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Old 05-12-2007 | 10:38 PM
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Default Foam Core Wings. Light, or heavy?

Do foam core wings build heavier or lighter than built up wings?

I'm contemplating building Miss Norway to learn a new construction technique, and use for sportsman pattern along with my or instead of my Ultra Sport. It is supposed to handle crosswinds exeptionally well (according to RC Modeler Magazine's "Flight Training Course" for pattern{Antiquated now, but still usefull.}).

If I can learn how to cut foam cores well, maybe it might be worth my while to cut foam cores for the Ultra Sport as well.

Upon browsing the archives on this subject, there really wasn't much that jumped out at me as to this particular question.
Old 05-13-2007 | 08:52 AM
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Default RE: Foam Core Wings. Light, or heavy?

In general foam core vs built up are very close in weight when the foam core wing is properly built. But too much glue and/or heavy wood can quickly cause the Foam core wing to gain alot of unwanted weight. The sheet attachment methods vary with contact cement or very thin layer epoxy being the traditional methods. The old D&B kits use a almost totally sheeted wing meaning that the foam core was cut with the leading edge. So you have to sheet around the leading edge which could be somewhat challenging. Traditionally you just sheet the core, glue on a balsa leading edge and whatever it takes for the trailing. Cutting foam cores is not a real hard thing to do.
Old 05-13-2007 | 08:54 AM
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Default RE: Foam Core Wings. Light, or heavy?

depends on the foam used,but if you use one pound/cubic foot eps foam[virgin] it is the white foam.typically they built the same weight as a built up wing but are alot stronger.as far as cutting your own ,it can be done but for the cost of shipping the blank foam to you and the equipment it is easier just to buy the core allreadycut.I believe there are miss norway cores available.try here
http://www.dbalsa.com/foam_wings/alphabetical.htm
Old 05-13-2007 | 10:06 AM
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Default RE: Foam Core Wings. Light, or heavy?

I think foam is always going to be heavier than built up.

Whats all that space between the ribs in a built up wing? Air

Whats air weigh? Nothing

Whats foam weigh? Solid foam wing?

Even using 1 pound density foam--compared to 8 pound balsa. I still think balsa built up is lighter than foam. There is very little of that balsa in a built up wing.

Thats my totally biased opinion because I prefer a built up wing over foam sheeted. IMO--sheeting foam wings is a pain in the butt. I can frame up a wing pretty quick.
Old 05-13-2007 | 12:23 PM
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Default RE: Foam Core Wings. Light, or heavy?

With a little of experience you can build a vey light ribs and sticks structure, meanwhile you don't have this option with foam.
As a result, a foam core wing is heavier.
Old 05-13-2007 | 04:19 PM
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Default RE: Foam Core Wings. Light, or heavy?

My frustration lies in lack of experience. Not many other ways to put it.

I would like to learn this technique (cutting foam cores), as I think it is helpful to me for future modeling, but I am also fighting my own skills, or lack there of. I've built quite a few kits and done well, but now I am getting into the realm of cutting my own wood and weighing it. (This is important when you want to build and compete.) Quite frankly, I have no base/experience for comparason in choosing wood to build lite, but strong. There are a ton of books and reference material to look at (which I have and am using), but experience is what is going to dictate a great build. I've simply never built with foam.

I am wanting to get into pattern, but classical pattern, which at this point limits me to sportsman class or the SPA, which is just fine, since I have much to learn. But the aircraft needs to track straight, power through LARGE loops with reserve power, and be competetive. I'm a little overwhelmed, yet quite excited to get my hands dirty.

This may need to be moved to the pattern forum, but I did get answers to my questions. So, thank you everyone.
Old 05-13-2007 | 06:57 PM
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Default RE: Foam Core Wings. Light, or heavy?


ORIGINAL: Rcpilet

I think foam is always going to be heavier than built up.

Whats all that space between the ribs in a built up wing? Air

Whats air weigh? Nothing

Whats foam weigh? Solid foam wing?

Even using 1 pound density foam--compared to 8 pound balsa. I still think balsa built up is lighter than foam. There is very little of that balsa in a built up wing.

Thats my totally biased opinion because I prefer a built up wing over foam sheeted. IMO--sheeting foam wings is a pain in the butt. I can frame up a wing pretty quick.
Uh, air has weight to it just as any other fluid. What's in a built up wing is alot of stuff not found in a foam core wing: ribs, spars, shear webs, etc.
This brings the weight of the two types of wings very close to each other, particularly when speaking of larger sized airplanes.

I find foam core wings much quicker to build up but they do require some aquired experience, particularly when cutting out control surfaces, planning for retracts, etc......
Old 05-13-2007 | 07:44 PM
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Default RE: Foam Core Wings. Light, or heavy?


ORIGINAL: branded


ORIGINAL: Rcpilet

I think foam is always going to be heavier than built up.

Whats all that space between the ribs in a built up wing? Air

Whats air weigh? Nothing

Whats foam weigh? Solid foam wing?

Even using 1 pound density foam--compared to 8 pound balsa. I still think balsa built up is lighter than foam. There is very little of that balsa in a built up wing.

Thats my totally biased opinion because I prefer a built up wing over foam sheeted. IMO--sheeting foam wings is a pain in the butt. I can frame up a wing pretty quick.
Uh, air has weight to it just as any other fluid. What's in a built up wing is alot of stuff not found in a foam core wing: ribs, spars, shear webs, etc.
This brings the weight of the two types of wings very close to each other, particularly when speaking of larger sized airplanes.

I find foam core wings much quicker to build up but they do require some aquired experience, particularly when cutting out control surfaces, planning for retracts, etc......
I disagree about air having weight to it. Thats an argument over symantecs and pointless in this discussion.

I kow how to build a foam wing. Done a few dozen of them. I just don't like it.

You still have spars in some foam wings. You still have a leading edge piece of balsa on the wing. You still have a trailing edge piece on the wing AND another leading edge piece on the control surface. You still have caps on the root and tip. Just like a balsa plane.

A balsa wing isn't always sheeted on the whole wing--so there is weight savings over a foam wing. A balsa wing has a lot of air in it and air weighs less than foam--I don't care what planet you live on. Foam is heavier than air--thats the point.

Look how much more glue it takes to install a phenolic tube in a foam wing as opposed to a built up wing. On a foam wing, you really should be coating the entire socket with glue and making sure you get glue on every part of the tube when its in the socket.

In a built up wing, your only going to put glue where the phenolic touches the ribs. If your a good builder, you wipe off runs and keep the glue neat.

Glue weighs something. There's a lot more glue in a foam wing than a built up wing. I certainly think there is.

Okay, your turn ....

Maybe we should do an experiment? I'm fixin to build an 80" wing with about 980 sq.in this summer. It will be a traditional balsa wing. Maybe I should weigh it as I build and you should start that kit you've been eyeballing for the last 2yrs. You know, the one with the foam wings?
Old 05-13-2007 | 08:25 PM
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Default RE: Foam Core Wings. Light, or heavy?


ORIGINAL: Rcpilet


ORIGINAL: branded


ORIGINAL: Rcpilet

I think foam is always going to be heavier than built up.

Whats all that space between the ribs in a built up wing? Air

Whats air weigh? Nothing

Whats foam weigh? Solid foam wing?

Even using 1 pound density foam--compared to 8 pound balsa. I still think balsa built up is lighter than foam. There is very little of that balsa in a built up wing.

Thats my totally biased opinion because I prefer a built up wing over foam sheeted. IMO--sheeting foam wings is a pain in the butt. I can frame up a wing pretty quick.
Uh, air has weight to it just as any other fluid. What's in a built up wing is alot of stuff not found in a foam core wing: ribs, spars, shear webs, etc.
This brings the weight of the two types of wings very close to each other, particularly when speaking of larger sized airplanes.

I find foam core wings much quicker to build up but they do require some aquired experience, particularly when cutting out control surfaces, planning for retracts, etc......
I disagree about air having weight to it. Thats an argument over symantecs and pointless in this discussion.

I kow how to build a foam wing. Done a few dozen of them. I just don't like it.

You still have spars in some foam wings. You still have a leading edge piece of balsa on the wing. You still have a trailing edge piece on the wing AND another leading edge piece on the control surface. You still have caps on the root and tip. Just like a balsa plane.

A balsa wing isn't always sheeted on the whole wing--so there is weight savings over a foam wing. A balsa wing has a lot of air in it and air weighs less than foam--I don't care what planet you live on. Foam is heavier than air--thats the point.

Look how much more glue it takes to install a phenolic tube in a foam wing as opposed to a built up wing. On a foam wing, you really should be coating the entire socket with glue and making sure you get glue on every part of the tube when its in the socket.

In a built up wing, your only going to put glue where the phenolic touches the ribs. If your a good builder, you wipe off runs and keep the glue neat.

Glue weighs something. There's a lot more glue in a foam wing than a built up wing. I certainly think there is.

Okay, your turn ....

Maybe we should do an experiment? I'm fixin to build an 80" wing with about 980 sq.in this summer. It will be a traditional balsa wing. Maybe I should weigh it as I build and you should start that kit you've been eyeballing for the last 2yrs. You know, the one with the foam wings?
Well, perhaps you should inflate your wings with some helium, a lighter than air fluid......Air, the volume of the cavities between ribs, is relevant to this discussion....The more ribs, and balsa structure, the less volume of air.....and the more weight introduced by structural members, for a given sized built up wing.

I only speak from 35 years of experience....I've built both kinds of wings. Foam core wings require less structure and are inherently stronger.

Yes, there are spars and structure in a foam wing but far less than that of a built up wing....which makes up for the additional volume of the foam....

Helium anyone?
Old 05-13-2007 | 09:09 PM
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Default RE: Foam Core Wings. Light, or heavy?

I can't cover well enough to keep the helium trapped inside for any length of time.
Old 05-13-2007 | 10:12 PM
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Default RE: Foam Core Wings. Light, or heavy?


ORIGINAL: Rcpilet

I can't cover well enough to keep the helium trapped inside for any length of time.
Well, please revert to your H.S. Physics....When you add "anything" to a container, this time a wing cavity pf a given volume, you displace the air inside with that "anything".....

Given the geometry of the wing is fixed, you can either displace the air with spars/wing ribs/shear webs, or spars and foam....either way your filling the space with "something"...and yes, air does have a weight....

Cheers...
Old 05-13-2007 | 10:29 PM
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Default RE: Foam Core Wings. Light, or heavy?

Rcpilet:
A balsa wing isn't always sheeted on the whole wing
Why would you have to fully sheet a foam wing? Couldn't you sheet the way you would on a built up wing? That would mean to cut cap strips and leave the "rib bays" open- with exception to LE sheeting to the spar, and TE sheeting?

Of course the foam would still be there, but between the covering and the sheeting with mock cap strips, there would still be a lot of strength, fooling the normal eye to a regularly stick built wing. Wouldn't there?
Old 05-13-2007 | 10:52 PM
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Default RE: Foam Core Wings. Light, or heavy?


ORIGINAL: branded


ORIGINAL: Rcpilet

I can't cover well enough to keep the helium trapped inside for any length of time.
Well, please revert to your H.S. Physics....When you add "anything" to a container, this time a wing cavity pf a given volume, you displace the air inside with that "anything".....

Given the geometry of the wing is fixed, you can either displace the air with spars/wing ribs/shear webs, or spars and foam....either way your filling the space with "something"...and yes, air does have a weight....

Cheers...
I concede your point. Air has weight.

But, your not acknowledging my point.

Air is lighter than foam.

I still like built up wings better. I think they are lighter. A foam wing is easier to repair though.
Old 05-13-2007 | 11:15 PM
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Default RE: Foam Core Wings. Light, or heavy?


ORIGINAL: Rcpilet


ORIGINAL: branded


ORIGINAL: Rcpilet

I can't cover well enough to keep the helium trapped inside for any length of time.
Well, please revert to your H.S. Physics....When you add "anything" to a container, this time a wing cavity pf a given volume, you displace the air inside with that "anything".....

Given the geometry of the wing is fixed, you can either displace the air with spars/wing ribs/shear webs, or spars and foam....either way your filling the space with "something"...and yes, air does have a weight....

Cheers...
I concede your point. Air has weight.

But, your not acknowledging my point.

Air is lighter than foam.

I still like built up wings better. I think they are lighter. A foam wing is easier to repair though.
Yes, air is lighter than foam, but the point is that foam is air plus solids and when given a particular wing planform, and finite volume, the foam is no heavier than built up structure by volume given the absense of traditional structure, eg, ribs, shear webbing, etc......

The fact is, with a given planform, when using a foam core you can actually reduce the sheeting thickness because foam has more structural strength than traditional "eggshell" construction.

If the plan calls for 3/32" sheeting for a builtup wing, you can use a 1/16" on a foam core wing....

The downside of a foam core wing is as I said, it's not for novices. There are assumed, or aquired skills, that not all have, not to mention some tooling such as vacuum pump and bagging equipment.

The fact is, if an experienced builder is given the task to build both, they will be nearly equal in weight; however, the foam wing will be completed in far less construction steps.
Old 05-13-2007 | 11:31 PM
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Default RE: Foam Core Wings. Light, or heavy?

branded:
The downside of a foam core wing is as I said, it's not for novices. There are assumed, or aquired skills, that not all have, not to mention some tooling such as vacuum pump and bagging equipment.
Sorry, this is where I will disagree. You do not need a vacuum pump and bagging equipment. True, that is one method to cover the wing, but plastic covering is very strong and is plenty to cover a finished foam core wing. A tried and tested method as I have witnessed myself.
Old 05-14-2007 | 05:07 AM
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Default RE: Foam Core Wings. Light, or heavy?

Excuse me for entering in this discussion without an invitation but I really got confused of what you said.
What air, helium and inflating the wing have got to do with this?
Come on guys, be seriuos!
Light or heavy means what you read on the scale display which converts into wing load. That's it.
Since we are talking about wing weight, I also disagree about repairing foam core wing.
It may be easier but the additional weight it causes is huge, whereas when you repair a build up wing its weight will be the same afterward.
I'd like to point out one more thing. In a built up wing the covering film is part of the structure, it provides stiffness and stength unlike for the foam wing is only an esthetic application.
This has been neglected and I think it would be worth to mention rather than the amount of glue needed when building one or the other, which is a very subjective factor.
One more question. Which building technique do the sailplane guys adopt for their 10 feet wing span-and-above creations? Are they keen on light structures or do they like thier planes diving like P 51's?
Old 05-14-2007 | 07:19 AM
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Default RE: Foam Core Wings. Light, or heavy?


ORIGINAL: PiccoLino

Excuse me for entering in this discussion without an invitation but I really got confused of what you said.
What air, helium and inflating the wing have got to do with this?
Come on guys, be seriuos!
Light or heavy means what you read on the scale display which converts into wing load. That's it.
Since we are talking about wing weight, I also disagree about repairing foam core wing.
It may be easier but the additional weight it causes is huge, whereas when you repair a build up wing its weight will be the same afterward.
I'd like to point out one more thing. In a built up wing the covering film is part of the structure, it provides stiffness and stength unlike for the foam wing is only an esthetic application.
This has been neglected and I think it would be worth to mention rather than the amount of glue needed when building one or the other, which is a very subjective factor.
One more question. Which building technique do the sailplane guys adopt for their 10 feet wing span-and-above creations? Are they keen on light structures or do they like thier planes diving like P 51's?
It has to do with volume, as branded says....When you add "stuff" to a wing such as ribs and shear webs, you displace air...On the other hand, foam is air and solids spread out to occupy the same volume completely without the ribs, etc.

Old 05-14-2007 | 07:25 AM
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Default RE: Foam Core Wings. Light, or heavy?


ORIGINAL: Ilikebipes

branded:
The downside of a foam core wing is as I said, it's not for novices. There are assumed, or aquired skills, that not all have, not to mention some tooling such as vacuum pump and bagging equipment.
Sorry, this is where I will disagree. You do not need a vacuum pump and bagging equipment. True, that is one method to cover the wing, but plastic covering is very strong and is plenty to cover a finished foam core wing. A tried and tested method as I have witnessed myself.
Um, yes on some airplanes. However, you'll rarely see this construction method (plain foam core covered in plastic) on most giant scale aircraft. In fact I can't think of a single one in recent memory that used plastic covering over foam....Some of Byrons bi-planes used this method but I haven't seen any recent airframes marketed this way for a while now.

Warbirds, in particular will be sheeted (now I'm only talking about wings now, as that is the topic at hand).
Some guys use the shucks to sheet the foam wing by placing heavy weights on them until the glue sets but it's really best to use vacuum bagging technique.
Old 05-14-2007 | 09:29 AM
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Default RE: Foam Core Wings. Light, or heavy?

Ilikebipes, You are correct, you don't need to fully sheet a foam wing. You can just sheet the LE and TE and then add cap strips
Old 05-14-2007 | 11:08 AM
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Default RE: Foam Core Wings. Light, or heavy?

MinnFlyer:
Ilikebipes, You are correct, you don't need to fully sheet a foam wing. You can just sheet the LE and TE and then add cap strips
Thankyou Sir.
Old 05-14-2007 | 05:46 PM
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Default RE: Foam Core Wings. Light, or heavy?

ilikebibes,
the feathercut foam wing cutter I mentioned in my last pm is available here
http://www.tekoa.com/
Old 05-14-2007 | 08:08 PM
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Default RE: Foam Core Wings. Light, or heavy?

you don't need to fully sheet a foam wing. You can just sheet the LE and TE and then add cap strips
Well it is not quite that simple, unless I missed something. With the cap strips in place the bays between them will have to be cut out or recessed about 1/4" deep both sides of the wing. If they are to be cut out completely the top and bottom cap strips will have to line up.

Why do the bays have to be removed you ask? If the foam is not removed, when the covering is applied it will sag between the cap strips and stick to the foam. The result will be one awful looking wing with sort of flattish patches in every bay and a truly wierd airfoil. It will be a mess.

Ed S
Old 05-14-2007 | 09:36 PM
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Default RE: Foam Core Wings. Light, or heavy?

I just completed an Akrobat (75" span), a Gerry Graham design from back in the late '80s. He kitted this plane and provided a roughly framed jig build fuselage and mostly finished jig built wings. My kit lay in the barn for twenty years waiting to be built but is now flying.

Gerry used foam ribs with cap strips, which results in the lightest wing of any plane I've built.... but I gotta agree that of the foam wings I've build, they seem a slightly heavier.

btw, I scratch built a Simitar many years ago using a self cut foam wing and used cap strips and had no problems with the covering touching the cores... so I'd argue that cap stripping can be done.
Old 05-14-2007 | 09:40 PM
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Default RE: Foam Core Wings. Light, or heavy?

If you're going to argue, add some fact please. Like what is your weight per sq foot or sq inch?

I just built a 54" span wing for a sport plane. It was covered in tyveck and had a heavy wood spar. It weighed in at 4.66 oz per sq ft.

Someone else gonna add some fact here?
Old 05-14-2007 | 09:48 PM
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Default RE: Foam Core Wings. Light, or heavy?


ORIGINAL: batchelc

If you're going to argue, add some fact please. Like what is your weight per sq foot or sq inch?

I just built a 54" span wing for a sport plane. It was covered in tyveck and had a heavy wood spar. It weighed in at 4.66 oz per sq ft.

Someone else gonna add some fact here?
Facts are hard to come by on these forums.

You can get plenty of opinions though.


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