RE: Crashing - a part of the hobby?
 

I can't believe anyone got past the eight paragraph opener! BORING!

RE: Crashing - a part of the hobby?
 

and then we have one of these at the field too......bigtime bummer:(

RE: Crashing - a part of the hobby?
 

When I worked at a local hobble shop and folks would ask if the ships crashed.I would tell them when you put the last stripe or tighten the last screw the model airplane god comes down and stamps a date on it and that is the day it will crash..[X(]You can't see but it is there.
When I fly I try to fly 2 mistakes high. the line of sight will be about 40dge +.
Good luck all,Teach when you can.

RE: Crashing - a part of the hobby?
 

Very good points. After all these planes fly just like the real ones but are just smaller. I wonder if some of the new fangled radios that have telemetry might some day have speed indicators. That would be interesting if we could actually learn our airspeed in relation to the plane desing when flying RC aircraft. That would introduce a whole new world when landing and could have the potential to give a feeling of flying from the cockpit!

RE: Crashing - a part of the hobby?
 

That was written for those that would have something to add to the subject :D

RE: Crashing - a part of the hobby?
 

If I fly Helis that would almost be a guarantee of demolition. I would even bet against myself when it comes to flying Helis. Risk factor would shoot through the roof! [X(]

RE: Crashing - a part of the hobby?
 

No but I think sometimes it could help!!![8D] The point is your more likely to crash a few planes over the years then not. It's that simple. There are a lot of reasons for it but a fact is a fact. Like my really super duper Sukhoi 29 I spent 8 months building and one day forgot to pull out the antenna in my TX, there was the reason but the fact is it ended up in the trash. I don't crash often but it happens. I don't like it but I don't cry about it. I also have no ARFs, I'm a kit and plans builder so when I loose one it's a true loss, usually a one of a kind. I almost lost one last week by having my radio set on the wrong plane, I saved it but it was a thrilling flight. If you fly you will crash, get over the thought and enjoy yourself. Just another reason for a new plane!! I'm just finishing up the replacement for my Kaos 60 right now. Just another old school pattern plane but it looks cooler then the Kaos!!

RE: Crashing - a part of the hobby?
 

I check both ends of all connections. Nuts tight on threaded clevis connectors, Z-links in place, servo screws in place, arms tight, fuel-tube retainers on the clevis, silver-solder connections good, etc. It only takes a minute and I have found things like a loose rod on an aileron that probably would not have been fatal. A loose firewall (one side holding partially and the other three loose) that probably would have been nasty.


Having been a successful bowhunter using the instinctive method I would disagree with that. The human eyes and brain are still the best ballistic computer known. Watch a good quarterback hit a running receiver by leading him properly at 50 yards. Or a grouse or duck hunter properly lead a flying bird at 30 yards. THAT is depth perception at work.

How do R/C pylon racers avoid each other and still make it just outside the pylons? Depth perception.

RE: Crashing - a part of the hobby?
 

Not since I started sniffing glue!!![&:]

Sorry, couldn't resist that one!

Most of my "arrivals" have been my fault, dumb-thumbing or getting distracted from paying close enough attention to the attitude of the A/C. Only had two equipment failure crashes where I can definitly cite the equipment. First was my first plane, a Sr Falcon. It had been dusted up quite a few times and rebuilt as I was learning this hobby. It then sat for several years in storage. I dragged it out one day, checked it over, mounted up a new motor and radio gear and started flying it again. About the fourth time I had it out at the field, it literally disintegrated in the middle of a relatively gentle climbing turn...wing fluttered down in about 3 seperate peices and the fuse in six..too much damage over the years and too many repairs done by me when the skill set was just too green finally took their toll. I was impressive though![X(]
The other was a failed battery connector...plane was at WOT approaching the top of a loop. First clue was it didn't respond to the throttle reduction first at the top, or any other input after that as it headed straight down to the dirt. Took about 2 1/2 seconds to scream into the ground, Had time to turn the TX off/on and look behind me to see if anyone else was seeing what I was seeing. ( No, it wasn't my well trusted DX7 in that plane...good ol' FM PCM) Was able to positively determine that there was a dead spot when the Batt to Switch harness connector was pushed up tight. Wish now I had upgraded that one to my new TX sooner

Sometimes it's a part of the hobby, but never my mindset to just EXPECT to crash. I always expect everyting to go back into the shed the same way it came out...it usually does.:D

RE: Crashing - a part of the hobby?
 

I certainly don't expect to crash, I log my flights and this was helpful recently, I crashed and was able to see that I'd flown 85 times previously without crashing. Then another 15 flights I crashed a different plane. Sigh.

RE: Crashing - a part of the hobby?
 

Actually you both have valid points.
Physiological depth perception is only good out to 15-20 ft. That's about how far our binocular vision with a spread of 3'' can distinguish overlay effect.

Compensatory depth perception is good to whatever distance an individual is practiced at using it. That's where learned skills and experience come together with "The human eyes and brain...the best ballistic computer known" to interpret info based on experience to judge distances and relative speeds of objects on an oblique , parallel or perpendicular course based on relative size of a known object and how fast it is growing or shrinking as well as it's relation to other known objects.

RE: Crashing - a part of the hobby?
 

Crashing is not part of the this HOBBY...It would be like real sport pilots or private pilots saying that crashing is part of their hobby with flying their planes. I personally try my best not to crash my planes and do not live by the saying crashing is part of the hobby...What if you were going to fly with a friend in his Cessna 152 and while flying he says well you know crashing is part of this hobby sooooo I hope you said your prayers today.

I have had Four crashes in the 6 years I have been flying and all but 1 could have been prevented.

1. My antenna wire broke off ( about a inch or two) and I still flew it, as soon as I took off I lost control of it and it went full speed into the ground. (COX utlimate 40)
2. Doing a nose dive spin and did not realize how close I was to the tree line and went straight down in the trees. (Seagull Edge 540)
3. installed a saito 100 in my 1st Great Planes Gee Bee, the engine was not enough for the plane. On take off it stalled and noised dived into the ground. ( Great Planes Gee Bee)
4. Servo went out on my Heli, crash full head speed into the runway. (Century Hawk Pro 30)

I use to fly with a man that would come out to the field every weekend and crash his plane or have to fix something on it. Every time something happens he says "Oh well crashing is part of the hobby", I just look at him and just laugh in my head.

Yes, we are flying airplanes and every flight will not be perfect but I am firm believer that crashing is not part of the hobby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RE: Crashing - a part of the hobby?
 

I laughed when I read this. Like I said, I learned to fly without ever really crashing. But after flying solo for a while, and then flying inverted in big ovals "2 mistakes high", I thought, hey, I can do this 10' over the deck easy enough.......NOT. I had one wing dip, freaked out, and pulled up. Its funny to me now. Its just funny that when you crash, even though I build almost everything I fly (very few ARF's), I think my ego is damaged as much as my plane. The "walk of shame" to pick up the pieces is the worst.......making excuses the whole time. Although, all crashes have been dumb thumbs for me, but its still funny how everyone has the "but I am sure that I... " speech as they make their way to the carnage left on the field. I guess its just human nature to explain away our mistakes. Although, as I have matured over the years, now I just admit the pilot error, that way I feel the burden of trying to explain it away is gone. I just rip the band-aid off and get it over with :-)

Dave

RE: Crashing - a part of the hobby?
 

Can't do it bud, all your post are too "wordy" for me. Short answer is the obvious one ,let me save ya some time,

YES!

RE: Crashing - a part of the hobby?
 

I,ve been flying for about 10 yrs. now I,ve never crashed yet. But my thumbs have sure cost me a few dollars.:)

RE: Crashing - a part of the hobby?
 

It is fascinating how there are rather strong opposing views on this subject. I think this post really brings another point up. Do real sport pilots believe that crashing is part of what they do? I am guessing some will remind us that RC flying is a hobby and real sport flying is not a hobby to avoid addressing the original issue. It is hard to compare the two since a pilot is sitting inside the real planes, but certainly there is some degree of comparison we can use.

RE: Crashing - a part of the hobby?
 

I certainly understand. I was being careful to make sure I included all the info. Sometimes it helps so others don't have to ask all the questions about this or that and make the thread extra long. Sort of a 'get it done in one or two post instead of 500' if you know what I mean :D

RE: Crashing - a part of the hobby?
 

How often do you fly and do you over power and fly some of your planes to the "max?" I know I do. 4 crashes in 6 years is very good and I was wondering about your flying habits. There are guys at our club that crash more than others and it really does not seem to have anything to do with whether they are doing a lot of loops, rolls, flat spins, etc., or just flying around the field in a normal pattern.

I think more of it is pre-flight checks and dealing with adverse conditions. Some of these adverse conditions are self-implemented like approaching the runway in choppy crosswinds not considering the best approach beforehand. This has happened to me a couple of times and after all was said and done I knew deep down that if I had of went around and adjusted for the crosswind I would have brought my plane down in one piece. Even though I would have liked to have said, 'it was the wind that caused it and no fault of my own.'

I also know with certainty that I do not do enough pre-flight checks so I have built in more risk. I do check my batteries frequently and rarely ever check anything else so my risk level is much higher than someone that does. No one to blame here, just my habits that need to change.

RE: Crashing - a part of the hobby?
 

How many times have we known in hindsight that we could have done something different and avoided a crash?

For me, I would say this is a high percentage of my crashes. If I would have simply done this or that I would have saved some repair time and went home from a good day's flying.

I can remember off-hand five mis-haps that would have spared some epoxy and CA if I would have done differently. Two were cartwheels and three were dead sticks. The cartwheels could have been avoided had I just did a simple fly around for another approach and the dead sticks would have had greater possibility of safe landing had I been higher while testing out the new plane. I just did not allow for enough mistake room - pilot error.

I do not believe crashing was acceptable in these five situations. They all could have been avoided with better judgment. A six crash I could not avoid due to mechanical failure. The metal came out of poor quality elevator and simply could not do anything. I did the best I could with the controls I had and I did repair it and still flying it today (about 125-150 flights). All this in a year and a half.

RE: Crashing - a part of the hobby?
 

An interesting philosophical question. My position is yes, you will crash eventually if you push the flight envelope and/or challenge the conditions far enough. I have 'retired' many planes just due to age and wear and tear. Equipment doesn't last forever. Does that mean I never 'crashed' these planes? No. They were repaired somewhat during the course of their 'lives'.

You mentioned full-scale pilots and their attitude. I was one for many years. Once you take control of an aircraft you are 'Pilot in Command'. The responsibility is ALL yours. That's why you do a pre-flight inspection. Is everything working? What about the weather? Do you have a flightplan? How do you feel? Are you tuned into the environment or situation? The list goes on and on. But with models, keep in mind you are not only the pilot, you are the mechanic, the FAA flite inspector and the BUILDER. You are responsible for everything. I keep my mouth shut when I hear 'It was a glitch' or "Must have been a bad servo'. OK, you didn't build the servo. But you installed it. Was it binding? Did you check it? Most importantly, did you EVER see a hint of the problem before (and perhaps ignore it)? Same with 'radio problems'. Was the Tx battery 27 years old? Did it not take a full charge maybe? Did you change a setting? That's why I believe 99.2% of crashes are 'pilot error'. Even in a midair, somebody made a mistake even if it wasn't you!

Don't get the flite simulator mentality of merely pushing the 'reset button'. If you nose over that warbird but everyting looks OK, would that still be the case with a full sized aircraft on a carrier landing? Is simply scraping a wingtip a big deal on say a B-17? How about bending the nosewheel on your Cessna 172? Minor? Forgettable? I don't think so. Asses the problem objectively and you'll become a better Pilot in Command. Remember, a 'crash' is not only a smoking hole in the ground.

RE: Crashing - a part of the hobby?
 

If I didnt like the risk of a crash every time I take off, I would have a lot of Hanger Queens...

Dumb thumbs or showing off is my main problem..Funny thing is My young son has crashed a couple of times..

Landing is my enemy bounce bounce bounce....

RE: Crashing - a part of the hobby?
 

All model airplanes have an expiration date, hopefully this will be only when you retire them or sell them...however
"Dumb Thumbs" can happen even to experienced pilots.
There are some things you can do however to minimize/eliminate a lot of crashes..and I am speaking as a turbine flyer... but these will apply to any of the larger, faster, heavier planes (not foamies etc)
these are:
1. Use rendunt battery supplies such as Duralite Gemini/Powerbox or Smart fly etc. Merely having 2 Rx batteries on board WILL eliminate some nasty ground enders. AND check the state of your batteries before every flight with a <u>load</u> meter such as the Duralite one, Futaba makes one and there are several others.. this is really critical if you only have 1 battery for the rx! IF you must use 1 rx battery, make it a big one such as 1500 mah or more (more is better)

2. Tie all permanent servo connectors inside the plane with dental floss or use a good servo connector lock on them. AND on the ones you typically connect/disconnect (ailerons etc)  use good quality connector locks ALWAYS!

3. Do a ground range check per your radios manufacturers instructions ev time you go to the field

4.Use if possible the better quality servos. I have found the Futaba <u>Brushless</u> series to be extermenly reliable and rugged

RE: Crashing - a part of the hobby?
 

Hi Luchnia
You have had all types of comments in answer to your observation. Some of them have been very rude. The rude ones reflect more about that individual than about your observations. I support you 100%. Now please do me a courtesy: Please seek out my comments and read them till you feel you understand them. I feel strongly that crashing is part of our hobby, and give reasons to support that. I arrived at that conclusion after having literally hundreds of crashes over my 38 years in R/C flying, and I analyze every one of my crashes till I can conclude something. These reasons are physically valid. They are based on physics, trigonometry, geometry, and the limits of the human body/brain. Your observation might be more correct if it asked "How do we manage to crash so few times".

RE: Crashing - a part of the hobby?
 

Wow, me being a four years in the hobby I have had some wrecks. New guys qualify it only gives us the permission to fly alone, with out a teachers, and lets us learn or not learn on our own, and it's no different when we all got our driver's liecence, so qualifing, doesn't make a pilot.

I am a mechanic by trade and tend to be carefull about my set up, charged battery, sticks match plane, engine tuned proper, so pre flight is a must and must be tought to new members. I have seen the most experienced guys do some admittedly, dumb things. I saw a guy forget a servo horn screw on a new build, he was able to land on one aileron, which is a testiment to his ability and yet he said, I messed up. I also saw a guy dial in some expo into a radio after a few flights, accidentally reversed ailerons, again he knew the was a problem and flew the plane back. Un fortuatly for him, on the last 200 ft of final a puff of wind flared up on wing and his natural reaction was not the correct one, plane went strait in.

Crashing is a part of it, but doesn't have to be. I flew my Lazy Ace on Sat, and do what the plane is meant to do, so no problems there, although on pre flight, found three wing strut nuts gone and and some loose, from last Sunday's flight. With a pre flight it got to see another day of safe and fun flying. I 've seen the best crash too. it is the risk accociated with the hobby. One of theold guys at the clubs said, never get attached to a airplane.

RE: Crashing - a part of the hobby?
 

The guys who fly and NEVER crash are the bench warmers who wait for perfect days to fly and they usually fly low risk airplanes. Jet flyers and guys who fly every day will crash on occasion. They learn from the crash and move on. i spend many hours going through every crash trying to figure out why it crashed so I don't do it again. After about 20,000 flights I just learned a new fault I have, which is normally compensated for with more power. When you knife edge low, and raise high alpha for reduced speed, then drop flat you will instantly stall unless you either power out before dropping flat or you drop the nose. Watch the guys that do this manuever - they normally power out of this manuever or do it fast.

I teach alot of guys to fly. They RARELY crash. One guy went his first two years flying about 5 days a week and although he crashed five times before he came out to fly with us, he hadn't crashed for two years. We help each other:
1) Check controls on EVERY flight. Not every day - EVERY FLIGHT. Say it out loud - "Left Aileron", "Right Aileron", Up, Down, Rudder left, Rudder right. We saved a crash MANY times doing this. Sometimes it's a broken servo, rarely reversed setup and always a "Oh I just swapped out that servo I thought it would work identical to the old one", or "I just checked it at home - oh I must have reversed the wrong channel".
2) Wind is not had to fly in - but GUSTY wind can be very difficult. Have the right plane for the flying conditions.
3) Steer 100% of the time. Some guys won't stear when they land and level the wings to the ground. Once they know it - they fix it.
4) NEVER give up on an airplane. These guys will never learn to fly in anything but 0 wind days. Their brain goes blank the last few seconds of landing and they nose over or pound it in. I tell them fight or flee is a normal human reaction but if you want to survive most tough cases - get pissed and fight - full throttle to get out of trouble in many cases.
5) Most important. You teach yourself through your life to be less sensitive to Noise, The trigger that you are full - fatty ;) you have to be sensitive to every signal your plane gives you. A waiver of the wings at slow speed is a prelude to a stall - increase power,
6) Relax when you fly - if you are tense you are not experienced enough to fly the plane you are trying to fly - put it away until you are, practice touch and goes - your landings on calm days must be perfect - don't satisfy for just getting it down. Progress through the hobby with the right plane. Some guys come out with one of those crappy trainers some kid at a hobby shop recommended - many are inappropriate - especially the really cheap ones. A good cub, slowstick, Wing Dragon. When learning your instructor should tell you it is impossible to crash since he will make sure it can't happen. This makes you calmer - I let newbies fly my trainer and will buddy box them but normally just keep them high and take back transmitter below 2 mistakes high. A crash costs them nothing - but shouldn't happen.
7) Building skills come with time - but listen to guys when they tell you to improve a servo or some re-enforcement. But since everyone has a comment and some know crap - choose your mentors. It doesn't hurt to use high torque servos. I kept warning two guys I fly with that went to 100+ mph setups. You have to have 35+ oz/in torque servos - you are going to crash. They both crashed on the same day due to their 20 oz/in servos breraking - on a high speed pull out.

Funny - that some think guys flying are showing off when they do something they feel is risky. It ain't risky if you can do it 100 times in a row without crashing. We all have different skills - doing something you don't know how to do in front of someone - just stupid. I tell the guys - when you go to funflys - fly like you always do, if you are good you will impress people. If not - you at least are out to enjoy flying. I am usually shocked when someone comes up to me and says "That was awesome". I love it - but I never expect it. Do something stupid and risky to show off - is ridiculous. A good indicator of showing off is a crash. Fly to the level of you skill and practice new skills. Flying in Wind is a skill you have to develop.

Vinnie

Vinnie