gow589

My Feedback: (1)

I love ARF's ARC's or already built airplanes for the fact I can devote more time to scale building projects. I can fly while I build a better airplane!

I don't think there is a shortage of people building kits, you just don't see it as much because there are so many more people out there flying, and they are doing so because of ARF's. I hate to see people start out with ARF's but the dihards eventually build something.

Jim_McIntyre

Thanks for the heads up, I'll check them out.

As for claims that kits are still abundant, where? Certainly not in any of my local LHS. Very few being advertised either.

Marutaka/Royal, Byron, the list is long.... and now {sob} I hear Flair may be gone.[sm=frown.gif]

LSP972

My Feedback: (13)

redfox,

Not sure what you consider "great"... but I've built three Great Planes kits in the past four years, and all three had marginal wood. Yes, the engineering is good, parts fit is generally good, plans and instructions very good. But the wood was pretty bad. I'm talking heavy, dense, and in the case of the PT-20 and Contender, HAIRY. I mean, like a fuzzy surface texture on some pieces that just would not sand off. It was kind of bizarre.

The post above regarding the bid wars on wood might account for that... except, I just finished a Sig Kougar, ordered direct from Sig and purchased new last July, that had near-perfect wood; light, clear-grained, and a joy to work with.

And I agree with Jim; kits are slowly but surely disappearing. There are three very good (as in, well-stocked) hobby shops within a hundred-mile radius of me. Not long ago, I was on the road for business nad hit all three in the same day. There were nine kits, total, between the three shops; five in one, three in another, and one in the third. Now, that doesn't count Guillows strip-wood small kits or those junky park flyers; most of which are slabs of thin foam, anyway.

I remember the wonderful, dizzying array of available wood kits when I began the hobby in 1986. Back then, Goldberg reigned as the king of easy-to-build kits that came with excellent hardware and built into great flyers. I have the Eagle, original Sky Tiger, Anniversary Cub, Chipmunk, and Ulimate bipe under my belt. Then the wood quality began to decline, big-time. I haven't looked at one since Lanier acquired them.

Anyway, there were tons of kits out there. Half of the B&W section in the Tower catalog was kits. Check it out today; maybe ten pages, if that, of kits? The reason is simple; people don't have (or won't make) the time to build these days, and the manufactures are going to supply what sells. It is simple economics. ARFs are allowing these folks to stay in the air.

While I bemoan the decline of kit availability, at least the hobby is still alive and healthy. That's important.

gow589

My Feedback: (1)

Aircraft such as Ziroli, and Balsa Usa, Top Flight, etc. have taken off. You may not see some of these at the local field but they still are very popular if not more so at meets everywhere. Just look at companies such as Robart and see how many gear they produce for kits. The accessories for that kind of stuff is everywhere.

As far As Royal/Marutaka, they were never very good. Better kits such as the well engineered Top Flight kits (even if they have poor wood are far better engineered) are much more common. I am building my second Royal airplane right now. When I built the royal Stearman it had you glue 9 blocks of wood to the main structure, then glue the fire wall on. The next step said "Sand to shape". My first thought was "Oh, I have missed a step, I am missing directions! After looking over it for some time I realized, take these 9 blocks of wood and turn it into an airplane! There is a reason some specific kits are no longer popular. At one time, that's all there was.

CCRC1

My Feedback: (13)

Sorry, no duplicate kits yet.
It has taken me quite a while to amass my empire of balsa.
By the way I will second the thumbs up on the Skyshark Kits. Oustanding quality kits. I have been looking real hard at their Dauntless.

CCRC1

My Feedback: (13)

If thats true how come every single Royal/Maratuka kit is selling for $250.00+ on E-Bay? Some have starting bids over $400.00 and people are buying them right up.

I have build two Royal kits, a Zero and a Stearman. I will agree that they are not cookie cutter kits that go together like jig saw puzzles, but this is where the master builders are separated from the pack!

gow589

My Feedback: (1)

Because you can't get that sort of thing anymore, it's the end of them. Doesn't mean they are great kits, or well engineered kits. I enjoy building them but it doesn't make them great kits. Master builders build beter stuff from scratch or plans.

Rcpilot

My Feedback: (78)

I do it all. I ain't proud.

I've got ARFs. I've built a bunch of kits. And I've bashed a bunch of kits. I've just recently started doing my own designs and started scratch building from plans. I'm scratch building a plane from my head right now.

I really do love to build kits. I'm just starting to scratch build, but I'm short on power tools and it makes it difficult. Not to worry--I've got plenty of powertools on my wish list at various tool-supply stores and I buy them when I can. I'm accummulaiting the power tools slowly.

Building kits is my favorite.

I like the ease of an ARF--because I can slap it together in a weekend and go fly it next Teusday or whatever. If I smack it--no big deal. I just gut it at the field and toss it in the dumpster. Take the engine and radio home and put it in another ARF. Fly that one next weekend. Maybe it lasts 2 or 3 years---maybe it lasts 3 seconds. Who cares--I don't have any emotional attatchment to ARFs.

Now--you happen to be standing there when I smack a kit I spent 14 months building--and you might see a tear run down my cheek. I'm not too proud to admit that I love my kits and I'm always saddened when one of them goes in.

I haven't finished a scratch project yet--but I can tell ya--I'm emotionally attatched to them---even while they are still on the building board. If you happen to catch me smacking one of them for the first time---it's gonna look like Fred Sanford calling out for Elizabeth and grabbin' his chest. ""I'M COMIN' ELIZABETH---I'M COMIN'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"" OH GAWD, I'M COMIN' ELIZABETH!!!"

But, what the heck--they're just toys--afterall. It's still cheaper than a bass boat, an off-road 4-wheeler, or a safari trip to africa to "hunt" a supposed "wild" animal on a preserve for $20,000 a pop.

Airplanes are much more satisfying too--at least to me.

Jim_McIntyre

chuckle....

You get out of it what you put into it. If you have a habit of "smacking 'em" then perhaps ARFs should be more your thing. For me, when I fly something I made from a pile of wood and fabric, I can't describe how much I get out of it. When I fly an ARF, it's just another flight, great for skill building but not much of a thrill, even when I'm pushing my limits, the risk factor is just not there and and thrill tends to fly formation with risk....[8D]

BTW, I like Marutaka kits, I think they are well designed great flying aircraft. A little carving and sanding never hurt anyone, I like Pica kits for the same reasons.[8D]

And yes, Goldberg was king at one time, I still have an Ultimate, a Chipmunk and my wife's Eagle 2 and a Cub and ....

CCRC1

My Feedback: (13)

Ditto

blikseme300

My Feedback: (118)

If ARF's are "assembled", not built, then so are kits "assembled" also. You are just skipping steps 1 - 90. (Give me a moment to get my flame-proof suit on.)

Building from scratch is still king. If you did the plans/design yourself then you are elite.

From my observations the worst part of most planes are the installation of radio gear and hinges. Regardless if they are ARF or kit.

Unfortunately the cost/time ratio favours ARF's. I love to build, but time constraints limit my choices. I do about 4 ARF's during the same period that it takes me to complete a kit. The satisfaction from flying your own build is priceless. Kit & plans building will never go away. Unfortunately the kit choices available are shrinking. Even the kit choices that remain are mostly junk, IMHO. You are better off building from plans. There are exceptions, such as Carden Aircraft.

Safe Flying!

Kaos Rulz

When a kit tells you to "Cut and shape to fit" or "Trim as desired to provide proper fit" or "Position for engine to be used", your building.

As a scratch builder, kit builder and ARF owner (ouch on the ARF), I can attest to the fact that ARF's are merely assemling assemblies. The two building techniques most used when assmbling ARF's is to make sure the wing and tail feathers are straight and properly aligned. (and many ARF's have that covered for you as well).

Kits require building and ARF's requre assembling.

I'm going now cause I'm tired of saying "assembly" and it's derivatives.

Jim_McIntyre

a few hours of "assembly":


... many more hours of "assembly";


... still more "assembly":



... some cockpit "assembly":


Man, I'm glad I'm only "assembling", I wouldn;t want to have to build this.

I scratch, plans and kit build, I classify them all as building.
The new laser cut kits take some of the fabricating out of the mix but, if you want to build scale, even a kit, you'll likely still be fabricating parts, and that's what I call building.

piper_chuck

My Feedback: (12)

Me too, I've got 4 of them stashed away for a rainy day.

Kaos Rulz

Very nice build Jim!!! Did you do the stitching in the leather coat as well? That's what I call intricate building. Looks real.

EF

Jim that DR1 is a work of art!
I have the kit for the FLAIR DR 1 waitting and having seen the cockpit you made I hope I will be able to at least come close!
I've built a little 1/72 just to see what it would look like with the colors I chose.

I enjoy scratch building from plans but it takes very long and so I found "builder's kits" a good compromise.
I have just finished the 1/4 scale Aeronca Champ from the Precedent (US-Hobby Lobby) kit - now that was fun. About one sheet of word instructions more or less along the lines of "hey there, build it straight and fly it carefully" with lots of wood cutting I did myself and that Aeronca was a real love affair to build. Flying such a model is a totally different experience from flying the VMAR ESCAPE I put together just as a practice plane, in 10 hours or so.
Flying the ARF ESCAPE is good solid flying for fun and practice, but flying a model such as the Aeronca is a totally different experience.

Jim_McIntyre

Thanks, yes. Finding materials was arduous, most looked out of scale after stitching, I just couldn't find anything thin or supple enough. I finally found something close and scraped the backing away.

Kaos Rulz

Outstanding! I tip my hat to you for that level of realism.

50+AirYears

If I were the type to condemn anything new on the basis of one sample, I would never had bought any of the early Cox plastic controline planes I've enjoyed over the years. My first plastic RTF was an old Wen-Mac 049 job that ran one time after having it over 5 years and wearing out the pull starter with a baloon tank pressure feeding it Fox Blast (About 40% nitro?). If I had judged my first ARF R/C job that way (Royal 40L), I never would have had the fun of flying my GP Modern Stick or the Lanier Comet. And the 40L gave me a lot of building fun correcting the construction weaknesses (wing LG blocks somewhat glued into 1/8" balsa with no ply reenforcement, control surfaces of marginal area, joints with no trace of glue, Metric push rods and clevises that slid together and apart, things like that, and also adding a turtle deck and a semi cowled nose). I know more than a few fellow old F **ts who dislike ARFs because of experiences years ago with problems that actually were handed from mfg to mfg without correcting the problems. Kind of a once burned twice shy. Some companies still seem to try to peddle junk today.

Jim_McIntyre

One of my biggest beefs stems from this fact. Not only do many people get turned off the hobby by a bad experience with this same junk, but I've witnessed some pretty scary incidents as these things come apart in the air. Insurance rates are high enough already, we don't need any more lawsuits.[>:]

It's been said before and I think I hear it being said here, flying is a great sport, building is a wonderful hobby, I prefer the full experience.

I refuse to criticise anything I have no experience with. My Raptor heli was an ARF. I tore it down and rebuilt it( using thread lock where needed ) because I didn't trust the factory job. A good thing I did too as I'm convinced I would have been been lucky not to be hit by loose parts if I hadn't.[>:]
Does the average ARF consumer do this? Do you think this thought would even enter the mind of the average beginner entering the hobby?

captjack

My Feedback: (3)

the one downside to the arf's is not immediately apparent but will show itself as new kits will not be introduced as the market shrinks then the current kits will be discontinued and finally kit mfg will start closing their doors.To be honest i have always built kits and like others said i would not go the arf route but with the price of the arf vs price of kit arf is a good value for the money.just yesterday went to a hobby shop,haven't been to one in about 2 years.$20 got me 2 pkg of small dubro pinned hinges ,2 pkgs of klett large scale pinned hinges and a piece of maple 1'x1/2'x18'.not like i remmember prices.

flyst

I really like the flying end of the hobby but building is my true sweet heart ...some one said above the flight line is not as appealing as it used to be...with all the arf's it looks like we have a bunch of K-Mart shoppers..and all the planes look the same..I was at three fun flies in the last three weeks ..and all three feilds there were severlal "Twist"..for 99 bucks let's fun fly those through the limbo poles ...but you won't see me flying my Intercepter in limbo...so yes you can have your cake and fly a Twist ...too!...BTW you scale guys rock!

jbracing

If it was not for Arfs, I would not have got into the RC hobby. After being in this hobby, I hope to scratch build one some day! Time is a luxury for me and others right now.

50+AirYears

Also, sometimes the lines are kind of blured between kit and ARF. One of my fellow club members bought a Byron Pitts biplane when they first came out. They were pretty much considered ARFs at the time.
When he finally got it out to the field, his comment was to the effect that he had 20 hours more building time in this ARF than he had put into a Royal kit of the same plane.
BTW, up until a couple months ago, 60 to 80 hour work weeks had me working mostly with ARFs that let me get something flying usually in less than a month with maybe 15 to 20 hours total work. Now that I am back to a healthier 50 hour or less work week, I have pretty much returned to kit and plan building. More fun, more satisfaction, more sense of accomplishing something worthwhile. And often better flying.

gow589

My Feedback: (1)

There is fun in flying models, Pride in building them. Putting together an ARF usually makes me wish I had built it my way.

I think the number of people building kits in a meaningfull way. The people who take pride in building their stuff will always be there. ARFs have brought so many people to the hobby that wouldn't build kits and frankly wouldn't be in this hobby if it wasn't for arfs. It makes the kit builders a smaller percentage but still much the same people.

Gary