Jazzing up the trainer
12-25-2004, 07:43 PM
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Jazzing up the trainer
After about 6 months of gathering dust I pulled out the old trainer. It served its purpose well and despite tearing out the firewall several times, a cartwheel or two, etc. its still in pretty good shape. Despite being beatup it still flies well.
Now I want to play around with it to learn some building skills. First I want to change it to a tail dragger, remonokote it using transparent in the wings and control surfaces, use a kit to build a cowl for it, fix up old dings, shorten up the wings and put new control surfaces on it using monokote hinges. It will be a fair bit of work, but I am wanting a cheap project that will give me some experince with some new stuff.
I am wanting to make it a little more acrobatic by putting slightly larger control surfaces on it and shortening the wing. Currently it has a wingspan of 62 inches, if I chop it off at the first rib it will have a wingspan of 54 inches. I will chop it off straight and will lose the angled wingtips.
My question is, will it be ok to chop this much of the wing off? What else could I do to give it a facelift and make it a little more acrobatic while keeping some of its trainer type characteristics? Also, I am not sure how much bigger the control surfaces can/need to be. I dont want a lot, but would at least like to be able to do inverted loops, easily hold inverted flight, hammerheads, etc.
Here are some pics of the old reliable bird.
Now I want to play around with it to learn some building skills. First I want to change it to a tail dragger, remonokote it using transparent in the wings and control surfaces, use a kit to build a cowl for it, fix up old dings, shorten up the wings and put new control surfaces on it using monokote hinges. It will be a fair bit of work, but I am wanting a cheap project that will give me some experince with some new stuff.
I am wanting to make it a little more acrobatic by putting slightly larger control surfaces on it and shortening the wing. Currently it has a wingspan of 62 inches, if I chop it off at the first rib it will have a wingspan of 54 inches. I will chop it off straight and will lose the angled wingtips.
My question is, will it be ok to chop this much of the wing off? What else could I do to give it a facelift and make it a little more acrobatic while keeping some of its trainer type characteristics? Also, I am not sure how much bigger the control surfaces can/need to be. I dont want a lot, but would at least like to be able to do inverted loops, easily hold inverted flight, hammerheads, etc.
Here are some pics of the old reliable bird.
12-25-2004, 10:44 PM
#2
RE: Jazzing up the trainer
The single most dramatic change thats relatively simple to give it an amazing elusive patternlike performance is to cut the wing in the middle and drop the tips below flat giving the aircraft anhedral of a few inchs. I done some 'Dumbos' for myself and others. Looks ridiculous until you fly it and stick it to the hecklers. Ed Moorman on these forums has also done a lot along this line and is a belever also. So if you,ve the courage to face nay sayers give it a shot, you won,t be sorry.
My first experiance with this was when a student showed up with a poorly assembled Aircore trainer that had inavertantly been assembled with the dihedral upside down. Man what a great aerobatic trainer that was and is. Even with the relatively flat bottomed wing.
John
My first experiance with this was when a student showed up with a poorly assembled Aircore trainer that had inavertantly been assembled with the dihedral upside down. Man what a great aerobatic trainer that was and is. Even with the relatively flat bottomed wing.
John
12-25-2004, 11:30 PM
#3
RE: Jazzing up the trainer
I have a semi-forgotten about Xtra Easy 2 that I've been thinking about along the same lines.
Why not design a new wing with a simple airfoil & spar construction and build it up from scratch. It shouldn't cost too much for materials. I'm thinking about finding a semi symetrical airfoil and use the same dimensions as the XE2 with same wingtip design. I'll add larger ailerons that don't go to the wingtips. I'll probably make my own torque rods and convert over to wing bolts instead of rubber bands...and no dihedral.
Why not design a new wing with a simple airfoil & spar construction and build it up from scratch. It shouldn't cost too much for materials. I'm thinking about finding a semi symetrical airfoil and use the same dimensions as the XE2 with same wingtip design. I'll add larger ailerons that don't go to the wingtips. I'll probably make my own torque rods and convert over to wing bolts instead of rubber bands...and no dihedral.
12-26-2004, 10:28 PM
#4
RE: Jazzing up the trainer
If you want to buy new parts, OK, but if you want to experiment and use your old plane, here are a few things you can do:
1. Cut off 1 or 2 ribs.
2. Take out dihedral-this takes a lot of work for a beginner, but you get the same effect by leavng the ends of the wing flat and adding downward end plates made from lite ply. Hand them down about an inch. This will effectively cut the dihedral.
3. To try bigger control surfaces, get some poster board, flod some larger ones and tape them on your controls. Add an inch to each control. If you don't like it, you can remove the tape and go back to the old controls.
4. Add a second aileron servo. Widen the hole in the middle of the wing and put 2 in side-by-side.
5. When you put the wing on, put 2 popsicle sticks under the trailing edge of the wing. This reduces the incidence and keeps the plane from climbing at full power.
6. Move the CG back to 1/3rd span. This will make the plane more lively.
7. Put in a .46. You can use the plane for breaking in new mid-size engines and enjoy it while you are "working," so to speak.
1. Cut off 1 or 2 ribs.
2. Take out dihedral-this takes a lot of work for a beginner, but you get the same effect by leavng the ends of the wing flat and adding downward end plates made from lite ply. Hand them down about an inch. This will effectively cut the dihedral.
3. To try bigger control surfaces, get some poster board, flod some larger ones and tape them on your controls. Add an inch to each control. If you don't like it, you can remove the tape and go back to the old controls.
4. Add a second aileron servo. Widen the hole in the middle of the wing and put 2 in side-by-side.
5. When you put the wing on, put 2 popsicle sticks under the trailing edge of the wing. This reduces the incidence and keeps the plane from climbing at full power.
6. Move the CG back to 1/3rd span. This will make the plane more lively.
7. Put in a .46. You can use the plane for breaking in new mid-size engines and enjoy it while you are "working," so to speak.
12-27-2004, 12:02 AM
#5
RE: Jazzing up the trainer
Ed,
Those are good ideas. I think the heavy cardboard aileron addition is one I'll try the next time I drag mine out to the field.
My cg is already way aft as I took the flywheel weights off of the Evolution training system engine...and put on an APC 2 bladed prop. It takes off in about 6 feet now with full elevator. I need to check the cg some day.
You can also try a shim under the front engine mount screws/bolts for more positive thrust. My trainer had a ton of down thrust built in.
Like you said, trainers are good test aircraft for engines. I was thinking of using mine to test new wings too.
Those are good ideas. I think the heavy cardboard aileron addition is one I'll try the next time I drag mine out to the field.
My cg is already way aft as I took the flywheel weights off of the Evolution training system engine...and put on an APC 2 bladed prop. It takes off in about 6 feet now with full elevator. I need to check the cg some day.
You can also try a shim under the front engine mount screws/bolts for more positive thrust. My trainer had a ton of down thrust built in.
Like you said, trainers are good test aircraft for engines. I was thinking of using mine to test new wings too.
12-27-2004, 12:29 AM
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RE: Jazzing up the trainer
The single most effective modification you can do to make the airplane more aerobatic is moving the cg aft. Move it a little at a time then fly it. Repeat until you get it to respond like you want it. With no other modification you will have a spritely performer. You may find that as the cg approaches the neutral point, the existing control surfaces are large enough to do all but the most extreme maneuvers. But increasing the chord of the elevators and the rudder is such a simple modification you may want to do it anyway. You will be amazed at the things you can do with no other modifications.
The other mods mentioned pertain to particular maneuvers, mostly inverted flight, and knife-edge. To the degree that dihedral makes an airplane laterally stable when upright it becomes laterally unstable when flying inverted. This doesn’t mean that inverted flight isn’t possible, just that it requires quicker thumbs. The small amount of dihedral on your airplane shouldn’t require much to fly inverted as is.
Changing to a symmetrical airfoil is also only to facilitate inverted flight. The only advantage is that the pitch attitude inverted is closer to the pitch attitude when upright. Other than this pitch attitude thing, a symmetrical airfoil doesn’t offer any other aerobatic advantage.
Knife-edge flight is easier when there is little or no roll introduced with rudder deflection. This is where a little wing droop (anhedral) can be beneficial. You only want enough to eliminate roll coupling. However, if this is carried too far, the airplane will have negative lateral stability in normal flight, and it will be like flying an airplane with dihedral upside down. (good exercise for the thumbs)
I wouldn’t recommend clipping the wings. If you clip the wings, the roll rate will increase a bit due to the lower inertia of the shorter wing, but every other performance parameter will suffer due to the higher wing loading. Assuming that you will be using the same engine, the two major factors affecting aerobatic performance are cg position, and wing loading.
Changing the wing incidence will only effect the position of elevator trim. It won't effect the plane's response to anything else.
My suggestion would be make the cosmetic modifications including changing to a tail dragger, keep the wing as is, eliminate as much weight as you practically can, and move the cg rearward. You will have an aerobatic trainer limited only by your skill.
The other mods mentioned pertain to particular maneuvers, mostly inverted flight, and knife-edge. To the degree that dihedral makes an airplane laterally stable when upright it becomes laterally unstable when flying inverted. This doesn’t mean that inverted flight isn’t possible, just that it requires quicker thumbs. The small amount of dihedral on your airplane shouldn’t require much to fly inverted as is.
Changing to a symmetrical airfoil is also only to facilitate inverted flight. The only advantage is that the pitch attitude inverted is closer to the pitch attitude when upright. Other than this pitch attitude thing, a symmetrical airfoil doesn’t offer any other aerobatic advantage.
Knife-edge flight is easier when there is little or no roll introduced with rudder deflection. This is where a little wing droop (anhedral) can be beneficial. You only want enough to eliminate roll coupling. However, if this is carried too far, the airplane will have negative lateral stability in normal flight, and it will be like flying an airplane with dihedral upside down. (good exercise for the thumbs)
I wouldn’t recommend clipping the wings. If you clip the wings, the roll rate will increase a bit due to the lower inertia of the shorter wing, but every other performance parameter will suffer due to the higher wing loading. Assuming that you will be using the same engine, the two major factors affecting aerobatic performance are cg position, and wing loading.
Changing the wing incidence will only effect the position of elevator trim. It won't effect the plane's response to anything else.
My suggestion would be make the cosmetic modifications including changing to a tail dragger, keep the wing as is, eliminate as much weight as you practically can, and move the cg rearward. You will have an aerobatic trainer limited only by your skill.
12-27-2004, 07:41 AM
#7
RE: Jazzing up the trainer
Go ahead and clip the wing, BUT! After you remove the tip, reinforce the end with a new wing tip. It doesn't have to be anything fancy, but shoot for at least 1/4" thick (Balsa).
If you only have the rib on the outboard side, when you cover it, as the covering shrinks it will pull that thin ib in toward the covering and will Bow the wingtip
If you only have the rib on the outboard side, when you cover it, as the covering shrinks it will pull that thin ib in toward the covering and will Bow the wingtip
12-27-2004, 08:56 AM
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RE: Jazzing up the trainer
Ed, I am not EXACTLY sure what you mean by this
¨2. Take out dihedral-this takes a lot of work for a beginner, but you get the same effect by leavng the ends of the wing flat and adding downward end plates made from lite ply. Hand them down about an inch. This will effectively cut the dihedral.¨
DO you have a pic or drawing?
¨2. Take out dihedral-this takes a lot of work for a beginner, but you get the same effect by leavng the ends of the wing flat and adding downward end plates made from lite ply. Hand them down about an inch. This will effectively cut the dihedral.¨
DO you have a pic or drawing?
12-27-2004, 09:02 AM
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RE: Jazzing up the trainer
As far as inverted flight, I have no problems keeping the plane inverted. It is a little touchy and wants to roll over but I can keep it inverted. The problem is that its hard to keep altitude when inverted. I have to use full elevator and enter inverted flight while gaining altitude. To exit inverted flight I have to roll over almost in a dive, I cant gain altitude and roll over.
I like to do really low inverted passes with some planes I even touch the tail (remember I fly in Argentina... no AMA), so I need plenty of control in the elevator
I like to do really low inverted passes with some planes I even touch the tail (remember I fly in Argentina... no AMA), so I need plenty of control in the elevator
12-27-2004, 06:06 PM
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RE: Jazzing up the trainer
I was sure as I went along in the project I would have some questions so here are some of the first.
First of all this plane is a Phoenix models canary and was covered in contact paper. That should be a RC crime. Everywhere there was a seam the glue is very sticky and wont come off. Whats the best way to get it off?
Second, I plan on using transparent monokote in the open bays of the wings. I also would like to use it in a few places on the fuselage. The bottom already has some places cut out and I want to cut a few more holes in the sides. Below is a picture. Can I cut some of the sides out without losing a lot of strength in the fuselage?
First of all this plane is a Phoenix models canary and was covered in contact paper. That should be a RC crime. Everywhere there was a seam the glue is very sticky and wont come off. Whats the best way to get it off?
Second, I plan on using transparent monokote in the open bays of the wings. I also would like to use it in a few places on the fuselage. The bottom already has some places cut out and I want to cut a few more holes in the sides. Below is a picture. Can I cut some of the sides out without losing a lot of strength in the fuselage?
12-28-2004, 09:41 AM
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RE: Jazzing up the trainer
If you cut the sides out almost to the cross braces like the bottom sheeting you will loose a lot of strength. The best approach would be to cut a round hole in each bay, sized so as to leave about one half inch or more at the closest edges. If you want a little more squared look to the holes, at least leave a very generous radius in each corner. The result should be a lighter fuselage, which will help in keeping the overall weight down.
Looking at the wing pictures, shortening the wing should be an easy modification. I would cut the tips off at the first inboard rib. Cut out the adjacent bay and glue the tips back in place at the second rib from the tip as seen in the picture. This in effect just removes one bay. A simple lap splice of the spar and leading edge at that point should carry the relatively light load that near the tip. Since the wing is uncovered at this point, removing the dihedral would be no more complicated than sawing the wing in two at the center and gluing it back flat with appropriate reinforcement (which could be fiberglass tape epoxied in place).
A more forward cg will help in keeping the nose up in inverted flight, however at this point, new, larger elevators would be so simple to make I would definitely go that way.
Make a concerted effort to keep the weight down as you build back. One way is to use a mini servo on the throttle where a lot of force isn’t required. Rather than using two servos on the ailerons, as has been suggested, stay with a single servo. If you think you need more muscle on the ailerons, use a little larger servo, which will still weight less than two standard ones. Eliminating the nose wheel is a plus. Weight saved will translate directly into increased performance.
Since you will be replacing the rudder with a larger one, I would lower the height of the vertical fin. Keep about the same vertical tail area, but now more of it will be rudder, and the lower height will reduce coupling in knife-edge flight.
This is an interesting project. Keep us posted.
Looking at the wing pictures, shortening the wing should be an easy modification. I would cut the tips off at the first inboard rib. Cut out the adjacent bay and glue the tips back in place at the second rib from the tip as seen in the picture. This in effect just removes one bay. A simple lap splice of the spar and leading edge at that point should carry the relatively light load that near the tip. Since the wing is uncovered at this point, removing the dihedral would be no more complicated than sawing the wing in two at the center and gluing it back flat with appropriate reinforcement (which could be fiberglass tape epoxied in place).
A more forward cg will help in keeping the nose up in inverted flight, however at this point, new, larger elevators would be so simple to make I would definitely go that way.
Make a concerted effort to keep the weight down as you build back. One way is to use a mini servo on the throttle where a lot of force isn’t required. Rather than using two servos on the ailerons, as has been suggested, stay with a single servo. If you think you need more muscle on the ailerons, use a little larger servo, which will still weight less than two standard ones. Eliminating the nose wheel is a plus. Weight saved will translate directly into increased performance.
Since you will be replacing the rudder with a larger one, I would lower the height of the vertical fin. Keep about the same vertical tail area, but now more of it will be rudder, and the lower height will reduce coupling in knife-edge flight.
This is an interesting project. Keep us posted.
12-28-2004, 10:20 PM
#12
RE: Jazzing up the trainer
You can also cut weight by getting foam wheels from either D. Brown or Dubro. I like the Dubro ones best. If you have a cutoff wheel on a Dremel, cut off the excess axles that stick out past the wheel collars. I did that and was surprised how much the three pieces of steel weighed from my trainer. Some people put a lot of hardware on their landing gears. I use a piece of fuel tubing behind the wheels in some cases.
LouW has good advice about throttle servos. You can get a mini Hitec for under $20 and it is feather light compared to 'regular' servos.
LouW has good advice about throttle servos. You can get a mini Hitec for under $20 and it is feather light compared to 'regular' servos.
12-29-2004, 10:55 PM
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RE: Jazzing up the trainer
Two days end to the fix up and am super happy with the results. It has been a blast.
I finally got all the ARF contact paper covering glue off, what a hassle.
For the wing I just clipped out the second bay and spliced back the last bay and wing tip (as suggested here). Super easy.
Next I changed out the vertical and horizontal stabilizers. I cut the vertical one shorter and added some on to the front (purely for looks). I didnt like the looks of the old one, it was way to tall and skinny. For the horizontal stabilizer I was going to modify the one in place but noticed that it was hardly glued in, so I took it out completely and replaced it with the stabilizer of another plane that had been crashed. It was a great fit. As you can see in the pics I also had to shorten the tail in order to have an elevator that I could attach the tailwheel to.
I finally got all the ARF contact paper covering glue off, what a hassle.
For the wing I just clipped out the second bay and spliced back the last bay and wing tip (as suggested here). Super easy.
Next I changed out the vertical and horizontal stabilizers. I cut the vertical one shorter and added some on to the front (purely for looks). I didnt like the looks of the old one, it was way to tall and skinny. For the horizontal stabilizer I was going to modify the one in place but noticed that it was hardly glued in, so I took it out completely and replaced it with the stabilizer of another plane that had been crashed. It was a great fit. As you can see in the pics I also had to shorten the tail in order to have an elevator that I could attach the tailwheel to.
12-29-2004, 11:02 PM
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RE: Jazzing up the trainer
The next think I wanted to do was to change the boxy look the plane had. Since I plan on make a cowl for it I thought that the front of the plane could use some help.
So using telgopor and 1mm balsa sheeting I formed a more rounded front end and windshield area. It looks really sharp.
I am also working on a turtledeck as well and should have it done by tomorrow. Also for tomorrow I want to start on some of the cutoouts in the fuselage where I plan on putting transparent yellow monokote.
So using telgopor and 1mm balsa sheeting I formed a more rounded front end and windshield area. It looks really sharp.
I am also working on a turtledeck as well and should have it done by tomorrow. Also for tomorrow I want to start on some of the cutoouts in the fuselage where I plan on putting transparent yellow monokote.
12-30-2004, 09:07 AM
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RE: Jazzing up the trainer
By shortening the tail, you can now extend the rudder downward, which will help even more in reducing coupling in knife-edge flight. I believe that the result of all this work will be a very nice aerobatic airplane. There is no inherent aerobatic limitation to the high wing configuration. The little craft in my avitar is a purposefully designed high wing aerobat that flies exceptionally well with no bad habits. I commend you for undertaking this project.
12-30-2004, 10:42 PM
#16
RE: Jazzing up the trainer
Nice job, Gringo. Good pics of your progress. Nothing like having fun and changing things.
I was given a Sig Somethin Extra that had crushed a wing tip and some minor fuselage damage. However, it had been crashed a few times before this. I cut off the nose and replaced the firewall, cheeks, and half of the fuselage belly. I replaced the ply for the main gear and converted it to nylon bolts. The top hatch is rounded almost to the engine, but I made a flat cover that goes from canopy to firewall so that I can get to all of the radio gear and up to the fuel tank. I had a great time modifying it.
You will enjoy flying your plane.
I was given a Sig Somethin Extra that had crushed a wing tip and some minor fuselage damage. However, it had been crashed a few times before this. I cut off the nose and replaced the firewall, cheeks, and half of the fuselage belly. I replaced the ply for the main gear and converted it to nylon bolts. The top hatch is rounded almost to the engine, but I made a flat cover that goes from canopy to firewall so that I can get to all of the radio gear and up to the fuel tank. I had a great time modifying it.
You will enjoy flying your plane.
12-31-2004, 08:59 AM
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RE: Jazzing up the trainer
The turtle deck is finished minus a little bit of sanding and some work around the vertical stab. The turtle deck is made of telgopor sheeted in 1mm balsa. Wow what a lot of sanding to take a block of styro and turn it into a turtledeck.
I also have the elevator and rudder built. Both are about 1 1/2 times the size of the originals.
So far it doesnt even look like the same plane.
Whie I was taking these pics my son who is almost 2 wanted me to take his picture with the plane so he was standing by the plane and I told him to sit down. his first reaction was to turn around and sit right on top of the airplane. Luckily I was close and was able to direct him to sit on the ground next to the plane. WHEW[X(] close call.
I also have the elevator and rudder built. Both are about 1 1/2 times the size of the originals.
So far it doesnt even look like the same plane.
Whie I was taking these pics my son who is almost 2 wanted me to take his picture with the plane so he was standing by the plane and I told him to sit down. his first reaction was to turn around and sit right on top of the airplane. Luckily I was close and was able to direct him to sit on the ground next to the plane. WHEW[X(] close call.
01-04-2005, 01:15 PM
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RE: Jazzing up the trainer
Got a little delayed on the project but its back in full swing.
I have now all but finished the turtledeck. The tail dragger conversion is now done with gear installed. I also filled in all the old holes on the firewall and have remounted the engine and carved a little off the firewall so the exhaust will exit to the bottom of the plane. Also, a few spots were cut out on the sides of the fuselage in order to use the transparent there.
The new ailerons where a challenge bc the trailing edge of the wing is really thick. So I had to improvise the barn door style aileron I planned to use. As you can see in the pic it is thicker towards the TE of the wing and narrows down towards the TE of the aileron. It follows the airfoil well.
Other than making the cowl all I have is small stuff like sanding, filling, and it will be ready to cover.
I have now all but finished the turtledeck. The tail dragger conversion is now done with gear installed. I also filled in all the old holes on the firewall and have remounted the engine and carved a little off the firewall so the exhaust will exit to the bottom of the plane. Also, a few spots were cut out on the sides of the fuselage in order to use the transparent there.
The new ailerons where a challenge bc the trailing edge of the wing is really thick. So I had to improvise the barn door style aileron I planned to use. As you can see in the pic it is thicker towards the TE of the wing and narrows down towards the TE of the aileron. It follows the airfoil well.
Other than making the cowl all I have is small stuff like sanding, filling, and it will be ready to cover.
01-31-2005, 07:14 PM
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RE: Jazzing up the trainer
Finally got the trainer ¨jazzed up¨
In total the changes made were; new monokote, turtledeck added, horizontal and vertical stab modified (both mainly for looks or previous damage), all control surfaces new and about double the size of the original ones, converted to tail dragger, engine now mounted so that the muffler exists the bottom of the plane, wings clipped one bay, and rudder servo placed in the tail.
Things that make the biggest results,
1. new monokote
2. turtledeck
3. change to taildragger
4. muffler exists out the bottom of the plane. Now I only have to clean the bottom of the plane. Wings and rubber bands dont get a drop of oil on them.
Things that should have been left alone
1. The clipped wing does help roll rate, but it sure is a little jumpy in wind, also it needs careful throttle managment bc it likes to go a lot faster now (LouW you were right)
2. The big rudder is a little much. With the diehdral in the wings, the oversized ruddder can get you in trouble. Including on takeoffs when I am steering on the ground the plane will drop a wing.
Overall, plane flies well and looks fantastic! It was a fun project. For just a few dollars in wood and other supplies I have a great new plane and learned a bunch in the process. Here are the pics, be sure to compare it to the before pics above.
In total the changes made were; new monokote, turtledeck added, horizontal and vertical stab modified (both mainly for looks or previous damage), all control surfaces new and about double the size of the original ones, converted to tail dragger, engine now mounted so that the muffler exists the bottom of the plane, wings clipped one bay, and rudder servo placed in the tail.
Things that make the biggest results,
1. new monokote
2. turtledeck
3. change to taildragger
4. muffler exists out the bottom of the plane. Now I only have to clean the bottom of the plane. Wings and rubber bands dont get a drop of oil on them.
Things that should have been left alone
1. The clipped wing does help roll rate, but it sure is a little jumpy in wind, also it needs careful throttle managment bc it likes to go a lot faster now (LouW you were right)
2. The big rudder is a little much. With the diehdral in the wings, the oversized ruddder can get you in trouble. Including on takeoffs when I am steering on the ground the plane will drop a wing.
Overall, plane flies well and looks fantastic! It was a fun project. For just a few dollars in wood and other supplies I have a great new plane and learned a bunch in the process. Here are the pics, be sure to compare it to the before pics above.
