expeditionx

My Feedback: (1)

Hello everyone,

I have been thinking about possibly starting a model aircraft company that specializes in FRP composites and the higher boutique of the line of aircraft. I see that within the past ten years, the market has really been overtaken it seems with cheap, mass production stuff that I cannot bring myself to call good craftsmanship. I feel that there is a place somewhere I can help fill this void. To be honest, I have not made up my mind yet. Some folks I have conversed with said it would be a big waste of time and money to take on something like a company that deals with making "toys". Personally, I have spent a good part of my life in the study of aerodynamics and propulsion systems. So, I don't really share the same thoughts as they do. What do you guys think? Would it be worth the time to have a home grown company that builds good quality airframes? Is there an interest in that kind of thing these days?

jester_s1

If you can compete with prices from the Chinese made ARF's, sure it would work well. But if you're talking about the high end, while there are obviously aeromodelers who will pay for high end equipment, that's an awfully small group of customers that you're going to be competing for. It would probably be better to partner with a designer like Ziroli to produce ARF's of his designs.

jake_027

My Feedback: (1)

I think the market dictates the type and quality of ARF's that we see today. H9 & Great Planes have been around a long time and I am confident that they have the ability and resources to make a higher quality ARF, however the price would increase significantly and as already mentioned, there would be a significantly smaller market willing to pay that price for quality. I am guessing that they crunched the numbers and the type and quality of ARFs they produce is where they maximize profits.

Starting a business is scary under the best situations. In manufacturing, the start up and fixed costs would be high and you would need a ton of expensive marketing just to get people excited enough about your product to throw their money down. At that point, these online forums will either make or break you.

As a hobby, building a higher quality aircraft sounds nice and feasible. As a business, it has to be about making money first and the pride and joy that you get from combining your hobby and business has to come second as the company can not grow without money.

To give you the feedback that you requested, I am satisfied with the quality (and prices) presently available. I am one of the guys that would not be willing to pay more for better quality.

If you decide to do it I wish you all the best luck!


Dave

bogbeagle

"within the past ten years, the market has really been overtaken it seems with cheap, mass production stuff that I cannot bring myself to call good craftsmanship."



That wouldn't be my assessment. I think that the market is full of cheap, mass-production stuff, which offers great value and quality. Still, there's always room for more good-quality equipment; if the price is right.

I don't buy the products, 'cos I like to roll my own ... but I do realise that much of the ARF equipment is, in many ways, much better than I can build.

KW_Counter

Anyone who responds referring to this equipment as "toys" has no knowledge
of our hobby and is not qualified to answer your questions.

The reason there are so many low priced ARF manufacturers is to
respond to the short lifespan of the majority of the plane flown.
I myself am still not to the point where I'll pay more than $200
for a plane. Closer to $100 is better.

There are several companies in the niche you are discussing.
Zirolli was mentioned and let's not forget Bob Violett.
If you look at all of the ads in the magazines you'll find more.
You won't have an open field but there is probably room for another.

Just because the product is made in the Pacific Rim does not mean it is inferior.
You do have to keep a close eye on your manufacturer; and be ready to
change manufacturers if necessary.

You need to do a lot of research before you decide.
You might even want to try to talk to some of your future competitors.
They may be willing to give some advice from their experience.

Good Luck,
KW_Counter

LesUyeda

"Would it be worth the time to have a home grown company that builds good quality airframes?"

An age old question. It was once said that "the way to make a small fortune in that effort was to start out with a very large fortune:-))))))))))))))

Les

Jetdesign

My Feedback: (8)

If you are into aerodynamics, propulsion, and composites, it sounds like you have a market in the F3A (pattern) world, and maybe with competition sail planes, possibly IMAC. Right now, there is a man in the far East that is doing the same - his company is BJ Craft. He is an aerodynamicist and making planes for the Pattern community. Painted composite ARF planes are flying off the shelves at $1800 for a kit; no one can keep them in stock. The 'high end' planes sell for $3000-$5000 for an ARF, $1600-$2000 for a 'kit' which needs to have formers glued in, wing tips/LE/TE attached and sanded, etc.

If you think you can design, build, and sell ARF planes for ~$2000 a piece, I think you can have a business.

jester_s1

But even becoming a major player in that market (the high end competitors) limits a business to a tiny fraction of an already minuscule hobby. Sure, if you design a model that wins a couple of major contests in F3A you'll have 2 or 3 dozen pilots beating down your door to get models from you, at least until next year when someone else's plane wins. IMAC is a bigger market, so winning at Nats and a couple of other big events may get you 200 new customers. That's of course assuming you can get a top pilot to fly your equipment through a sponsorship. So for a business model, are you talking about producing maybe 50 planes a year for the most hardcore pilots who'll pay $3000 a pop for them without power systems or electronics, or are you looking to build something a little better than the average big ARF to try and appeal to the mass market? As for the lower end, I think bobbeagle has it right. I wouldn't pay an extra $50 for an ARF with a slightly nicer covering job or that came out a few ounces lighter when I can tighten up covering myself and save weight with lighter components if I need to.

Rick W

My Feedback: (20)

Hi guy,

The problem with this is you'll spend a ton of money on equipment, research and labor to turn out a nice product. Someone comes along and splashes a mold from your product and undercuts you... happened to Byron several years ago, the're no longer in business.

Sorry to say but save your money and build for yourself..

Rick

saramos

Take a look at Extreme Flight RC. Sound like they are doing something very much like your idea. I've seen one of their planes in person and was very impressed with their design, buiding incredibly light and strong airframes. They've also managed to get their prices down to a marketable level too.

http://www.extremeflightrc.com/html/60Edge.html

Scott

smithcreek

My Feedback: (25)

Are there other companies doing this already? Lots of fiberglass and carbon fibler options out there, but FRP? You don't mention what segment of the market you are looking at. That would make a big difference. As someone mentioned, in competition you would absolutely have to have wins under your belt, what advantage would FRP have in that segment? Lighter? Stiffer? In scale modeling there are companies already like Yellow Aircraft making fiberglass versions of many popular models. What advantage would FRP have there? Crash/damage resistance? Weight? Either of those would be big selling points if it was true. What is the benefit of FRP over what's out there already?

iron eagel

Starting a business, looking at what realistically is a small market audience, you have to ask yourself a few questions:
Is what you plan to sell competitive in price enough to draw some away from the current ARF market.
Is the quality and performance going to be worth the extra cost to at least a third of the buyers?
And do you have the resources to carry production and operations cost through the start up period until you have established a name?
Will you products be enticing and good enough for you to garner a market share to support the operation?


And I say this as someone who can build a real good airplane, and doubt anybody be willing to buy one for the price I would ask. For example I'll use the little hybrid delta/flying wing I am testing, would somebody pay the $300 I would want for the plane with servos linkage and motor included, but no RX, battery or ESC? I would still be losing money at that price, if you figure the time it took to build and the cost of materials, the materials alone with the 90 oz servos and motor wood and paint was well over $200 which means I would making about a hundred bucks on months of labor.

But if you think that you have a real good product that would get peoples attention go for it. And best of luck!

acdii

A friend of mine came up with a really nice 1/4 scale P-51, made 100% out of aluminum. It is light weight, flies on a 50CC gas engine, nimble and flies like a trainer.  He built it to scale, even uses real rivets, the only thing he doesnt have on it are retracts, only because of the cost.  He has a mid section wing built up for a 1/5th scale P-51, again 100% aluminum with full retracts, and the retracts alone are roughly $2k. 

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

As good as the Aeroworks planes are I often wonder how they stay in business with there pricing. A good product manufactured in China but priced high? A company to take a good look at. Joe brought up a great point by mentioning the type of planes you wish to build? Composite pattern planes is a very specialized area but the planes are all at the high end of design and cost. IMAC planes not so much but it is another arfea to look at. For the record, I call my planes TOYS and I go out and play with them. When I competed in shooting events and spent my life hunting birds I called my guns TOYs too. I did a lot of IMAA events with my scale TOY planes. I look at toys as something I play with. I don't get upset when a non modeler uses the term, they don't have a clue, I just don't care what you call them.

jester_s1

This has gotten me thinking- I wonder how many of our planes are built by companies that do nothing but build RC planes? I could see a company like Hangar 9 having a dedicated factory for their big product line, but some of the lower volume outfits must outsource at least some of their stuff to factories that do work for all kinds of industries. Vacuum forming and molding, laser cutting, metal forming, and printing are just a few specialties that likely work on all kinds of projects including RC. So maybe the OP should consider starting a composites company and include an RC brand as part of what he does, but not limit himself to just that business.

iron eagel

Good idea!