Scaling info needed
06-27-2010 | 06:27 PM
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From: , NM
Scaling info needed
Hello all... just found this site... looks like a great RC resource.
Well... a bit about me before my question (at least today's). I've been a aviation (non-model) homebuilt enthusiast for the past 35 years... and no, unfortunately I've never been able to really feed that interest past the profuse drewl stage (15 visits to EEAs Oshkosh convention... where I basic dehydrate and pass out from it!). If I'm ever going to build a hombuilt... I'd better start now. I do have some ultralight piloting time as well as Cessna 150 PP lessons I was unable to finish. Now I am a relatively poor man by most standards, but we did managae to buy an 18 acre place ( in a very low cost of living area... obviously its not in NM)... we intend to fully own by retirement. All my toys have live at home and eat only when I let them... so long term fixed costs are out (you know, things like marinas or airport facilities). That means what ever I do for a airplane, it has to live and fly from home... but the only place to fly from is 400 x 600 ft small hay field. Thus STOL... no option.
But me being me... and tend to build or modify just about anything (I have a full shop)... I want my cake and eat it too. By basic design needs STOL airfoils are slow and draggy... yep just what one has to have for STOL... but they barely can make 80 kts on a 100hp in cruise... lot of real reasons for this..
So... I need to build up a morphing inflight adjustble wing... with much less drag in cruise config.... in a byplane no less (why? because, one) its not been done, and two), I just like open cockpit flying...hands down. Thus the modeling.
Right now I'm workling the design and mechanicals which I intend to model and have a basic RC biwing ARF kit coming, along with a 4 ch full flight "kit" salvaged from a wrecked gee bee) , (I'll need 6 or 7 ch later),... , an older RC "NIB" 0.60 2 cycle glow... all off eBay, with which I will learn to RC fly for now.... I then will model my wing add more servos and prove it out with the model first (and be denonstratable to FAA prior to build). Worse case senero... I prove to my self it can't be done (without killing myself)... best case... I prove it to FAA homebuild personel and I incoprate it into a human carrying bird (almost wrote "real bird", but to modlers they are a real bird in every way really and likely harder to fly since you are not in it and using your own operational senses).
It will take a bit time getting used to to RC... and I hope throttle response/control is usable with a 2 cycle... I will also some how have to know when Im at the edge of stall... thats what STOLs do...so anyway now the have the gist of the plan.
So... my question to you all relates to real life scaling. Has anyone seen information I can get on transfering model performance... in particular... reverse scaling... I need to emulate a 100hp 1200 lb gross biplane with ~ 50ft STOL but capable of about 119 kts in cruise in a RC model and be able to show the calcs to FAA. Even though I've had the interest in flying forever...I didn't get into RC until now.... basically because the primary thing it will do to me is just be I big giant tease... I want to fly IN it not observe it from the ground.
(no I'm not crazy... but I'm not one to take "it cant be done" very well either... I'm more of a "watch me" type of guy ...thus the modeling)
Well thank you for your interest and any comments.
Dave
Well... a bit about me before my question (at least today's). I've been a aviation (non-model) homebuilt enthusiast for the past 35 years... and no, unfortunately I've never been able to really feed that interest past the profuse drewl stage (15 visits to EEAs Oshkosh convention... where I basic dehydrate and pass out from it!). If I'm ever going to build a hombuilt... I'd better start now. I do have some ultralight piloting time as well as Cessna 150 PP lessons I was unable to finish. Now I am a relatively poor man by most standards, but we did managae to buy an 18 acre place ( in a very low cost of living area... obviously its not in NM)... we intend to fully own by retirement. All my toys have live at home and eat only when I let them... so long term fixed costs are out (you know, things like marinas or airport facilities). That means what ever I do for a airplane, it has to live and fly from home... but the only place to fly from is 400 x 600 ft small hay field. Thus STOL... no option.
But me being me... and tend to build or modify just about anything (I have a full shop)... I want my cake and eat it too. By basic design needs STOL airfoils are slow and draggy... yep just what one has to have for STOL... but they barely can make 80 kts on a 100hp in cruise... lot of real reasons for this..
So... I need to build up a morphing inflight adjustble wing... with much less drag in cruise config.... in a byplane no less (why? because, one) its not been done, and two), I just like open cockpit flying...hands down. Thus the modeling.
Right now I'm workling the design and mechanicals which I intend to model and have a basic RC biwing ARF kit coming, along with a 4 ch full flight "kit" salvaged from a wrecked gee bee) , (I'll need 6 or 7 ch later),... , an older RC "NIB" 0.60 2 cycle glow... all off eBay, with which I will learn to RC fly for now.... I then will model my wing add more servos and prove it out with the model first (and be denonstratable to FAA prior to build). Worse case senero... I prove to my self it can't be done (without killing myself)... best case... I prove it to FAA homebuild personel and I incoprate it into a human carrying bird (almost wrote "real bird", but to modlers they are a real bird in every way really and likely harder to fly since you are not in it and using your own operational senses).
It will take a bit time getting used to to RC... and I hope throttle response/control is usable with a 2 cycle... I will also some how have to know when Im at the edge of stall... thats what STOLs do...so anyway now the have the gist of the plan.
So... my question to you all relates to real life scaling. Has anyone seen information I can get on transfering model performance... in particular... reverse scaling... I need to emulate a 100hp 1200 lb gross biplane with ~ 50ft STOL but capable of about 119 kts in cruise in a RC model and be able to show the calcs to FAA. Even though I've had the interest in flying forever...I didn't get into RC until now.... basically because the primary thing it will do to me is just be I big giant tease... I want to fly IN it not observe it from the ground.
(no I'm not crazy... but I'm not one to take "it cant be done" very well either... I'm more of a "watch me" type of guy ...thus the modeling)
Well thank you for your interest and any comments.
Dave
06-28-2010 | 09:15 PM
#2
RE: Scaling info needed
I don't believe its practical to scale a model directly in regard to power and weight. For example a 1/4 scale model directly done on power would take your 100hp and knock it down to 25 hp. I can't see how an engine that size in the model size your talking would even work. Your 1200 lbs at 1/4 scale woud be 400 lbs. The RC limit I believe ia 50lbs with special waivers, etc. Scaling to model size from 3-views is more about dimensions than power and weight as they are not linear to size. I dont think it matters regarding weight and horsepower. If you build a 1/4 scale model of the real thing and it flies then your good. just figure the HP needed for the real plane irrespective of what the model is using. Just my opinion and probably should be taken lightly since I've never built anything full scale.
Here is a cool site... look at the WW1 replcas most 80% or scale. Look at weight, HP, etc then find the RC kit (1/4 scale, etc) and compare mathematically the scaling, weight, and HP requirements of each.
http://www.airdromeairplanes.com/
Mike
Here is a cool site... look at the WW1 replcas most 80% or scale. Look at weight, HP, etc then find the RC kit (1/4 scale, etc) and compare mathematically the scaling, weight, and HP requirements of each.
http://www.airdromeairplanes.com/
Mike
06-28-2010 | 09:54 PM
#3
RE: Scaling info needed
How about a light home-built helicopter?
I think a "morphing wing" in a human flight capable aircraft is beyond home plumbing. If you can afford that kind of design and milling equipment you can afford a larger airstrip. Unless you're thinking Fowler flaps or some such, something like a Storch or an Anatov AN-2 (which rumor has it can be had for $30,000)
Google: Murphy Rebel 160
http://www.airbum.com/pireps/PirepRebel160.html
I think a "morphing wing" in a human flight capable aircraft is beyond home plumbing. If you can afford that kind of design and milling equipment you can afford a larger airstrip. Unless you're thinking Fowler flaps or some such, something like a Storch or an Anatov AN-2 (which rumor has it can be had for $30,000)
Google: Murphy Rebel 160
http://www.airbum.com/pireps/PirepRebel160.html
06-29-2010 | 12:16 AM
#4
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From: , NM
RE: Scaling info needed
<p class="MsoNormal">Thank you both (Kitbuilder and Charley).
Kitbuilder.. I think you right on the power to weight comment... as the idea is to prove out the wing, but I’d like to be close on the stall and cruise Vs.</p><p class="MsoNormal">Charley... I've thought about the helicopter... but the mechanical design engineer in me (natural, not by education) sees it as a device trying to self destruct in all directions simutaineously at all times... but one never knows I just might.
Yea... I've looked at basically all the STOL mono-wings... and I still may go that route but pattern after the Pete high-wing open cockpit. My design does include a lot of mechanical innards (nice professional engineering term there, I know!) but its really not that difficult, at least for me. Standard aviation fasteners and pins, all locking. Weight, flutter control engineering, and carrying forces +G and -G will be my biggest problem to control and design/calculate. My budget will be in the $20K range and yes I can do a $30-40K category bird for that amount by not using a conventional aviation engine (which is generally close to 1/3 the cost, if not ½, with most of that cost for their &&^%%$* lawyers anyway) The weight penalty for using a Corvair conversion over the Rotax 912 or 914 is only about 10 lbs (with the appropriate crank mods necessary for any automotive conversion, as all were designed to deliver torque only... not carry prop gyro forces or even lateral PSRUs). The Rotax engine alone is about $20K... comparable Lycoming are about the same.<span style=""> </span>I can build up the Corvair for about $3000... running direct drive at 2700 rpm at just over 1/2 its rated hp, but continuously. I've been rebuilding automotive and commercial engines as well as restoring early 1900s antique engines for 45 years... Its not a problem for me. BTW, these little model engines are very very cool…have to watch that.. I’ll start collecting them. <span style=""></span>The last third of costs is avionics.
Charley... I do have machining capability. I acquired it a few years ago.... a 1936 Van Norman #12 horz and vert Mill (9x39x17), as well as a 1920 Hendey 14x5 lathe... including both the 3 jaw and a 4 jaw chuck as well as a center stabilizer. Still cuts fine 60 tpi threads like it was new. Both were already converted from their original 3-phase to 220 single, just needed cleaning up and adjusting the clearances. <span style=""></span>Both work like a charm and still accurate to 0.001.... MY COST... the RT fuel to travel from Cincinnati OH to Rochester NY at 7 mpg to pick them up and haul home... on a tandem axle 12K capacity flatbed antique engine show trailer I built from scratch back in the 90s. Each of the machining units weigh in at about 2600 lbs. I also got another 1500lbs (at least) of tooling. It was a REAL FIND for me... as the primary want of the owner was "a good home" not the scrap yard. I had that... but no money at the time. I had to ask my wife (since we were living on her check) if we could afford the fuel. They then were her Christmas present to me (her idea!).
Yes.. I've been blessed to be a horse of a different color... not much I won't build. My skills are in the top 10% and am meticulous to a fault. The last project was an $800 (yes $800) sight unseen 27ft 30 year old “ready to sail” sailboat with a running outboard. I bought it on eBay. I built up a triple axle 32ft long trailer to haul it home from Green Bay WI with never laying eyes on the boat it was to haul. I had an accurate drawing with one known dimension... that's all I needed. It fit like a glove.<span style=""> </span>I designed the trailer with a sliding triple axle group similar to a semi trailer and fully adjustable everything (although it didn’t need anything but minor tweaks to the bunker’s height... which BTW slid up and down in slots cut buy the above mill)... able to haul up to 18,000 lb gross and 31 or 32 ft 15,000 lb boat. The sailboat lives home too. Its in a shed. The trailer cost three times what the boat did in new and used materials, but 1/4 the cost of a factory and built with MY features. <span style=""></span>It took me three weeks to build full time. A year later I salvaged another hurricane damaged boat for the inboard… the 1650 lb lead keel paid for the trip to FL.<span style=""> </span>I’ll pull anything anywhere and did so professionally in the mid 80s (OTR).<span style=""> </span>I just recently was finally able to buy a Cummins diesel 1 ton 4x4 dually with 5<sup>th</sup> wheel and gooseneck hitches and all Chrysler’s whistles and bells … its 9 years old but only 100,000 miles and show room mint. <span style=""></span>It will relieve my 242,000 mile gas v8 ’94 heavy ¾ for the heavy work its been doing rather routinely for 15 years now.<span style=""> </span>It’ll be 10 years before I let the 1 ton see salt or the woods… maybe never… I’ll always have an old beater around for that duty.</p><p class="MsoNormal"><o
></o></p><p class="MsoNormal">Some people watch TV after work… I go out to the shop and build or restore something.<span style=""> </span>I’ve never used my wrenches to earn a living.. it wouldn’t be fun then… I am a Environmental Scientist specializing in hazardous and radiological waste management.<span style=""> </span>Have been for 20 years now. Yes, sometimes my co-worksers don’t believe my project stories until I show them the pictures or they come out to our place.<span style=""> </span>It took 16 years, but my later-in-life Master’s degree is finally starting to pay off.<span style=""> </span>I was also farm born and raised (rented, not owned) which is where most of my mechanical skills developed… very early in life.<span style=""> </span>Dad was also a machinist…so I learned something of that too.</p><p class="MsoNormal"><o></o></p><p class="MsoNormal">Dave</p>
Kitbuilder.. I think you right on the power to weight comment... as the idea is to prove out the wing, but I’d like to be close on the stall and cruise Vs.</p><p class="MsoNormal">Charley... I've thought about the helicopter... but the mechanical design engineer in me (natural, not by education) sees it as a device trying to self destruct in all directions simutaineously at all times... but one never knows I just might.
Yea... I've looked at basically all the STOL mono-wings... and I still may go that route but pattern after the Pete high-wing open cockpit. My design does include a lot of mechanical innards (nice professional engineering term there, I know!) but its really not that difficult, at least for me. Standard aviation fasteners and pins, all locking. Weight, flutter control engineering, and carrying forces +G and -G will be my biggest problem to control and design/calculate. My budget will be in the $20K range and yes I can do a $30-40K category bird for that amount by not using a conventional aviation engine (which is generally close to 1/3 the cost, if not ½, with most of that cost for their &&^%%$* lawyers anyway) The weight penalty for using a Corvair conversion over the Rotax 912 or 914 is only about 10 lbs (with the appropriate crank mods necessary for any automotive conversion, as all were designed to deliver torque only... not carry prop gyro forces or even lateral PSRUs). The Rotax engine alone is about $20K... comparable Lycoming are about the same.<span style=""> </span>I can build up the Corvair for about $3000... running direct drive at 2700 rpm at just over 1/2 its rated hp, but continuously. I've been rebuilding automotive and commercial engines as well as restoring early 1900s antique engines for 45 years... Its not a problem for me. BTW, these little model engines are very very cool…have to watch that.. I’ll start collecting them. <span style=""></span>The last third of costs is avionics.
Charley... I do have machining capability. I acquired it a few years ago.... a 1936 Van Norman #12 horz and vert Mill (9x39x17), as well as a 1920 Hendey 14x5 lathe... including both the 3 jaw and a 4 jaw chuck as well as a center stabilizer. Still cuts fine 60 tpi threads like it was new. Both were already converted from their original 3-phase to 220 single, just needed cleaning up and adjusting the clearances. <span style=""></span>Both work like a charm and still accurate to 0.001.... MY COST... the RT fuel to travel from Cincinnati OH to Rochester NY at 7 mpg to pick them up and haul home... on a tandem axle 12K capacity flatbed antique engine show trailer I built from scratch back in the 90s. Each of the machining units weigh in at about 2600 lbs. I also got another 1500lbs (at least) of tooling. It was a REAL FIND for me... as the primary want of the owner was "a good home" not the scrap yard. I had that... but no money at the time. I had to ask my wife (since we were living on her check) if we could afford the fuel. They then were her Christmas present to me (her idea!).
Yes.. I've been blessed to be a horse of a different color... not much I won't build. My skills are in the top 10% and am meticulous to a fault. The last project was an $800 (yes $800) sight unseen 27ft 30 year old “ready to sail” sailboat with a running outboard. I bought it on eBay. I built up a triple axle 32ft long trailer to haul it home from Green Bay WI with never laying eyes on the boat it was to haul. I had an accurate drawing with one known dimension... that's all I needed. It fit like a glove.<span style=""> </span>I designed the trailer with a sliding triple axle group similar to a semi trailer and fully adjustable everything (although it didn’t need anything but minor tweaks to the bunker’s height... which BTW slid up and down in slots cut buy the above mill)... able to haul up to 18,000 lb gross and 31 or 32 ft 15,000 lb boat. The sailboat lives home too. Its in a shed. The trailer cost three times what the boat did in new and used materials, but 1/4 the cost of a factory and built with MY features. <span style=""></span>It took me three weeks to build full time. A year later I salvaged another hurricane damaged boat for the inboard… the 1650 lb lead keel paid for the trip to FL.<span style=""> </span>I’ll pull anything anywhere and did so professionally in the mid 80s (OTR).<span style=""> </span>I just recently was finally able to buy a Cummins diesel 1 ton 4x4 dually with 5<sup>th</sup> wheel and gooseneck hitches and all Chrysler’s whistles and bells … its 9 years old but only 100,000 miles and show room mint. <span style=""></span>It will relieve my 242,000 mile gas v8 ’94 heavy ¾ for the heavy work its been doing rather routinely for 15 years now.<span style=""> </span>It’ll be 10 years before I let the 1 ton see salt or the woods… maybe never… I’ll always have an old beater around for that duty.</p><p class="MsoNormal"><o
></o></p><p class="MsoNormal">Some people watch TV after work… I go out to the shop and build or restore something.<span style=""> </span>I’ve never used my wrenches to earn a living.. it wouldn’t be fun then… I am a Environmental Scientist specializing in hazardous and radiological waste management.<span style=""> </span>Have been for 20 years now. Yes, sometimes my co-worksers don’t believe my project stories until I show them the pictures or they come out to our place.<span style=""> </span>It took 16 years, but my later-in-life Master’s degree is finally starting to pay off.<span style=""> </span>I was also farm born and raised (rented, not owned) which is where most of my mechanical skills developed… very early in life.<span style=""> </span>Dad was also a machinist…so I learned something of that too.</p><p class="MsoNormal"><o></o></p><p class="MsoNormal">Dave</p>
07-02-2010 | 07:13 AM
#5
RE: Scaling info needed
Dave,
I personally wouldn't build the EAA. Just my opinion.
If "flying" and participation in General Aviation, is your interest, I would make friends in General Aviation. Those that have a pilot licenses and or airplanes.
My goal would be to build air time and possibly buy into an airplane Club. That is four or five owners of the same airplane. Keeps the price down.
I did this in the early 80's.
Eventually, I purchased a Lake LA4-200T. This is actually a STOL aircraft. I put almost 400 hours in it before I sold it. 377 to be exact.
About your build? I don't believe you will get your STOL performance from a bi-plane. The aspect ratio isn't working for you.
Research aircraft with STOL abilities. I believe you will find single wing aircraft with high aspect ratios.
Keep us informed.
Charles
I personally wouldn't build the EAA. Just my opinion.
If "flying" and participation in General Aviation, is your interest, I would make friends in General Aviation. Those that have a pilot licenses and or airplanes.
My goal would be to build air time and possibly buy into an airplane Club. That is four or five owners of the same airplane. Keeps the price down.
I did this in the early 80's.
Eventually, I purchased a Lake LA4-200T. This is actually a STOL aircraft. I put almost 400 hours in it before I sold it. 377 to be exact.
About your build? I don't believe you will get your STOL performance from a bi-plane. The aspect ratio isn't working for you.
Research aircraft with STOL abilities. I believe you will find single wing aircraft with high aspect ratios.
Keep us informed.
Charles
07-02-2010 | 10:12 AM
#6
RE: Scaling info needed
Some things to consider. A LSA plane has to have the rated stall speed with all the aero aids stowed like flaps and leading edge slats. Also you know that it has to be licensed and you do to as a LSA pilot, just no medical. Scaling size has to be done cubicly, but you cant scale the environment. The air molecules are the same size no matter what; that is why the smaller you go the harder time you have keeping things the same. Biplanes have a bunch of drag; power off they drop like a brick in control. You usually have to fly a biplane powered up to the landing zone and at the last second use the drag to slow it down. A single wing will fly slower better and is more honest at the edge of being just above stall. The only thing about STOL aircraft is you cant rely that they will perform 100% in any conditions. Things have to be right to get that 50 ft ground roll. Bush pilots use it as a safety factor; they want down in 50 but have 200 extra just in case; also the good ones know when it is time to go back to a real airport with a 1000 ft or more if things are not quite right
07-02-2010 | 12:02 PM
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RE: Scaling info needed
Thanks
Yes, I'm still reseraching the LSA category... but mine will always be in the classic homebuilt experimental.
Thank you for the suggestion on full PP and conventional aviation... I've looked at that for years... but now that I'm 57... I'll just stick with the recreational (which could be a problem... although what I am proposing is not really addressed in the LSA category).
After 57 years with various dependencies on other people over the years... I seriously doubt I'd be interested in multiple owners... that sorta thing is always problematic. I'm half own on a old 1950 D4 cat... always an issue... and he's one of my best friends. Also, conventional aviation typed birds have to have everything done by an A&P... whose skills are likely not much different than my own assuming I can find all the appropriate information on any given need. I'm a perfectionist to a fault and can think in terms of a half thou with no problem. I "see" forces.
Also... part of my need for STOL is the fact it has to live at home. When I'm laid off or whatever inbetween work... it cant eat anything...just sit in the shed until I can feed it.
In addition. after 57 years... there has been one reoccuring theme that always seems to come into play... when I pay someone to do pretty much anything... most of the time its not up to my standards when finished ... so I'm pretty much from the school now that if you want it done right... best to research it and do it yourself. And yes its taken 40 years to build up my shop.
Aspect Ratio.... exactly what I am morphing... the rest is neutralizing STOL features. So far I haven't found the "it can't be done" limiter yet... still might... it is a bit difficult to incorporate the KISS priciple however. I've always had trouble with KISS.
Thanks all, keep it coming.
Dave
Yes, I'm still reseraching the LSA category... but mine will always be in the classic homebuilt experimental.
Thank you for the suggestion on full PP and conventional aviation... I've looked at that for years... but now that I'm 57... I'll just stick with the recreational (which could be a problem... although what I am proposing is not really addressed in the LSA category).
After 57 years with various dependencies on other people over the years... I seriously doubt I'd be interested in multiple owners... that sorta thing is always problematic. I'm half own on a old 1950 D4 cat... always an issue... and he's one of my best friends. Also, conventional aviation typed birds have to have everything done by an A&P... whose skills are likely not much different than my own assuming I can find all the appropriate information on any given need. I'm a perfectionist to a fault and can think in terms of a half thou with no problem. I "see" forces.
Also... part of my need for STOL is the fact it has to live at home. When I'm laid off or whatever inbetween work... it cant eat anything...just sit in the shed until I can feed it.
In addition. after 57 years... there has been one reoccuring theme that always seems to come into play... when I pay someone to do pretty much anything... most of the time its not up to my standards when finished ... so I'm pretty much from the school now that if you want it done right... best to research it and do it yourself. And yes its taken 40 years to build up my shop.
Aspect Ratio.... exactly what I am morphing... the rest is neutralizing STOL features. So far I haven't found the "it can't be done" limiter yet... still might... it is a bit difficult to incorporate the KISS priciple however. I've always had trouble with KISS.
Thanks all, keep it coming.
Dave
07-02-2010 | 01:01 PM
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RE: Scaling info needed
Oh, and TFF.... I am well aware of the safety margins.... and yes, our Co. Airport is only about 11 miles away if I were to need it due to non-STOL conditions. Non-STOLconfig will be very close to normal 350-450 ft take off and landing rolls and stall for the Biwing I'm considering.
Truthfully only a few will lend itself to the high STOL angle of attack due to flow interferences from the bottom wing... needs a good bit of setback on the lower wing. In addition there are other mods needed to the fuselage for ground clearance at that angle as well as thrust vectors to consider.
I've given enough secrets away now....
Truthfully only a few will lend itself to the high STOL angle of attack due to flow interferences from the bottom wing... needs a good bit of setback on the lower wing. In addition there are other mods needed to the fuselage for ground clearance at that angle as well as thrust vectors to consider.
I've given enough secrets away now....
07-02-2010 | 01:39 PM
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RE: Scaling info needed
BTW... my first RC bird is due by fed ex today. Its an ARF "ultimate" biwing knockoff in the .40 to .55 glow cat... 42" wingspan. Will see. Might be totally junk... might be just right for my needs... but first I need to learn to fly it. I'll be installing an RC flight sim into this computer later this weekend...
Dave
Dave
