RE: Is Building Comming Back?
 

Perhaps the joy and satisfaction of building it yourself?

RE: Is Building Comming Back?
 

i am so sick of arfs. no arf will ever be built as good as a kit that one builds him self. i have had two arfs now and will never buy again. i wish the airplane manufacturers would kit many of the arfs out there. i fly my planes pretty hard and i have gone trough two arfs but my kit built ones are still dayin dayout solid flying planes. the manufactures make more money by having the slave shops in china make the things for less than what the material in the US cost and mark it up 400%. sorry i had to vent. just wish there were more kits out there and wish that some of the arfs were kits.

RE: Is Building Comming Back?
 

I've been waiting for a thread like this. Ive been thinking about this for a while. I agree - buiding is my hobby and flying is my sport - two very different things in so many ways.

I have taken pictures of every plane I've ever built. I keep them in a nice album and show anyone who asks. Funny thing I've never taken a picture of any of my ARFs. I've bought ARFs for the explicit purpose of flying when I didn't have a plane to suit .

I build airplanes for the extreme satisfaction it brings on so many levels. It's the process mostly and not the product although it is great to get compliments at the field. If I crash a pride and joy it doesn't bother me that much because I just remember the countless hours I spent building and looking at it. Then I grab an ARF and continue flying until the next build is ready.

I'm to the point where next winter I intend to build a Carden kit that costs as much as an ARF - you just can't get the same quality. Oh and by the way - how many of you are sick of reading RC magazine articles that talk about how easy this ARF was to "build" or this ARF is the best plane I've ever owned, or this ARF was an easy build. Sorry but you don't "build" an ARF, you assemble it. Something the workers at the factory could have done in 10 mins. for about $2.00.

RE: Is Building Comming Back?
 

Yes I know what yuou are talking about I just finished taking my world models skyraider apart and fixing everything that was wrong with it now to cover it again which is a pain because the surfaces are hinged already.Yhes [eople that build them never heard of glue or even getting the parts close to eachother before trying to glue them.Even had the control rod outer sleeve bent at a 90 between two formers,I went crazy trying to get the rod tru that.I usually build but this was a present from my wife so I had to assembly it.With everything I did after uncovering it could have built a kit.

RE: Is Building Comming Back?
 

Wow! I am impressed with the many pros and cons of these ARFs. My take on it,I am old school,I side with the guys out their who really look at RC aircraft as an art. I came up through the ranks like the old timers,I am not that old. I built the Guillows and Comet rubber band planes where all the parts were printed on balsa and you had to cut them out by hand. I one hand of the spectrum I can understand going out and buying these third world toilet aircraft if you are just starting in the hobby. Myself and the other older guys in this fraternity didn't have that luxury of ARFs in our day. We didn't even have buddy cords for trainers to help us fly our planes. Makes me sick every time I go to varous flying fields and watchthe same garbage being flown day in day out. What happened to the art of building a kit and being an individual? I even see some of the old timers breaking out ARFs. I can understand that sometimes but these guys are supposed to show the new kids what flying used to be all about. Don't want to hear some lame excuse that you don't have time to build a kit. BS. If you are truly a aviator in this hobby and love aircraft then you need to go buy a kit or one of the many kit cutters and BUILD. Let me tell you one thing,you will never ever have any better satisfaction when you show up at flying field with an aircraft you built yourself with all kinds of people gathered around your work of art let alone flying it in front of them. Get off your lazy asses and support USA kits manufacturers before it's too late. I just picked up a very hard to find Pica 1/5th P-40 Warhawk that sat on the shelf in a hobby store for a long time I bet. My gain your loss to you ARF guys because you may not see these kinds of kits again. I will build it myself and fly it at your flying field. I guarantee you when you see it you will think that is the baddest plane plane you ever saw built or fly,but guess what,it's not an ARF and no it's not for sale. You have to go build it for youself.

RE: Is Building Comming Back?
 

Don’t you think it might be possible to enjoy and appreciate a Mona Lisa or a Rembrandt without the ability to paint one?

It’s possible to admire the work of a craftsman without having the craftsman’s skills and it has nothing to do with ARF’s.

Can you write computer code? If not should you be allowed to post?


Bill

RE: Is Building Comming Back?
 

BillS - you're right, but a true art lover might at least try their hand at painting to further appreciate the art form or try more than just typing in responses to forums to get more out of their past time. It is all relative.

RE: Is Building Comming Back?
 

I knew things were getting bad when a Model Aviation article on assembling ARFs noted that there is a difference between "Ready-to-Fly" and "Almost-Ready-to-Fly". The "Almost" requires the use of glue.....Dang, I'm glad to know that.

I'd still rather do my own thing badly than pay someone to to do it for me.

RE: Is Building Comming Back?
 

I'm really aggrivated that everyone uses those dang new fangled ready to run radios!

And ... engines.... everywhere I look there's engine fresh off a factory assembly line!

What's a scratch builder to do!?

I probably wouldn't have anything to do with all this if it weren't for the fun of building. But that's me. Obviously, everyone makes their own choices.

RE: Is Building Comming Back?
 

Guy, Wrong on all counts, which is perfectly OK and not totally unexpected. The skill of others will continue to be admired and respected.

Bill

RE: Is Building Comming Back?
 

And modern flush toilets when they know nothing about plumbing.

Bill

RE: Is Building Comming Back?
 

Well clearly this has turned into ARFs bad, Kits Good. I am a builder, yes I have 1 ARF. It was a birthday present from a family member, a Uproar 40. One of the things that I find with this ARF is I fly the heck out of it. Probably because other than the radio and engine, if I slam it into the ground I certainly wouldn't be heart broken. It's just a plane.

Having said that, its certainly is not my plane. Its just one of thousands of pre-built, looks like every other, factory assembled, boxed up toys. I have never had anyone come up to me and say. Wow, what a good looking aircraft! I certainly would not every compare it to "Craftman's" work mention here before.

ARFs are "ME TOO" aircraft that do have a place. There are lots of poeple that don't build... Their loss! I get sick and tired of people saying that they don't have the skills to build. I didn't either until I actually built one! The only ARFs that even come close to "craftmanship" are probably from manufactures such as VQ or Valley. But these ARFs are huge, and have a craftsman's price tag starting at nearly $600.

I think the main issue that we have with ARFs is the disappearance of Kits. Just look at the Tower Catalog for 2006. I pulled out an old one (2000). Tower had a few ARFs and lots of Kits. Now they have 100s of ARFs and a few Kits.

ARFs are OK, but when the community starts to brag about their ARFs and how good they look and fly, what is the world coming to? To use the metaphor use earlier, that would like bragging about the Lithograph reproduction of the Mona Lisa. It may look good, but it is just something that another couple of thousand of people had. I certainly wouldn't compair it to the original or any original.

At my field when someone shows up with an ARF, you might get a "How does it fly", but everytime I show up with my Yak-3 and there is someone at the field that hasn't seen it, they always come over and ask "Did you build this? How did you paint it? Wow, it looks awesome!"

By an ARF and have fun, but don't take too much pride in it because even if you "recover" it. It is not your work, its not your plane, its just another copy built by $1.00/day laborers somewhere in the developing world. You can spin it anyway you want but that's the facts!

By a Kit and have fun building it, making it yours, unique, something you can take pride in. It is your work and you will fly it as such.

RE: Is Building Comming Back?
 

Nobody is born with finished skills. They have to be learned, developed, and practiced. Some people only have certain leanings toward developing a different skill set than other people. We had a couple sets of brothers and friends in our club over the years. One of the pair would most of the building, the other would do most of the flying.
We had at least one husband/wife team. The husband did the building and flying, while the wife did the covering. She could make iron-on coverings look like paint jobs.
Differentgift/skill sets. All part of the bigger picture.
A lot of people come into the sport/hobby through ARFs. Some move on (I am not saying UP) to building kits and plan/scratch building. Some stay with ARFs. A lot just get satiated and leave after a few flights or year.
ARFs are a part of life. They are not new. I've had a couple myself. I prefer to build my own, when I have time. Get used to them. They are a fact of life.

RE: Is Building Comming Back?
 

Agreed. ARFs are a fact of life. Unfortunately it is not an either/or situation any more. GP and Topflite discontinueing kits. Many GP kits are only available as ARFs. Royal gone, Pica gone, Sterling gone.... Choice is what it's about. Unfortuanately for us Kit builders, the choices are starting to get few!

ARFs make them, lots of them! Buy them and fly them. Have fun that's what it's about. But when they become the only choice it will be a tragedy for our hobby. I think the point of this thread to point out, that many of us kit builders are getting to a point where we are starting look at buy kits and supporting products from manufactures who are committed to providing as many options for kits as they do ARFs.

I stop by a new hobby shop last week end. Hundreds of ARFs (litterally) and not a single kit (unless you count Gillows). Trends are what they are, but I don't know why if you can build an ARF in Vietnam and sell it for $150 why you can cut a kit in Vietnam and sell it for $125???? We would all be happy.

RE: Is Building Comming Back?
 

Maybe it's like the head of Tyco trains said about 40 years ago about why they were cutting out their kits and concentraiting on their RTR line. The inventory process to ensure that all the parts were in the kit box and sorted into packages actually cost more in terms of manpower and time per unit than it did to have an assembly line build the models. To keep the kit prices enough under the RTR to get people to buy the kits, they had to have less than 1/2 the profit margine.

RE: Is Building Comming Back?
 

This place lists 213 kits:
http://www.greathobbies.com/scart/search.php3?Srch[cod]&Srch[cat]=AK&Srch[des]&Srch[lim]=500&Srch[DOSRCH]=Search

(many of which I wouldn't touch)

... and 251 ARFs
http://www.greathobbies.com/scart/search.php3?Srch[cod]&Srch[cat]=AR&Srch[des]&Srch[lim]=500&Srch[DOSRCH]=Search

(most of which I wouldn't touch... a couple maybe)

Then there are the "boutique" kits companies like ShyShark, BTEModels, and MosquitoBitesPlanes, etc,etc, Then there's is the "cutters" like Precision Cut Kits, et. al. I don't see a lack of kits. Plus, anyone who can run a CAD program these days can get their own design laser cut as accurately as their drafting skills allow. I think this is all gonna keep me busy for a while... assuming I have anytime to get to it.

I confess to having my eye on a Hobbico Twinstar to get some experience with twins. Well hmm... the GP Venus looks okay too.

(edit... you'll have to cut and paste the links to make them work)

RE: Is Building Comming Back?
 

buhhhh

RE: Is Building Comming Back?
 

I am just finishing up my Hog Bipe build, and one thing I can say is that I built it myself, and nobody elses will look just like mine. I have scratch built 1 Plane, and this is my 7th kit I have built. Each one is a labor of love, and twice the joy to fly. I also own some ARF's, but the ones I built myself are the ones I treasure the most, and if I happen to crash one, then I just break back out the Plans and build it again!

RE: Is Building Comming Back?
 

I started reading this thread just today, and after one hour I decided to skip to the end early to post the thoughts that I have been having.

As a caveat, I am a kit builder but I have owned several ARF models. Now, at the risk of sounding sappy, I do hope to see a return of kit building for a few reasons. First, there is nothing like the look of pride on the face of a pilot who just finished his newest kit and is showing it off. That speaks deeply in my opinion of the inherent need of humans to build. The second reason is that I think that building kits has the effect of building friendships, somehow sharing that experience leaves a mark. And third is the knowlege gained in the construction process. One reason that I think ARFs do not last as long as kits is the lack of knowledge of how the thing went together needed to put it back together after an unscheduled meeting with a solid object:D.

I know the intent of this thread was not to debate the relative benefits of ARF versus kit, so here is my observation on the subject. I was in a LHS today, and noticed this very issue. There are rows of ARFs, maybe 100 planes in total; there were only 5 kits:( As they say, variety is the spice of life.

The only way that I see kits making a comeback is through the efforts of kit builders by attempting to engage new ARF pilots as they enter the hobby in the joy of building, and by getting younger generations involved in kit building. What better way to get the kids off the couch and away from the TV than by having them build a plane?

In the end, human nature is what it is and some people will never display any desire to build, while others will never display any desire to buy an ARF. Both are perfectly acceptable situations so long as the atmosphere continues to support our efforts to beat it into submission!

I enjoyed all of your posts, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

RE: Is Building Comming Back?
 

Is this the same problem people have working on new cars? Could a car be considered Ready to Drive? If something goes wrong, people don't know how to fix it because they don't understand how they work or went together. I work on newer cars and have no formal training from a dealership. I guess I'm just a freak. I also fly ARFs. I don't have the time right now to build a kit, although I want to someday. I'm 25, have to work, and love to fly. I built a lot of plastic models when I was younger, so I have a general idea of how things work. I have also rebuilt a few ARFs. Not sure what that makes me, a RC mechanic?

RE: Is Building Comming Back?
 

Vertigo72480 - That is a great analogy, albeit a new car is a bit more complex than your everyday ARF:D

RE: Is Building Comming Back?
 

Analogy? Well here is the way I see it.

Your neighbor(RC Buddy) just bought a new Puppy(ARF). Your wife(Hater of all things) thinks it is the cutest thing, and you also think that it will grow to be a great dog. All the other neighbors(RCU Members) think the puppy(ARF) is great as well, and many have asked if there are others like it in the same litter(Hobby Shop) for sale?

After a week goes by, you are standing at the window by the kitchen sink, and you happen to notice the neighbors(RC Buddy) new puppy(ARF) taking a nice dump on your lawn(Built Plane)) that you have worked so hard to maintain this year. The puppy(ARF) is not quite so cute to you now, and you lean out your back door and yell at it.

After yelling at the Puppy(ARF), it awakes your wife(Hater of all things), and she asks you what you are yelling at? You tell her about what the puppy(ARF) did to your nice lawn(Built Plane), but she quickly lets you know that the puppy(ARF) is so cute, and that the cute little puppy(ARF) don't know any better. You begin to think maybe you shouldn't have yelled at the puppy(ARF).

The next morning you awake to spy the cute little puppy(ARF) taking another nice dump on your freshly mowed lawn(Built Plane), and there across the way it appears the other neighbor(another RC Buddy) has bought a puppy(ARF) from the same litter(hobby Shop) as the one neighbor(Flying Buddy), and his puppy(ARF) is also taking a nice big dump in your lawn(Built Plane) as well. You are extremely angry at this point, and you are not going to let a couple crapping puppies(ARFs) destroy what you have worked so hard all year to keep up! You know that the whole neighborhood(80% RCU) loves these puppies(ARFs), but to protect what you love you head for gun cabinet(RCU Forums). You stop for only a second to decide on which shells to use, and quickly decide on the DEER SLUGS(Flaming/Degrading)! These puppies(ARFs) are going down!

RE: Is Building Comming Back?
 

(LOL!!!!!)
M R 2 Puppies
M R Not
O S A R, C M P N
SHOOT DM Dam Puppies

RE: Is Building Comming Back?
 

I CAN ONLY ADD TO THE COMMENTS WHICH ARE ALL VALID THAT YES I AM OF THE OPINION THAT ARFS ARE HERE TO STAY AND NO I DISAGREE THAT SCRATCH BUILDERS ARE A DYING BREED. THE REASONS ARE SIMPLE IF YOU ARE INTO SCALE YOU ARE ALWAYS LOOKING FOR SOMETHING NO ONE ESLE IS FLYING FOR A SHOW. THE OTHER REASONS ARE ALSO SIMPLE MY THOUGHTS ON ARFS ARE THEY ARE MADE TO BREAK OTHER WISE THERE WOULD BE A LOT OF COMPANIES OUT OF BUSINESS NO PUN INTENDED BUT I HAVE BUILT TWO ARFS AND HAVE NOW GONE BACK TO BUILDING MY OWN DESIGNS THE ARFS DID NOT LAST LONG ALL THOUGH THE TWO I BUILT FLEW GREAT UNTIL CONTINUAL LANDINGS WEAKENED THE UNDERCARRIAGE MOTOR MOUNTS STARTED TO COME LOOSE AND ALL SORTS OF OTHER BOTHER. THEY ARE NOT AS STRONG AS A SELF BUILT MODEL.INCIDENTLY I WAS AWAY FROM THE FLYING FIELDS FOR NEARLY TWENTY YEARS BEFORE STARTING UP AGAIN AND NOT MUCH HAS CHANGED EXCEPT TECHNOLOGY THE OLD WRINKLIES WILL STILL TEACH THOSE THAT ARE WILLING TO LEARN HOW TO BUILD AND BE PROUD OF THEIR ACHIEVEMENTS I WAS PRIVY TO A YOUNGSTERS EFFORTS IN BUILDING A SMALL RUBBER POWERED MODEL AND WHAT A RUSH TO SEE IT FLY SO WELL AND WHEN ASKED HOW HE HAD MANAGED THE REPLY WAS MY DAD TAUGHT ME HOW AND NOW THAT HE IS GONE THIS IS HOW I PASS MY TIME WHEN I NEED TO BE NEAR HIM. SOME FOOD FOR THOUGHT PERHAPS?

RE: Is Building Comming Back?
 

:(