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Zap (Pacer) Hinge Glue - caution

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Zap (Pacer) Hinge Glue - caution

Old 02-01-2006, 06:31 PM
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Newc
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Default Zap (Pacer) Hinge Glue - caution

I'm in the middle of building a giant scale plane with balsa sheeted wings, and since I've heard so many good things about the Zap (Pacer) Hinge Glue, was planning to use it for attaching my Robart hinges. Before using the hinge glue on the plane I decided to conduct a quick experiment to convince me to change from my previous use of epoxy for this application.

Following is a complete, unedited except to remove addresses and email addresses, exchange that I had today with Pacer Technology (Super Glue Corporation).

1) Me to Pacer via their website 'contact us':

"This is in regards to Zap Hinge Glue...

Since I use and recommend Zap adhesives exclusively for model plane building, I decided that I should try the Hinge Glue on my newest plane with balsa sheeted foam wings and Robart Hinge Points. Shortly after getting some Zap Hinge Glue from Tower Hobbies I did a test on a section representing a wing and an aileron, following the instructions of both Robart and Pacer: Drilled a 3/16" hole for the hinge point, forced the Zap Hinge Glue into the hole, inserted the hinge points into both surfaces, taped the surfaces together and then set the pieces aside for 2 1/2 hours - well beyond the 'time to handling’ of 30 minutes. At this time I was surprised and disappointed when, after removing the tape, the hinges easily came right out of both pieces, and the glue was still wet!

Since Frank Tiano seems to know an awful lot about the Zap line, I sent him an email asking for his comments, thinking he was going to tell me that the glue must have been old, or something like that. Instead, here's his response: "What you have experienced is due to one simple fact! The pocket in which the hinge point is inserted into is so tight that there is no way for “air” top (sic) get to the structure to force the cure. In a wood wing, the hole is usually drilled all the way through the rear spar and air may enter though the back side. You would find that if you used a little less glue and drilled a small “vertical” hole down through the pocket, the glue would cure." For what it’s worth, the holes in the foam weren’t really that tight.

Then I noticed that on Frank’s website that it is stated that the Hinge Glue should not be used on styrofoam, while on the Tower website it specifically states that it is to be used on foam, and on your bottle it merely states “Bonds Virtually all Hinge Material”, which is the same statement as on your website product information.

Could you please explain to me what the facts are surrounding the use of your product? If not OK for foam, why does Tower say it’s OK? If not proper for foam, why doesn’t your information so state? If it is to be used on foam, why does Frank’s website state otherwise? If extraordinary measures are needed to be taken when using the Hinge Glue such as Frank states, why don’t you so state on your bottle and/or website?

I look forward to your timely response as I’m in the middle of building a 104” wingspan plane.

Thanks,

Jim Newcombe"

2) Response

"We are not sure why the Hinge Glue did not dry in the specified time. This is a water-based formula, so once the water evaporates, the glue should be good and set. If used in a very cold environment, perhaps that is why the glue did not dry. If you send your address, we can send a replacement sample. We have also attached the sales sheet on this product for your review.

Regards,
Mary

Mary Robles, Regulatory Affairs Manager
SUPER GLUE CORPORATION / Pacer Technology "

3) My response to theirs

"Thanks for the quick reply, Mary. The Zap Hinge Glue on which I reported was used in a heated (72 degrees) workshop.

I notice that on the sales sheet that you sent it very clearly states (the second sentence, even before saying that the parts can be handled in 30 minutes) "Not for use with Styrofoam.", so you and Frank Tiano seem to be in concert on that, and in conflict with the Tower Hobbies statements. I am still very confused as to why you make such a clear statement to not use your Hinge Glue on foam in the sales sheet that you sent (dated 2004), while on your bottles, and even on the "Product Details" page of your website (even today), there's no such mention of this important fact.

By the way (and taking notice of your title), you may wish to note that Styrofoam®™ (a term used very frequently in modeling circles) is a trademark of Dow Chemical Company for their extruded polystyrene, and is always blue in color. I assume that you mean the typical white foam, expanded polystyrene, the density of which may vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. Am I correct in this assumption?

Given that you - at least now - do not recommend the use of the Hinge Glue for foam, I cringe to think of the number of planes that are now in service where the glue was used with foam wings, and which may crash as a result of the hinges becoming loose.

Also, you probably ought to make sure that the Tower Hobbies are made aware of the restriction to not use the Zap Hinge Glue on foam, since the following is what they have to say about the Pacer Hinge Glue on their website (the emphasis is mine):

"This is a Bottle of Maximum Strength Hinge Glue by Pacer Technology.
FEATURES: A unique product developed just for model and toy builders.
Use it to glue Robart Hinge Points, and other flat style nylon hinges
in balsa and foam.
Use it to glue leading and trailing edges to foam cores, also great
great (sic) for false rib caps on foam."

I hope that something is done to make it clear to modelers what the appropriate uses of, as ell as the restrictions on the use of, the Zap Hinge Glue are, and I would suggest that publication of clarification statements from you in the various modeling magazines would be most appropriate, as well as you notifying the AMA so that they may put out a bulletin on their website (as they have done for proper battery usage) in order to attempt to prevent the loss of planes and/or personal injury and/or property damage.

I look forward to learning of your next steps in this regard.

James L. Newcombe"

I suggest using all due caution when using the Zap (Pacer) Hinge Glue, as it is not a complete replacement for epoxy for hinge attaching.
Old 02-01-2006, 10:47 PM
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seanreit
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Default RE: Zap (Pacer) Hinge Glue - caution

Amazing efforts, but for the life of me, I'm not sure I would ever go down that road. The last thing I want in my flying models is a water based glue, or anything not catalyzed.

I use Hysol 9462 exclusively for all robart hinging. The hole down from the top that they were suggesting is also what I recommend. What I do is drill the two holes, one for the hinge and one 90 degrees straight up (or down). Then I glue from the vertical hole till it just starts to ooze out with the hinge already in place.

What is created is an epoxy 90 into the wing. The hinge will never ever come out as it would have to pull out part of the wing itself (in my mind this could never happen on any of my jets, even in a massive flutter situation, I just don't see it letting go).

Anyway, very good info for anyone that was considering or has used that product, but any time hinging comes up, I feel it's important to get a very very rigid technique out there into the main stream.

Regards,

Sean
Old 02-03-2006, 06:56 AM
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Default RE: Zap (Pacer) Hinge Glue - caution

As an update to my original post above...

Yesterday at 12:40 PM I sent the following note to Tower Hobbies:

"Attached is a posting I made on RC Universe regarding Zap Hinge Glue, and including a response to some questions that I had for Pacer Technology. Since it appears that the information on your website regarding this product is in error - perhaps due to Pacer's lax attitude about informing people about an important feature of their glue - I feel that you will find the attachment to be of interest."

In looking at the Tower website information about the Hinge Glue just now I see that they have changed their description of the uses for this glue to the following (just quoting the first two paragraphs as I did earlier):

"A unique product developed just for model and toy builders.
Use it to glue Robart Hinge Points, and other flat style nylon hinges
into wood
Use it to glue leading and trailing wing edges"

Notice that they have removed all references to foam. They went even further than that, and added the following as a last sentence in their description:

"Not safe for use on polystyrene foam"

Whether or not they were in direct contact with Pacer and therefore made the change or it was as a result of my note to them, I applaud Tower for taking very quick action on this matter.

Since my original posting was on three forums, the administrators moved the post to this location and the others were removed. As a result of this, some of the replies to the original post were lost. One of the replies stated that he had had extremely good performance with Zap Hinge Glue in foam, even conducting a test as I had done, but that he had left the surfaces alone for two days before getting back to them, and at that time they were rock solid. I replied that I had heard similar stories from others, and was therefore curious as to why Pacer was recommending against the use in foam. Since I have not heard anything back from Pacer to my last note a couple of days ago, I must assume that while you may get a good solid attachment initially, there may be longer term negative effects.
Old 02-03-2006, 09:19 AM
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Default RE: Zap (Pacer) Hinge Glue - caution

Two words- Gorilla Glue.

Check out this how to:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/magazine/a...article_id=269

The Hysol is excellent and if you're building a turbine or composite plane it's definately called for but to just install hinges on a balsa/foam wing the GG is great. Heck you could have used it to sheet the foam as well.
Old 02-03-2006, 12:10 PM
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Default RE: Zap (Pacer) Hinge Glue - caution

Basinbum beat me to it..

With Gorilla Glue or Probond around why would anyone mess with anything else??

Pacer is good on Klett type hinges, I would NEVER use it on Robarts. GG is the only way to go with round pin hinges like the Robarts.. don't even need to sand them . just dampen the holes, lube the hinge pin, wipe the barbs with alcohol and GG away... the water does the work.. no air required.

Gorilla Glue - $6 at home depot, unlimited shelf life
Hysol - $40 at an aerospace supplier, comes in large portion (like pints) , has 6 month shelf life and short pot life ... very good stuff but WAY overkill for hinges on wood wings... I agree on its use for jets though... never can be strong enough there...

DP

Old 02-03-2006, 06:29 PM
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Default RE: Zap (Pacer) Hinge Glue - caution

I completely agree on the use of GG. What started this was an experiment of GG and Zap Hinge Glue. The GG worked fine, with me having to pull the hinge out with a visegrip pretty much destroying the test piece.

BasinBum - I did sheet the foam cores with Gorilla Glue and it worked great on the parts that I have done so far - the tailfeathers. Before doing that I conducted an experiment on that as well. That's reported on the "Composites, Fabriction and Repair" Forum - "Vacuum Bagging & Gorilla Glue Experiment".
Old 02-03-2006, 07:53 PM
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Default RE: Zap (Pacer) Hinge Glue - caution

Gorilla glue is not my favorite because it FOAMS out of a joint, Whenever and for as long as it feels like. If you answer a phone call and come back later, TOO BAD, it has set up on the outside of the joint. Removing it is difficult. It stains your hands BLACK for days.

Pick something else. All great cabinet makers do.
Old 02-03-2006, 08:18 PM
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Default RE: Zap (Pacer) Hinge Glue - caution

[8D]wow, "Regulatory Affairs Manager". Pretty inpressive title!!
Old 02-03-2006, 08:54 PM
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Default RE: Zap (Pacer) Hinge Glue - caution

ORIGINAL: cyclops2

Gorilla glue is not my favorite because it FOAMS out of a joint, Whenever and for as long as it feels like. If you answer a phone call and come back later, TOO BAD, it has set up on the outside of the joint. Removing it is difficult. It stains your hands BLACK for days.

Pick something else. All great cabinet makers do.
Maybe you have to be just a little smarter than the gorilla, or at least the glue.
Old 02-04-2006, 06:32 AM
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Default RE: Zap (Pacer) Hinge Glue - caution

wow, "Regulatory Affairs Manager". Pretty impressive title!!
With that title I figure she's a part of their legal department and that's why she didn't directly respond to my request for foam-specific information, and why I didn't get any response from her to my second message to them. But, I'll wager that the next run of labels has something to say about not to be used on foam.

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