Whatever happened to the kits?
 

It does seem like everything is a ARF or RTF these days. I'm happy to see that some are still kits, but are all the kits being sold to old timers? I probably qualify as an "old timer" but I'd never call myself that! I love to build kits. The ARF "kits" are so cheap and look so good that I'm often tempted to get one to play with - But I'd like as not modify it. I would fly an ARF or RTF with no qualms about crashing it, I woudn't have 200 hours into it so I'd not be so careful! Maybe that is a good use for ARF's, practice kits that you have no sweat and blood into.

I'm just getting _back_ into flying after years of other distractions and the new radio equipment and ESPECIALLY the brushless electrics have me thrilled. I'm done with the bottle of Windex and roll of paper towels after a flight session. I know the LiPo batteries are more expensive, but they are worth it to me to get rid of the crankyness of the nitro and weed whacker engines.

Still, I'll build my kits because I love the process of creation and having something that no one else has!

DLC

RE: Whatever happened to the kits?
 

I love building too - actually more than flying, but I think the hobby shops make more money with the ARFs and RTFs. Just my opinion tho.

RE: Whatever happened to the kits?
 

Coming from me: a guy thats built 2 kits and had 20+ ARF airplanes....I think ARF aircraft are the current "next generation"
Even the big, complicated designs are being produced as ARF. Alot of people, including myself, like to spend more time flying and do it as quickly as possible. The patience involved in building a kit, whether it be a car or plane, has all but dissapeared with todays hobbyists.

"old timers" or just dedicated hobbyists dont mind building a kit but your numbers are dwindling. Soon, kits will be as abundant as cox control line.

RE: Whatever happened to the kits?
 

I can't wait for the day when I can just fire up my laptop and my mega money RTF and watch my laptop fly my RTF! No problem knowing who to blame for a crash.

RE: Whatever happened to the kits?
 

Well.....30 of them are stocked on my shelves. I have been building my stash the last 5 or so years as it seems obvious the direction they are headed. I admit its hard to beat most ARFS these days to get into the air fast with a decent quality sport plane and I have several but I still love to build when I have time.

Steve

RE: Whatever happened to the kits?
 

There are still A lot of nice kits out there for those with enough skill to build one and have some pride in what they fly. However the ARF is here to stay and the kits are going to be A thing of the past or out of most pilots price range in not too many years.
I took to building from plans some years ago just to be able to have A plane different from what everyone else had. It's fun and easy plus most of the time I can do it for way less money, sometimes not.
If I was just getting into or back into the hobby I too would be going electric. The price of the high dollar batteries comes out cheaper by far at the end of the year when you figure out how much you spent on glow fuel, that's one of the reasons I moved over to gas too, I really hate having to clean off the engine snot at the end of the day.

RE: Whatever happened to the kits?
 

Kits for me. I enjoy both aspects of the hobby just as much as the other. If the day comes that quality kits do disappear then I'll scratch them. Nothing against ARF's, there are quite a few nice examples out there but they just don't hold the allure for me. And no I'm not an old timer ( hope to be one day though;))

Dan

RE: Whatever happened to the kits?
 

ARFs may be indeed be the wave of the future however I think the manufacturers would do well to start increasing the quality [dramatically]. I have assembled two ARFs (different manufacturers) for others and so far I have seen little more than cheap, flimsy and sloppy construction. The covering material, whatever they are using, is pathetic. I realize that two is a very small sampling however forums are full of similar impressions as to ARF quality.

I love to build so I'm probably never going to be an ARF fan however if there were some truly well built ARFs, with first rate materials, I might eventually like to own one or two.

Maybe there should be two classes of ARF. One that looks good from a distance and is cheap. The other, one that IS good and is not covered with advertising. Not everyone would shy away from the inevitable higher price.

RE: Whatever happened to the kits?
 

Flying is a sport.

Building is a hobby.

I like to build. I used to do it all the time, but now my time is at a premium. The last kit I built (Outside of one I did for a review) took over 2 years to finish.

So if you like to fly, but don't like to build, get an ARF.

If you like to build, get a Kit.

And BTW, in case some of you Kit Builders haven't heard, Great Planes has re-introduced several of their best kits (Ultra Sport 40 & 60 Super Sportster 40 & 60 and the Tracer)

If you've never flown an Ultra Sport, you've never flown!

RE: Whatever happened to the kits?
 

This already exists, they are called custom built ariframes. There are lots of pattern and IMAC aircraft built by a pro builder for someone who wants a quality airframe but is unable/unwilling to build his own. The price rises with the quality, drastically. That is why you will not see truly high quality ARF's in quantity. The reason they have taken over is that they offer decent (not high, just decent) quality for the money and to many fliers the time saved is worth the money. Compared to a well built kit or scratch build, ARF's will always come out looking second best, but that doesn't matter to many people.

Builders will always be around, because creating your own flying machine from a pile of wood and a set of plans appeals to some people (me included) and that will not go away. But I am afraid that large scale kit manufacturing WILL disappear in time. The kits of the future are going to come from small niche market producers, as we see now in profile fun fly planes and other specialty market aircraft. They can run with low overhead, and are very responsive to changing market trends. The big guys can only dream of such things and will drop off because of it.

Mark

RE: Whatever happened to the kits?
 

A fundamental truth dawned on me not long ago...

If you like things that fly, you're an ARF fan.

If you like the art of flight, you're a builder.

:)

RE: Whatever happened to the kits?
 

Very well said....

RE: Whatever happened to the kits?
 

I don't think kit building will go away.. But I do believe the number and variety of kits available will thin down. We'll be limited to the more commonly sold models by the bigger companies.

But we'll see less and less of the "uncommon" planes made into kits, simply because there won't be the demand. At best we'll see limited runs of these planes. That's why, when I have the money, I'm buying a US40 and US60 kit, even though I don't plan on building them for a couple years yet. Gotta get them while they're available.

RE: Whatever happened to the kits?
 

If you're interested in kits for electrics, Mountain Models and Stevens Aeromodel have some nice laser-cut kits. These are mostly smaller airplanes though.

RE: Whatever happened to the kits?
 

Thanks. :)

Really though...I don't think either is "bad" or "better" or "more of a modeler" or anything...it just seems to me that, even among aviation enthusiasts (and I see this in full scale as well as RC) that there are 2 separate groups.

One group is fascinated by flight. If it has wings and flies, they're interested in watching it, playing with it, flying it, whatever. It is, however, the act of flight itself that moves them. Sure, they see an airplane on the ground and think "neat...airplane", but the "magic" just isn't there unless it's in flight. It is my belief (however wrong it may be) that these folks tend to see airplanes as amazing machines...the science behind them is compelling, the mechanisms that allow them to fly are "amazing", and so on...but they are, ultimately, still machines.

These folks, imho at least, tend to buy and fly ARFs...and they also tend to want to fly the nicest, prettiest, best airplanes they can as full scale pilots.

Then there's another group (of which I am a member). We too are fascinated by flight...if it flies, we want to be a part of it...watching, flying, controlling, riding, whatever. But for us, the airplane isn't a machine...it's a living,breathing thing. It has, for lack of a better word, a soul. We think Wolfgang Langewiesche's Stick and Rudder : An explanation of the Art of Flying, despite being 50+ years old, is STILL the greatest work on the subject of aviation ever penned. (All you kit builders out there..if you HAVEN'T read it, do yourself a favor and do so ASAP. It was written for full scale pilots, but trust me...ole Wolfgang "got it" like few before or since.) In short, flying isn't a question of physics, so much as it is an "emotion".

We, again imho, tend more to be builders (or at least enjoy the craft). Perhaps it is BECAUSE we think airplanes have "souls" that this is so...we want to be a part of that soul's creation, and shaping, so to speak.

*shrug*

Or perhaps I'm just being WAYYYYYYYYYYY to philosophical for a silly RC message board. :)

RE: Whatever happened to the kits?
 

Your question has been answered. The ARF is what has happened to kits. Hobby Shops stock what sells, and the ARF sells better than does the kit. Now, most of us buy the plans and cut our own kits, or have a custom kit cutter cut them for us. Believe it or not, you get a better kit that way. There is no poor die crunching, and the parts fit much better. Also, you can select the quality of the wood. Try plans building. You may find out that you like it better than building a traditional kit.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

RE: Whatever happened to the kits?
 

I have been preparing for future times. As loser (Steve), I have been accumulating kits I like. My current count on my shelves is 15, plus 3 sets of plans.

I am building a kit now. But at same time, I am practicing some scratch building by replacing low quality balsa and plywood and cutting my own parts. Also, I am practicing not building over the plans. I spent the last six months doing research on different building techniques and tools used by other builders. So, I am using the plans for directions and measurements only, using different glue, and new tools.

So far, I am going better than last time. My building skill level has double from my last kit because I have understood the difference between building fast and fly okay; and bulding true, take your time, and fly true.

I have nothing against ARFs as I understand the nature of business. But, I too consider building a form of art.

my 2 cents.

RE: Whatever happened to the kits?
 

You've nailed it, for me at least.

Half of the fun of a plane is the process of building it and seeing it take shape. 40% of it is the beauty of the final product, the last 10% is flying it. I can use my flight simulator is all I want to do is fly, that is cheaper yet than an ARF. It is the art and beauty of the craft that draws me in.

I suspect this is the reason that I don't care much for ducted fans. Jets (in my eye) are ugly functional beasts with no consideration for aesthetics, they are pure functional mayhem. WWII and WWI aircraft are (again, to my eye) artistic, creative and attractive works of functional art. Burt Rutan is the only jet designer out there IMO that gets this. His craft are beautiful to behold, flying or not. Compare Spaceship One to the Space Shuttle, 'nuff said.

DLC

RE: Whatever happened to the kits?
 

That happens a lot when you're around, Bill. ;)

To each his own, really. Now see, I'm a bit different along some of those lines...

First, flying the finished product is MUCH more than 10% for me...that "soul" I spoke of earlier takes on a very special meaning to me when I fully "experience" it in the air. Again...not a "right or wrong" thing, just a personal taste. :)

And I couldn't disagree more about jets. *heh* I'm certainly in your camp when it comes to Rutan...he is, imo, every bit as "ahead of his time" as was Howard Hughes...and perhaps more so in some ways. And you're right (imo)...his creations speak of a deeper appreciation for the magic of flight than any other designer before or since.

However, while there are certainly some UGLY jets running around, a great many of them (to me at least) are true works of art. The F4 Phantom comes to mind...it's soul lies in its "ridiculous" look. Angles everywhere, bits and pieces jutting out in strange directions....heck, the airplane is, my father always said, PROOF of the idea that given sufficient thrust, ANYthing will fly. And yet, even sitting still (and certainly roaring through the sky belching huge clouds of black smoke), it just says "I'm ugly, I'm fat, and I'm inefficient, but by god, DO NOT tangle with me"...its "beauty", to me at least, stems from its apparent complete disregard for looks. :) And, I guess, that's really what we're both saying here...that ability to "personify" what is, in reality, nothing but a collection of bolts and metal and wire, and perceive that it has "an attitude", or that it is saying something to us.

================

On a lark, I went out and counted. In my shop, as I type this, there is 1 kit in the box, 1 pile of balsa and plans and wing cores and a fuse sitting on or around the build table, and 37 rolled sets of plans (many of which I'll probably never build, I know).

I really have to agree with Stickbuilder here...while it's certainly one thing to have a "kit", ultimately, the difference between a "kit" and a "scratch build" is just a pile of balsa, really. Sure, there might be a cowl or canopy or something, but for the most part, it's just wood...and often poorly cut or selected wood at that, or perhaps simply OLD wood that has picked up some moisture over the years. So, while "kits" may go away, I don't think BUILDING ever will.

RE: Whatever happened to the kits?
 

I have never understood the Hobby and Sport idea. Flying the plane you built has always been part of the hobby. Scratch building never split between drawing your own plans or building from someone elses plans. I started seeing these ideas over the last few years and figured it was just splitting hairs.
Flying RC is as much A sport as sincronized swimming. {Or Spelling Bees} :D

RE: Whatever happened to the kits?
 

The curves and lines of a F18 Hornet get me going - I just didn't say that out loud did I ?

Dan

RE: Whatever happened to the kits?
 

I have found about 30 wonderful old, out of production, scale kits on Ebay. They will probably burry me with half of them. You can find just about anything that you ever wanted, but couldn't afford in your youth on Ebay. I would add this. I think there was a very large and pent up supply of old kits a few years ago. I do believe the vast majority have found new owners. The quality stuff still makes an appearance, but not nearly as often. And when the good kits show up, the bidding gets serious and fast.
Here is a 30 year old Bonanza kit that I am building right now.....................

RE: Whatever happened to the kits?
 

The Bonanza looks great - but I'd like to know more about the Harrier plans in the background.........

Dan

RE: Whatever happened to the kits?
 

I'm a builder. Flying forces me to be one. [&o]

I have scratch built three planes in the last year and two kits and one (B)ARF. I just started an old Great Planes Super Aeromaster. I know that this is a discontinued kit, but I haven't had to mess with off sized stringer slots and miss cut pieces since the old 10cents Comet kits. I guess the 4*60 kits spoiled me. Every thing fit and it went together quite quickly. The Super Aeromaster is a different story. The design would be great if stuff were laser cut, but the die cut stuff is awful. Two identical formers that are not symetrical for example.

If most kits were like the 4*, I think you would see a lot more of them on the market because most people could build them. As most of them were like the Super Aeromaster, well you see the results.

Don

RE: Whatever happened to the kits?
 

Scratch building...just a few more balsa chips and a little more time an you have a kit to build from! lol