Final word on silk and dope?
08-11-2009 | 09:31 AM
#1
Thread Starter
Final word on silk and dope?
So I'm just about to place my order for some SIG dope and what to get any last minute input. I've already ordered and received silk from both Dharma and Thai Silks and now need to order the dope. I'm thinking of the following:
1. One quart of Supercoat clear (Butyrate, high shrinkage)
2. One quart of Lite-coat (Butyrate, lower shrinkage)
But I'm not sure if I need to also get some nitrate dope. From what people have said so far it sounds like I can just use butyrate for everything. My only concern is whether the butyrate provides a good surface for further painting (such as with Nelson's paints or latex).
1. One quart of Supercoat clear (Butyrate, high shrinkage)
2. One quart of Lite-coat (Butyrate, lower shrinkage)
But I'm not sure if I need to also get some nitrate dope. From what people have said so far it sounds like I can just use butyrate for everything. My only concern is whether the butyrate provides a good surface for further painting (such as with Nelson's paints or latex).
08-11-2009 | 10:13 AM
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From: Lone Rock, WI
RE: Final word on silk and dope?
I am getting ready to do my first Koverall covering job. I decided to just do what the manufacturer recommended (Sig) and so I bought Nitrate Dope as well as StickIt. I haven't decided which method to use yet, leaning towards Nitrate dope for adhesion and first coats (traditional). While you are not using Koverall and I am not sure what the recommended method is for your material, I read a lot on this and only a couple times did I read where guys use exclusively butyrate dope. I am sure it will work just fine but I wanted to follow the recommended methods for my fist covering job. Good Luck.
The shipping was a tad slow from Sig (Iowa to Wisconsin) so I can't imagine how long you will be waiting for it to arrive.
The shipping was a tad slow from Sig (Iowa to Wisconsin) so I can't imagine how long you will be waiting for it to arrive.
08-11-2009 | 10:17 AM
#3
Thread Starter
RE: Final word on silk and dope?
ORIGINAL: Showtime100
The shipping was a tad slow from Sig (Iowa to Wisconsin) so I can't imagine how long you will be waiting for it to arrive.
The shipping was a tad slow from Sig (Iowa to Wisconsin) so I can't imagine how long you will be waiting for it to arrive.
I suppose I should just go ahead and get a quart of the nitryate as well so that I'm fully stocked for experiments.
08-11-2009 | 10:46 AM
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RE: Final word on silk and dope?
Guys: Due to a serious headache problem traditional aircraft dopes are out of the picture. Would anyone have thoughts/comments on whether or not I could use clear water-base MinWax PolyC to seal the wood framework on my plan build, electric powered, Midwest Tri-Squire, and also use the PolyC to attach the silk and seal the weave. This would allow me to avoid the fumes of traditional model dope and then I'd paint the trim on with something like Warbird colors water-base paint. Thanks!
Soft landings.
Joe
Soft landings.
Joe
08-11-2009 | 11:05 AM
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From: Perrysburg , OH
RE: Final word on silk and dope?
The silk won't shrink and would not look good as a result. Abu, The nitrate provides greater filling and adhesian to the silk. You can do without if so inclined but beware of internal drips. leave the first coat of nitrate a little thicker to help avoid this also. Do you have links on your sources listed above for the silk??
08-11-2009 | 11:20 AM
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From: Lone Rock, WI
RE: Final word on silk and dope?
ORIGINAL: squeakalong
Guys: Due to a serious headache problem traditional aircraft dopes are out of the picture. Would anyone have thoughts/comments on whether or not I could use clear water-base MinWax PolyC to seal the wood framework on my plan build, electric powered, Midwest Tri-Squire, and also use the PolyC to attach the silk and seal the weave. This would allow me to avoid the fumes of traditional model dope and then I'd paint the trim on with something like Warbird colors water-base paint. Thanks!
Soft landings.
Joe
Guys: Due to a serious headache problem traditional aircraft dopes are out of the picture. Would anyone have thoughts/comments on whether or not I could use clear water-base MinWax PolyC to seal the wood framework on my plan build, electric powered, Midwest Tri-Squire, and also use the PolyC to attach the silk and seal the weave. This would allow me to avoid the fumes of traditional model dope and then I'd paint the trim on with something like Warbird colors water-base paint. Thanks!
Soft landings.
Joe
08-11-2009 | 12:08 PM
#8
Thread Starter
RE: Final word on silk and dope?
No problem squeakalong, I've thought about the same thing. I hate working with dope but want to try an "old style" finish. I've used Polycrylic to seal polyspan but the polyspan is a heat shrink material.
Dave, here's a post by pd1 from my DrI thread, which provides the links and some a good summary on using silk. I ordered the 5mm silk that Paul recommends. It's incredibly light stuff.
Dave, here's a post by pd1 from my DrI thread, which provides the links and some a good summary on using silk. I ordered the 5mm silk that Paul recommends. It's incredibly light stuff.
ORIGINAL: pd1
Here's a couple of things I've found out about silk and dope.
Nitrate can't be applied over butyrate. It will react and ruin your finish.
Nitrate is very flammable compared to butyrate.
Nitrate has a little better adhesive qualities compared to butyrate.
Nitrate requires additional fuel proofing.
Nitrate stops shrinking after a couple of days.
Butyrate shrinks for a long, long time.
Covering. I don't use nitrate anymore, so to increase the adhesiveness of the butyrate I coat the bare structure with butyrate until the wood picks up a shine.
Then apply my silk. Spay the silk with water and get the wrinkles out.
I use a lot of thinner with just a little dope to stick the silk.
The thinner passes through the silk and softens the dope underneath sticking the silk down.
If you accidentally get some of the thinned dope on the silk, there is not enough dope to curl the silk.
If you hold a wing horizontal while doping, especially with dope that hasn't been thinned a lot, the dope will drip through and make an ugly ''ring'' on the other side of the wing.
To avoid that when doing wing panels, just use very thin dope and hold the surface vertical.
The thinned dope will not leave a ring, and if the panel is vertical the dope will stay on the side you are doping.
A couple of drops of Castor oil in the dope will act as a plasticizer and will slow dope from drying out over a long time.
Silk. I've found that there are at least two different silks that shrink different from each other.
The silk from Thai silk seems to be pre shrunk and doesn't shrink much if at all after covering.
This is good for delicate structures.
http://www.thaisilks.com/product_inf...22fba3399425a4
The silk I like from there is the 5mm 021F-000 Habotai.
If you want silk that shrinks more, the silk from Dharma Trading is for you.
It's great for stronger structures.
http://www.dharmatrading.com/html/eng/3374-AA.shtml
I use the 5mm. HS536 or the HS545 same but 45 inches wide.
I've found the 5mm silk is lighter than any other covering, including tissue and the weave is so tight that it doesn't take much clear to fill.
Before you ask,mm is not milimeters. ''MM is Momme.
Momme (pronounced ''mommy'' and abbreviated ''mm'') expresses the weight in pounds of a piece of material of size 45 inches by 100 yards. So, for example, a 50 yd. bolt of our 5mm 45'' Habotai Silk fabric (#HS545) would weigh 2.5 lbs. (plus the weight of the cardboard tube it is wrapped around, of course).
The higher the momme, the heavier and stronger the fabric. Anything above 28 momme is considered heavy-weight and generally used for curtains or heavier outer-garments. Silk under 20 momme is considered lightweight, and generally used for light blouses with a chiffon feel. Medium-weight silk (20 to 28 momme) is excellent for silk scarves, furnishings, wedding dresses and the ultimate luxury of silk sheets.'' Dharma Trading.
5 mm silk is extremely light.
A sheet 45 inches wide by 300 feet long would only weigh 5 pounds.
Drying out and rot. Unless you leave the silk in direct sunlight, the silk won't rot.
What actually happens over time the dope becomes hard and brittle. The silk is saturated with the dope and when the dope cracks, so does the silk.
I just started removing silk that was applied 40 years ago. The silk is fine, the dope isn't.
I've been trying other finishes over silk to try to reduce the shrinking of dope. I tried water based polyurethane (wbpu) sold here as Min Wax polycrillic. It's promising, but I haven't gotten a technique that gives me only the advantages of the wbpu and no disadvantages.
Dope, I find I use twice as much thinner as dope.
This has gotten a bit too long so I'll stop.
I'll be happy to answer any questions
Paul
Here's a couple of things I've found out about silk and dope.
Nitrate can't be applied over butyrate. It will react and ruin your finish.
Nitrate is very flammable compared to butyrate.
Nitrate has a little better adhesive qualities compared to butyrate.
Nitrate requires additional fuel proofing.
Nitrate stops shrinking after a couple of days.
Butyrate shrinks for a long, long time.
Covering. I don't use nitrate anymore, so to increase the adhesiveness of the butyrate I coat the bare structure with butyrate until the wood picks up a shine.
Then apply my silk. Spay the silk with water and get the wrinkles out.
I use a lot of thinner with just a little dope to stick the silk.
The thinner passes through the silk and softens the dope underneath sticking the silk down.
If you accidentally get some of the thinned dope on the silk, there is not enough dope to curl the silk.
If you hold a wing horizontal while doping, especially with dope that hasn't been thinned a lot, the dope will drip through and make an ugly ''ring'' on the other side of the wing.
To avoid that when doing wing panels, just use very thin dope and hold the surface vertical.
The thinned dope will not leave a ring, and if the panel is vertical the dope will stay on the side you are doping.
A couple of drops of Castor oil in the dope will act as a plasticizer and will slow dope from drying out over a long time.
Silk. I've found that there are at least two different silks that shrink different from each other.
The silk from Thai silk seems to be pre shrunk and doesn't shrink much if at all after covering.
This is good for delicate structures.
http://www.thaisilks.com/product_inf...22fba3399425a4
The silk I like from there is the 5mm 021F-000 Habotai.
If you want silk that shrinks more, the silk from Dharma Trading is for you.
It's great for stronger structures.
http://www.dharmatrading.com/html/eng/3374-AA.shtml
I use the 5mm. HS536 or the HS545 same but 45 inches wide.
I've found the 5mm silk is lighter than any other covering, including tissue and the weave is so tight that it doesn't take much clear to fill.
Before you ask,mm is not milimeters. ''MM is Momme.
Momme (pronounced ''mommy'' and abbreviated ''mm'') expresses the weight in pounds of a piece of material of size 45 inches by 100 yards. So, for example, a 50 yd. bolt of our 5mm 45'' Habotai Silk fabric (#HS545) would weigh 2.5 lbs. (plus the weight of the cardboard tube it is wrapped around, of course).
The higher the momme, the heavier and stronger the fabric. Anything above 28 momme is considered heavy-weight and generally used for curtains or heavier outer-garments. Silk under 20 momme is considered lightweight, and generally used for light blouses with a chiffon feel. Medium-weight silk (20 to 28 momme) is excellent for silk scarves, furnishings, wedding dresses and the ultimate luxury of silk sheets.'' Dharma Trading.
5 mm silk is extremely light.
A sheet 45 inches wide by 300 feet long would only weigh 5 pounds.
Drying out and rot. Unless you leave the silk in direct sunlight, the silk won't rot.
What actually happens over time the dope becomes hard and brittle. The silk is saturated with the dope and when the dope cracks, so does the silk.
I just started removing silk that was applied 40 years ago. The silk is fine, the dope isn't.
I've been trying other finishes over silk to try to reduce the shrinking of dope. I tried water based polyurethane (wbpu) sold here as Min Wax polycrillic. It's promising, but I haven't gotten a technique that gives me only the advantages of the wbpu and no disadvantages.
Dope, I find I use twice as much thinner as dope.
This has gotten a bit too long so I'll stop.
I'll be happy to answer any questions
Paul
08-11-2009 | 12:39 PM
#10
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RE: Final word on silk and dope?
Showtime100: Why the bull**** [:'(]...and then you bother to answer the question? This IS about silk and dope isn't it?
abufletcher: Sorry, my friend! I thought I could get an answer to a question that would shed some possibilities for using silk covering again without the serious headaches. No intention of any hi-jack was intended.
Soft landings.
Joe
abufletcher: Sorry, my friend! I thought I could get an answer to a question that would shed some possibilities for using silk covering again without the serious headaches. No intention of any hi-jack was intended.
Soft landings.
Joe
08-11-2009 | 12:58 PM
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From: NaucalpanMexico, MEXICO
RE: Final word on silk and dope?
Abu...
Try Aircraft Spruce and Specialty..
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/
They carry the nitrate dope in tautening and non tautening... I have allways used tautening and then butyrate for finishing.
Hope this works..
Cheers
Try Aircraft Spruce and Specialty..
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/
They carry the nitrate dope in tautening and non tautening... I have allways used tautening and then butyrate for finishing.
Hope this works..
Cheers
08-11-2009 | 01:21 PM
#12
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RE: Final word on silk and dope?
From what I understand, both Brodak and Sig get their dope from aircraft spruce or the same manufacturer. It is totaly compatible. This is nice because you could get your large quantities of thinner and clear from Aircraft spruce and then you small amounts of colored from Sig or Brodak. I used the Aircraft spruce on my 1/4 fokker and loved it. Nothing works better than dope, it just smells so bad.
08-11-2009 | 01:24 PM
#13
RE: Final word on silk and dope?
DON'T USE NITRATE. The reason we use nitrate is because the Butyrate will not bond to polyester fabric. Hence, we try to achieve that bond with Nitrate then sneak up on the bond with butyrate. If you're only using silk, silkspan, wraping paper, or any fabric other than polyester, only use Butyrate.
Beware if you order flammables from aircraft supply companies, ask if they intend to charge you a HAZMAT fee in addition to the shipping costs. That could more than double the costs of your paints.
Dope, Tautening and Non-tautening, is available from F&M Enterprises ( [email protected] ) with no HAZMAT fee for shipping. It is usually shipped within 24 hours of receiving the order.
Beware if you order flammables from aircraft supply companies, ask if they intend to charge you a HAZMAT fee in addition to the shipping costs. That could more than double the costs of your paints.
Dope, Tautening and Non-tautening, is available from F&M Enterprises ( [email protected] ) with no HAZMAT fee for shipping. It is usually shipped within 24 hours of receiving the order.
08-11-2009 | 01:46 PM
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From: Lone Rock, WI
RE: Final word on silk and dope?
ORIGINAL: squeakalong
Showtime100: Why the bull**** [:'(]...and then you bother to answer the question? This IS about silk and dope isn't it?
abufletcher: Sorry, my friend! I thought I could get an answer to a question that would shed some possibilities for using silk covering again without the serious headaches. No intention of any hi-jack was intended.
Soft landings.
Joe
Showtime100: Why the bull**** [:'(]...and then you bother to answer the question? This IS about silk and dope isn't it?
abufletcher: Sorry, my friend! I thought I could get an answer to a question that would shed some possibilities for using silk covering again without the serious headaches. No intention of any hi-jack was intended.
Soft landings.
Joe
If you are looking for no fumes, give the Mod-Podge a try. It can be thinned with water and is a sealer and adhesive. I think it is around $5 or $6 at a craft store. I have read where guys then used MinWax Polc, several coats and sanded. Then a auto-paint primer like Duplicolor and then a latex water based paint for the finish color.
08-11-2009 | 03:55 PM
#15
Thread Starter
RE: Final word on silk and dope?
Mil gracias, adibac! Your post nudged me to check out Aircraft Spruce and I discovered that they are located just a 30min. drive away so I hopped in the car and zipped on over and now have my supplies in my hot little hands with no waiting and no shipping charges (and no hazmat charges)! Wahoo! 
Now let's just see if I manage to get them back to Japan. [
] Here's what I bought:
1 quart non-taughtening nitrate
1 quart non-taughtening butyrate
1 quart taughtening butyrate
nitrate thinner
butyrate thinner
Cheaper than ordering from SIG. That should just about do me!
Now let's just see if I manage to get them back to Japan. [] Here's what I bought:1 quart non-taughtening nitrate
1 quart non-taughtening butyrate
1 quart taughtening butyrate
nitrate thinner
butyrate thinner
Cheaper than ordering from SIG. That should just about do me!
08-11-2009 | 04:05 PM
#16
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RE: Final word on silk and dope?
abufletcher....a, my friend...I can NOW say I see the error of my gray-headed OF ways in my initial post above! [] I mentioned a Midwest Tri-Squire in an R/C Scale thread.[][X(][&o]!!! YIKES!!!! Had been roaming around the threads and had visited the "old timer" spot and just forgot where I was..but wait....I'm building a model of a model that I once flew..so is this new model, the one I'm building now...a scale model of the model I once modeled? 
[8D]
. Anyhow, my apologies to all!
Soft landing.
Joe
] I mentioned a Midwest Tri-Squire in an R/C Scale thread.[][X(][&o]!!! YIKES!!!! Had been roaming around the threads and had visited the "old timer" spot and just forgot where I was..but wait....I'm building a model of a model that I once flew..so is this new model, the one I'm building now...a scale model of the model I once modeled? [8D]. Anyhow, my apologies to all!Soft landing.
Joe
08-11-2009 | 06:50 PM
#18
RE: Final word on silk and dope?
abufletcher: I hope you're going by boat. When they catch you with the flammables aboard an aircraft you won't be able to afford batteries for your transmitter. Since 9/11 they don't fool around, either here or Japan.
08-11-2009 | 06:52 PM
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From: Lone Rock, WI
RE: Final word on silk and dope?
ORIGINAL: squeakalong
abufletcher....a, my friend...I can NOW say I see the error of my gray-headed OF ways in my initial post above! [] I mentioned a Midwest Tri-Squire in an R/C Scale thread.[][X(][&o]!!! YIKES!!!! Had been roaming around the threads and had visited the ''old timer'' spot and just forgot where I was..but wait....I'm building a model of a model that I once flew..so is this new model, the one I'm building now...a scale model of the model I once modeled? [8D]. Anyhow, my apologies to all!
Soft landing.
Joe
abufletcher....a, my friend...I can NOW say I see the error of my gray-headed OF ways in my initial post above! [
] I mentioned a Midwest Tri-Squire in an R/C Scale thread.[][X(][&o]!!! YIKES!!!! Had been roaming around the threads and had visited the ''old timer'' spot and just forgot where I was..but wait....I'm building a model of a model that I once flew..so is this new model, the one I'm building now...a scale model of the model I once modeled? [8D]. Anyhow, my apologies to all!Soft landing.
Joe
08-12-2009 | 12:04 AM
#21
Thread Starter
RE: Final word on silk and dope?
ORIGINAL: DAN REISS
Hi abufletcher, What's the address of your Dr1 site? Thanks, Dan.
Hi abufletcher, What's the address of your Dr1 site? Thanks, Dan.
It's just a thread right here on the Scale Forum:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_8127853/tm.htm
08-12-2009 | 05:52 AM
#22
RE: Final word on silk and dope?
ORIGINAL: Chip_Mull
abufletcher: I hope you're going by boat. When they catch you with the flammables aboard an aircraft you won't be able to afford batteries for your transmitter. Since 9/11 they don't fool around, either here or Japan.
abufletcher: I hope you're going by boat. When they catch you with the flammables aboard an aircraft you won't be able to afford batteries for your transmitter. Since 9/11 they don't fool around, either here or Japan.
let's hope he doesn't try something like this, or we will have at least ten new topics here as to what, why, and where to go to get out of jail
that will go on and on and on.seriously abu, i agree with Chip, please don't try anything silly OK?...........it people who pull stuff like this that gets items like dope and what not totally banned........don't ruin it for the rest of us
08-12-2009 | 06:16 AM
#23
Thread Starter
RE: Final word on silk and dope?
Does this seem worse than transporting (in checked-luggage) other oil-based products such as wood stains and PU? Sometimes living overseas is a royal hassle. I suppose I might consider shipping it by surface mail.
08-12-2009 | 08:17 AM
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RE: Final word on silk and dope?
Showtime100: No problem, my friend. It ended up giving us a good laugh without any damage done. And, I understand what you were trying to say.
Abufletcher: ground shipping sounds like the way to go. Don't ask me about the "grilling" I got when I tried to ship my grandson in Alabama some model glue (from Michigan) and the PO clerk heard me discussing models with another customer. I know the clerk and let's just say she told me they don't take shipping hobby items like that lightly...especially by aircraft. I'd think the aircraft companies would be the same way in today's world, unfortunate as it is. It would be a bit tough building those nice models of yours from behind vertical things called bars.
Soft landings.
Joe
without any damage done. And, I understand what you were trying to say.Abufletcher: ground shipping sounds like the way to go. Don't ask me about the "grilling" I got when I tried to ship my grandson in Alabama some model glue (from Michigan) and the PO clerk heard me discussing models with another customer. I know the clerk and let's just say she told me they don't take shipping hobby items like that lightly...especially by aircraft. I'd think the aircraft companies would be the same way in today's world, unfortunate as it is. It would be a bit tough building those nice models of yours from behind vertical things called bars.
Soft landings.
Joe
08-12-2009 | 08:25 AM
#25
Thread Starter
RE: Final word on silk and dope?
It's all a bit ridiculous since by far the largest volume of "overseas surface" mail today goes by plane. And I can pretty well guarantee that my couple of quarts of dope wouldn't be the most dangerous thing on the plane.
