic'' way of covering. I for one have a few models that I intend to cover using dope and fabric, and there are more than a few modelers that have been gracious enough to share their knowledge and skill in this area.</div><div> </div><div>Unfortunately, these forums have also been wrenched twisted by some (I ONLY say ''some'' as not to single any one person out to keep the baby-sitting mods happy - but, you know) into something that is less than enjoyable. They do not build. They do not fly. Their participation on these forums is purely for the reason of self-service. It is unfortunate that they chose our hobby to infest, as it could have been needlepoint, stamp collecting, or underwater buffalo jousting.</div><div> </div><div>Several months ago, Chip Mull made a comment when a particular person (wink-wink) brought up the subject of using fabric store bought dress lining polyester. Chip explained that this fabric is not the best choice for covering models because it is pre-shrunk for retail presentation reasons. For me, I appreciated the information, tucked that bit of info in my mental toolbox, and moved-on having learned something. ''Some'' took Chip's info as an attack and responded in typical angry fashion. Good grief!</div><div> </div><div>I have been a woodworker for more than forty years. I've built ''kid tested'' furniture that withstood much abuse. I did not invent my own techniques nor build my own tools (yeah, like I'm going to put my hands anywhere near a homemade table saw blade!). I learned from proven masters and bought craftsman-level tools. I attended classes and siminars on woodworking - a setting where it was time to shut-up and learn. Nobody paid their mnoney to listen to some hack spout about knowing more than the teacher. And guess what? We enjoyed ourselves - go figure. Not once did I see anyone attend a class in anger. I've gone through gallons of aliphatic resin glue over the years. I know how to produce a snug joint and how to glue and clamp it. I have cleaned-up the dry squeezed-out glue from a joint and KNOW that the squeeze-out does NOT bind to the surrounding joint areas. I know that aliphatic resin glue remains somewhat pliable for weeks (pending humidity) before it becomes completely dry.</div><div> </div><div>Before gaining the knowledge and skill in applying just the right amount aliphatic resin glue to joints, the excess glue would ooze out of the joint and form a fillet at the joint. I learned from a very accomplished woodworker to wait until the glue was completely dry before I cleaned it off. Guess what? The dry glue would literally chip and flake away from the wood. The real proof of how much (really how little) the glue penetrated the wood was during stain application. If the stained joint was uniform with the rest of the wood, that meant that the glue did not penetrate the wood - it's that simple. Although I can see where if you ''visualized'' the situation, and you have NO experience to the contrary, you could trick yourself into thinking that a glue-slurried joint is indeed a stronger joint. I don't see a problem with anyone thinking that. What I don't understand is the declaration of WWIII in the quest to always being right, and everyone else being absolutely, and ignorantly wrong.</div> |
RE: Fabric covering questions
Doing my first fabric job on a Chipmunk and I used store bought fabric, very light and sheer. Using Stix-it and Rustoleum, and it is starting to look very good. It takes longer but it look a lot better than iron on plastic.
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RE: Fabric covering questions
ORIGINAL: Zor Hello sensei and Mako17, You request for proofs of my work might be that you are expecting what has been written in the beginning of the last post or a recent one if someone has posted in between. I regret to disappoint that person who specialize in personal attacks and derogatory writings. To start what I will assume is a genuine interest on your part and realizing that you guys have not browsed around much in this forum ( if you had you would already be aware of some of my activities in the hobby) I will first direct you to a couple of threads that you will need some of your valuable time to browse. If this does not satisfy your request then let me know and I will see how I can help your request further. Please browse the following threads. http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_60..._1/key_/tm.htm In the above thread my first post is #156. Some posts with pictures prior to that 156 post have been lost due to some RCU difficulties as you may read in one of the preceeding postings. http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1484799 I also have a thread dealing with the design of a PA30 Piper Twin Comanche. Thanks if your interest is genuine. Zor Again, thanks in advance for your much needed impute on our building efforts. Bob |
RE: Fabric covering questions
ORIGINAL: Mako17 Would really like to see that myself!!!! It is nice to see you return to the forum. After your posting 65 times in 2010 and only once in 2012 and finally your first post in 2013 on 15 of June. I hope you find some time to browse the two links I posted and look at the many pictures as well as read the texts. If you have any questions, please post them in this thread to keep the conversation all in one place. Regards from Zor. |
RE: Fabric covering questions
WOW![X(]<div></div><div>Somehow how much you run your mouth equals how much you know??? YIKES!!!</div><div></div><div>Macko17, as the saying goes, "still waters run deep." No need to feel intimidated by how many posts, i.e.: "how well I can sit back and listen, enjoy, and learn" are made as opposed to spastic thrashing-about. By the way, if you have indeed happened to visit certain threads of certain R/C modeling websites, I hope you were able to come to the conclusion that "visualizing" and experiernce are light-years apart, and that you were dutifully entertained.
</div><div>The topic of this thread is thread is "<b style="font-family: tahoma, verdana, arial; font-size: 11px; ">Fabric covering questions" [/b]NOT "follow my links to me, me, me - worship ME!!!!!!!" How's 'bout we stay on topic?</div><div></div><div>I for one would like to see some experienced builders contribute to this thread. Chip has, can we hear from others? Or has this thread been commondeered in the interest of accommodating the blathering of Someone That Cannot Be Named Less The Mods Be Unhappy???</div> |
RE: Fabric covering questions
ORIGINAL: acdii Doing my first fabric job on a Chipmunk and I used store bought fabric, very light and sheer. Using Stix-it and Rustoleum, and it is starting to look very good. It takes longer but it look a lot better than iron on plastic. Would enjoy some pics of your Chippy.<br type="_moz" /> |
RE: Fabric covering questions
ORIGINAL: sensei I am a little disappointed Zor, I went to your build threads only to find that they were not your build threads at all, they are threads that somebody else started and you attached yourself too and posted only a few pictures and tidbits of inconclusive information. I was looking for some highly specialized start to finish building and flying work you have done that you could share with us. I do hope that your PA30 twin Camanche thread is more in line with the kind of leadership we need from a master craftsman such as yourself. Again, thanks in advance for your much needed impute on our building efforts. Bob For your information _ _ _ The thread dealing with the Skybolt was initiated by "biplane mufphy" and I was looking for anyone else building or having built a Skybolt. I found his thread and communicated with him. Please read post #128 and see post #131 in whicn biplanemurphy himself posted the first pictures of my Skybolt and that started the continuation. So I myself started posting in post #156. A similar situation occured about the Spectra. I was looking for anyone building a Spectra. The thread was initiated by "rickhensley". Please read post #7 and #9. I then started posting with #13. I was invited to post in both cases and certainly did not hijack any threads. I have dozens of pictures of the build of the Skybolt and the Spectra. including fabric and dope covering and finishing. Let me know any particular aspect you are interested in and I will gladly assist you. Note that I post what I do or did. I do not order people around and I try my best to backup and illustrate my work with pictures. Please note also that I do not have pictures of my work before I acquired a digital camera. I suggest that you may ask who posted that I would not respond for his history of his modeling work so you may find the real expertise. Personally I do not consider myself an expert nor a scale details adept. I like to glue for strong joints, modify for strength and cover and finish for added resistance to damages when landing improperly. I will gladly post how I do or did things if you have any particular aspect you may wish to ask about. Best regards from Zor |
RE: Fabric covering questions
<div><span style="font-family: Verdana, Arial; font-size: 13px; background-color: rgb(251, 252, 255); ">DOH![:@]
Sierra-Hotel! <br type="_moz" /></span></div> |
RE: Fabric covering questions
ORIGINAL: acdii Doing my first fabric job on a Chipmunk and I used store bought fabric, very light and sheer. Using Stix-it and Rustoleum, and it is starting to look very good. It takes longer but it look a lot better than iron on plastic. You have experienced yourself that light weight but strong fabric from "store bought" (ie: Fabricland) does a nice job. This material is not all pre-shrunk. If it is pre-shrunk it is marked as such on the spool label. Genuine aircraft dope itself does the shrinking and tighten up the covering. The only iron I have is the regular iron for ironing clothing and I do not use it on my models. I let the dope do its own tightening. Dope will keep on thightening for years and also gain lustre (shine) with time. I never wax my finish as I am happy with the natural dope appearance just like on full size airplanes. I do not know if Rustoleum has any shrinking characteristics. I have never used it. Quite a while ago I contacted Rustoleum and asked about resistance to glow fuel exhaust. I had to explain what glow fuel composition is and they replied that they had not tested for that. I am glad you are satisfied with your results. This fabric is considerably stronger than shrinking plastic and wll not tear in a bad landing. It will help to keep the structure with minimum damages if your first finishing coats were such as to bind (glue) every fabric thread to the frame of the model. Best to you from Zor. Edited to change "bsd" to "bad" |
RE: Fabric covering questions
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RE: Fabric covering questions
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