Go Back  RCU Forums > RC Airplanes > Questions and Answers
Reload this Page >

Flying Field Airplane noise

Notices
Questions and Answers If you have general RC questions or answers discuss it here.

Flying Field Airplane noise

Old 02-12-2008, 12:58 PM
  #1  
flyfisher431
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Chugiak, AK
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Flying Field Airplane noise

One of the local government bodies here in Alaska recently passed an anti RC ordinance that covers an area the size of the state of West Virginia. Essentially the ordinance says that if the sound your remote control vehicle (covered all kinds cars, cars trucks, boats, planes) raises the ambient noise on someone else’s property by 5 DB in the day and 3 DB at night you are in violation and can be fined. The fines are progressive and get pretty steep with the second offence. In essence the ordinance has shut down our principle competition airfield for everything but electrics and gliders. Has anyone else out there dealt with this kind of obvious discriminatory ordinance? If so, what did your club do?

Thanks for any input.

Ben
Old 02-12-2008, 01:14 PM
  #2  
housedad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Mount Royal, NJ
Posts: 174
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Flying Field Airplane noise

Don't know about what to do, never had that.

But I have to ask if this ordinance is even enforcable.

The Cops would have to go out with a meter for each noise call. A neighbor complaining is a subjective thing and not applicable to the enforcement of that law.

The state would have to prove that the noise level is exactly 5 db or higher AND that it is coming from your location AND that it is coming from your R/C vehicle, and not your lawnmower.

Obviously, since a engine on a test stand is not a vehicle, the ordinance would not apply to bench run ups.

That's a tough one to enforce.
Old 02-12-2008, 01:17 PM
  #3  
rwright142
 
rwright142's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 2,143
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Flying Field Airplane noise

OMG! That is terrible.
Do you have a law that applies to the teenagers that drive in their cars with speakers the size of their trunk? What about full scale boats, jet airplanes, etc. or is this just for RC devices?

I think the AMA should get involved in this.
Old 02-12-2008, 01:19 PM
  #4  
housedad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Mount Royal, NJ
Posts: 174
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Flying Field Airplane noise

To put it in perspective, a 5 DB change is hardly noticeable to the earat low volumes.

This thing is too subjective.
Old 02-12-2008, 01:47 PM
  #5  
Flying freak
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: granby, QC, CANADA
Posts: 1,407
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Flying Field Airplane noise

This is what you do get yourself some small engine that SCREAMS 30K+ rpm run it strait pipe on a test stand with enough fuel so that it willl run throught your flight when you land kill the engine your aircraft has NOT raised the ambient noise by 5db because the ambient noise is louder than the engine in the plane

This was ment as a joke but you think ti would work? ?
Old 02-12-2008, 02:29 PM
  #6  
flyfisher431
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Chugiak, AK
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Flying Field Airplane noise

I thought I'd give you the exact text of the ordinace. You will see that it singles out RC internal combustion engines.

(E) No person shall operate, or permit the operation of powered model
vehicles from a source property in such a manner as to create a 5 dB(A)
increase in the ambient sound level when measured at or within the
boundary of the property of the receiving land when the receiving land
use is residential, or in such a manner as to create a 3 dB(A) increase
in the ambient sound level when the receiving land is a noise sensitive
area, public right-of-way, or borough park.

They were real specific.
Old 02-12-2008, 03:20 PM
  #7  
Dr1Driver
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Spartanburg, SC
Posts: 3,770
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Flying Field Airplane noise

"flyfisher431", I'm afraid y'all are done in. Most municipalities have that sort of ordinance already on the books, to be enforced at will. Someone has either been flying very loud planes or bad relations with a nearby neighbor made him decide he doesn't like the noise. If your field has been there a while, you might try to talk the powers-that-be into grandfathering your location. Good luck.

"housedad", you're dead wrong. The police can and WILL enforce it. They WILL come out with a dB meter and check. It's not subjective at all. If the meter reads over 5dB increase, you're fined. I've seen it happen.

If the surrounding area is already noisy, the club might be in luck. The one thing that also might save you is that sound levels are logrithmic. Twice the distance from the noise source may lower the dB 4 times. I suggest the club buy the same meter the police will use and do some testing "at or within the boundary of the property of the receiving land".

Again, good luck.

Dr.1
Old 02-12-2008, 03:31 PM
  #8  
mscic-RCU
Senior Member
My Feedback: (6)
 
mscic-RCU's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: New London, OH
Posts: 1,237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Flying Field Airplane noise

do you have residential property butting up against your flying field? I know at our field, you have to be ontop of the field before you actually can hear anyone flying. I agree with DR-1 that someone put a burr under someone's saddle. Try talking to the sponsor of the ordinance to see what prompted this action and maybe a compromise could be reached.
Old 02-12-2008, 04:01 PM
  #9  
flyfisher431
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Chugiak, AK
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Flying Field Airplane noise

We have leased the field, part of a larger tract of farmland, for over 10 years. http://www.alaskarc.org/html_pages/m...ffit_field.htm

As with any open space there were few houses when the field lease began. Over time, developers buy land, create housing areas, people move in, and just like the guy that buys a house at the end of the international airport's runway, complain about the airplane noise after they move in. This field was the only airfield that had no altitiude restriction and the loss is really hitting the club hard.

The Ordinace was snuck in through the back door with little fanfare and only became know to the club after the local paper called our club President for his reaction. The Mayor made a symbolic veto even though it passed by unanimous vote. Our club and other enthusiasts showed up at the override meeting in force but even though we outnumber the group that testified for the ordinance 50 to 1 were voted down.

I guess part of my purpose of making this post was hoping that it would fall on the eyes of a RC enthusiast Attorney that was just itching to do som pro-bono work...LOL
Old 02-12-2008, 04:47 PM
  #10  
GUNS
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Petaluma, CA
Posts: 89
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Flying Field Airplane noise

This is my home field too. I had the "lady" (I use this term very lightly!) come down to the flight line while I was flying my 30% Extra. She was very rude and started yelling at me while I was flying. I asked her to wait a minute for me to land and I would talk to her. She was very upset about the noise at her house and the fact that planes had been flying "over her house all morning". There are two problems with her story: I was the only one at the field all morning and the only one flying. I was on my second flight of the day when she came over and started yelling. At no point was I anywhere near being over her house (it is over 1/4 mile away). There is a prominent tree in the tree line that I use for my turn point for final that is still several hundred yards from her house. Turns out after talking to her for a few minutes that she hadn't actually been at home all morning, she was at work and saw me flying while driving home!!![X(] The same day she complained, there was an earthmover working in her yard with dump trucks coming in all day and dumping loads of dirt! There is no way she could have heard my plane over that racket, even if she had been there!

We have been very conscientious about noise and setting limits. We do not fly before 9:00 a.m., and I have never seen anyone there after 7:00 p.m.. The official times were 9 a.m. to 10 p.m., but we changed it to 9 p.m. to try to appease her. We have a lot of the other neighbors around the field come by to watch and they love having us there. The field has been there longer than she has, the house was built well after the field.

The problem I have with this ordinance is that it is directly targeted at us as a club. I can take my 4 wheeler with no muffler to the field and tear around all day long and the law does not apply. I can take my chainsaw to the field and cut wood all day, it still doesn't apply. But the minute I fire up any of my gassers, I can get fined. In looking into it, I don't think there is a muffler/pipe system out there that will meet those noise standards. Short of a legal battle with the borough, we will have to find a new field. To give you an idea of the area of land that this covers, I would have to drive at least 3 hours in any direction to get outside the borough and away from this ordinance!

Tim
Old 02-12-2008, 05:25 PM
  #11  
theradioflyer
Senior Member
 
theradioflyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portage, MI
Posts: 2,109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Flying Field Airplane noise

We lost our field here in Michigan due to this type of ordinance. It can be enforced easily. Now I have invested in electric powered planes, very quiet and less messy. I still own at least 10 gas planes but i have to drive a bit to where I can fly them. Oh, don't count on the AMA to do anything for you either, they did NOTHING to help our situation.
Old 02-13-2008, 12:28 AM
  #12  
pub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: new brighton, PA
Posts: 170
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Flying Field Airplane noise

Get the lady to come to the field and get her into flying, also get the neighbors to help get her to the field. pub
Old 02-13-2008, 02:31 AM
  #13  
Tired Old Man
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Valley Springs, CA
Posts: 18,602
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Default RE: Flying Field Airplane noise

Consult with an attorney. Seems to me that there might be some issues with the law if it does not also apply to noise from other sources that could equally raise the noise levels. Be prepared to spend big bucks if you have a shot at it.
Old 02-13-2008, 04:37 AM
  #14  
bla bla
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Oslo, NORWAY
Posts: 1,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Flying Field Airplane noise

You could imagine living next to a flying site and having to listen to the racket made by us lot. Just dreadful mate.
I average sporty, zinging around all over the place at full throttle. Like a GIANT MOSQUITO. Just terrible...and I love planes.
I would be the first to complain.
Old 02-13-2008, 06:44 AM
  #15  
bkdavy
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
 
bkdavy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: FrederickMD
Posts: 2,114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Flying Field Airplane noise

The part of the law that makes it suspect is the "above ambient" clause. When is the ambient noise level determined? Who determines it? If cited, I would use that as a basis for a challenge in court.

The second thing I would do is conduct an ambient noise survey at the property line. Buy, rent, or borrow a noise meter with a graphic recording capability. Then over the period of a week, take average sound levels and keep the graphs as a club record.

Based on the "average" abient noise levels you determine, establish a maximum noise level that planes may not exceed. For example, our local noise ordinance restricts noise during the daytime to 65db at the recieving property line (not relative to ambient). For reference, 65 db is a normal conversational tone at 1 meter/yard. For a plane that reads 90 db at 9 feet, the sound must spread 165 feet to be below 65 db (assuming spherical spreading and no other attenuation). We therefore established a 90db at 9 feet rule. For the typical pilot, they are generally high enough when near the field boundary to be more than 165 feet from the property line. Factor in careful throttle management, as well as encouraging distance from the boundary, and we can demonstrate that we are not exceeding the noise restriction.

We found that most two stoke engines in the 40-60 size came in well under 90 db if propped to keep the tip speed below .7 mach. Four strokers can be very quiet. I've had times where I couldn't hear my Magnum 91 over the ambient traffic noise.

Keep your records of the ambient survey, records (such as a sticker) that you have checked the planes, and keep the meter and its calibration records. If someone complains, you now have evidence that you can present in court to challenge the complaint.

Admittedly its more effort, but you may be able to keep the field open.

Brad
Old 02-13-2008, 12:27 PM
  #16  
loser
Senior Member
My Feedback: (37)
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Dillsburg, PA
Posts: 289
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default RE: Flying Field Airplane noise

Mmmm...Alaska is a very large state with a lot of very remote wilderness areas. "someone" could easily get lost up there and never be seen or heard from again.....lol.

Crappy situation!! I would have thought Alaska would be the last state to have trouble with development and the noise complaints that come with it.

Good Luck!!!
Old 02-13-2008, 01:15 PM
  #17  
mclina
 
mclina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Westford, MA
Posts: 1,809
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Flying Field Airplane noise

Not to make you feel any worse, but man, that is one beautiful field you have there. I'm really sorry you are having neighbor trouble. I hope you can work them out.
Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	Ca80372.jpg
Views:	21
Size:	185.9 KB
ID:	877700  
Old 02-13-2008, 01:18 PM
  #18  
somegeek
Senior Member
My Feedback: (2)
 
somegeek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vancouver, WA
Posts: 2,138
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Flying Field Airplane noise

ORIGINAL: mclina

Not to make you feel any worse, but man, that is one beautiful field you have there. I'm really sorry you are having neighbor trouble. I hope you can work them out.

Wow! [X(]

To give you an idea of the area of land that this covers, I would have to drive at least 3 hours in any direction to get outside the borough and away from this ordinance!
That's rediculous.

somegeek
Old 02-14-2008, 02:05 PM
  #19  
jetmech05
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 4,865
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Flying Field Airplane noise

Thormburg Va. (just south of Fredericksburg) had a noise complaint a few years back. Took a db meter to the property and found that traffic noise was louder than the aircraft....the complaint was dropped..
I don't know if this is the case with your field or not..looks kinda remote to me.
Fredericksburg Areomasters had a dispute with a neighbor, that turned into an aircraft getting shot down...this was before my time there. we since reached an agreement with the neighbor....The point I am trying to make here is that anytime there is a complaint no matter how stupid the club should try and and work something out with the complainer.....
There are also a few things we can do as fliers to keep complaints down.... Don't over fly property without permisson....Always use a muffler....If flying near homes watch the time of day you fly...perhaps not before 9 am Monday through Sat. not before 11 am on Sunday....Stop flying at dusk unless there is a night fly then quit at midnight. never have a night flight unless it's a Friday or Saturday....
Remeber if the local goverments get involved generally we RC'ers loose
Old 02-14-2008, 03:01 PM
  #20  
flyfisher431
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Chugiak, AK
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Flying Field Airplane noise

We actually did most of what has been suggested. Last year a noise complaint was registered. The testing showed we were well within the limits of the old noise ordinance. The party that made the complaint then complained that we had flown abnormally quite on the days the test were done. We as a club further worked to lower the noise of our AC, curtailed our operating hours, and the club President wrote the complainer a very nice letter explaining what we were doing. Since she is part of a political action group the group got the law changed to single out RC models. The area around our airfield is abnormally quiet, as is a lot of Alaska. When measured abient noise in the area is below 40 DB. We've never overflown her property or house.

On the other hand she has lied about us harrasing wildlife, and as GUNS said screamd and yelled at him while he was trying to fly his plane.

Once again thank for all the input and well wishes. I'll keep this thread going as their is news to share.
Old 02-15-2008, 04:17 AM
  #21  
GUNS
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Petaluma, CA
Posts: 89
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Flying Field Airplane noise

Oh yeah, forgot about the "harassing wildlife" complaints that didn't work! We were accused of chasing birds with our planes. This created a new voluntary rule for most of us at the field, any birds in the area and we would land and wait for them to depart. Not that anyone I know of ever flew near them to begin with. I have had several eagles come near my planes to check them out, but I always make it a point to fly away from them and get it on the ground as soon as possible. A collision with one would be the end of the plane, not to mention giving ammunition to the "anti's"!

Tim
Old 02-15-2008, 06:29 AM
  #22  
bkdavy
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
 
bkdavy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: FrederickMD
Posts: 2,114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Flying Field Airplane noise

Ambient is below 40 db!!! That means the crickets would be in violation! I've got over 40 db sitting in my living room with the heat running. Perhaps 60 hz hum from the flourescent lights in my basement.

This is a case of evironmental extremeism gone completely wacky. Keep flying, and start looking for help from the other side of the political spectrum. It could get messy for a while, but stupidity MUST be challenged.

Brad
Old 02-15-2008, 03:19 PM
  #23  
nerdc0re79
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: huntington beach, CA
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Flying Field Airplane noise

fly a combat wing with an eflite 6 series 2700kv motor and 6x5 prop. thunderbird 54 ESC 3300lipo 25c rating. and get back at me. that is loud
Old 02-16-2008, 08:43 AM
  #24  
bps
My Feedback: (3)
 
bps's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 1,348
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Flying Field Airplane noise

Interesting and just goes to show what government gone wild will do to protect us from ourselves!

Some years ago in my city we hosted a custom car show for street rods. Many complaints about noise and other issues, so the city invited them not to return and made them not welcome. Next thing you know everyone was compaining about all of the lost money! My point is you can not please all, but my hope is that our public officials at least attemp to use good judgement. And when something is out in left field, then leave it there!

Good Luck, it sound like a loosing battle.[:@]
Old 02-16-2008, 09:14 AM
  #25  
bbbair
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Sarnia, ON, CANADA
Posts: 966
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Flying Field Airplane noise

Perhaps you guys are going about this the wrong way.

Find a Neutral if not Sympathetic politician in the area that is willing to hear your side of the story and then invite them out for a visit complete with a DB meter.

Escort them around the property with 3-4 planes flying to prove your point AND take them to the complainer's home to duplicate the experiment. (Witnesses help)

Will this put an end to the Complaint?

Probably not. (Her mind is made up and don't confuse the issue with facts!)

But it will go a long way to making the whiner look like an @$$.

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.