MATRIX BRUSHLESS???
 

So I was thinking, what if I were to gut my matrix, and replace all the nitro stuff with electronics? Maybe someone can help me, What size motor and speed control,etc would I need to attain say 50 mph? I saw one in a mag, 52 mph, and it's a production model Fine Design I think. and before anyone says just buy the production model, this is something that I want to do as a past-time. Winter's long here in Canada. I'm naturally going to wait till the NX-26 is shot though, but I'd like to get a head start on the parts I'll need, imagine it will be fairly pricy.
The reason I want to do this is simply to see if I can , and secondly to have a cleaner buggy at the end of the day, plus it would be fun to smoke my buds in thier nitro truggies. [:@] The fact that its quiet means I can run it almost anywhere without bothering anyone too. If I dont like it I'll just put it back the way it is, and sell the electrics to some lucky bud on RCU., or E bay. If anyone has any objections or comments, or concerns, please feel free to speak up, all info will be greatly appreciated, GOOD OR BAD!;)

RE: MATRIX BRUSHLESS???
 

btw this was my buggy after running on pavement pretty dirty. Here it is cleaned up. and also with truggy wheels.

Maybe someone can help me with another prob., my car runs good when it revs but it has no low end, seems to run rich, but when I lean it out it wont run, stalls when the revs go up.[&o] Don't know if I should adjust hs needle, ls needle, or all of them, please help.


Ps its really fast when it does hit speed, especially when it has truggy wheels.

RE: MATRIX BRUSHLESS???
 

thats cause its way over geared from the truggy wheels.

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It runs that way with either set of wheels though.

RE: MATRIX BRUSHLESS???
 

I have done several elcetric conversions. It is the best way to go. I am just chomping at the bit for when brushless 1/8 scale racing starts happining.

I am prepairing to make a refit kit that should work on almost all 1/8 buggies. It will mount at the original mount holes that held the nitro motor. I am desigining it around a RD Logics SHO Pro but I have several buggies and I will be very universal. The only one I could possabilly see a real probelm with is the Losi Eight. That is because of the centeral location of the motor. But thid might be nothing. I will see.

As far as electronics, Man buy the best you can afford. In 1/8 it is vital that you capitalize on makeing it as light as possable while keeping the power up. Neu or Plettenberg motors are the best hands down. They are frightenly expensive though. Now the top line Lehiners and the "C" series from Hacker are very good and not as expensive. Dont be fooled by the inexpensive Lehiners and Hackers (anything but hte "C" series) they are inferior and not near as strong as the good ones. Not all Lehiners and Hackers are made in Germany any longer. THe Neu are American made and the Plettenbergs are German. Now here is the one drawback useing these motors, their efficiency. The reason this is a problem is that they will destroy anything but top line, over built controllers. If you get a Feiago 8XL or so you will be able to run it on a Mamba Max and it will be fairly good. But you put the Mamba Max on a high efficiency motor and the tempertures will go through the roof And the controller will thermal. I have been there and done it. Also If at all possable continue to use the servo for brakeing. The reason here is that during brakeing your amp draw will go off the chart. 150 amps is easy under breaking. During the testing on Mini T's with Castles Mamba 25 brushless system we were blown away with the 120 amp and higher peaks during brakeing on a Mini T. I have seen 200 plus amps on some of my really extreem set ups. Also another way to lower your amp draw is going to be higher voltage. Run 4 cell lipos or more. 5 and 6 cell lipos run like scared rabbits. You will still go very fast with 11 volts but you better buy the hottest one you can. You will need to be able to supply continous power at the minium of 1.25 times your controllers max. Generally 1.5 times is safe and 1.75 to 2 times is ideal.

I hope this helps you out and if you want anything else let me know. I will monitor this thread.

RE: MATRIX BRUSHLESS???
 

Thanx alot RURC that was a mouthful I must say, I havent even heard of those names before, oh well I am a newby still.

I dont really understand what you mean by running 1.25 -2 times the controllers max?, this sounds pretty complicated.

btw nice pic of the women, is it in your gallery?

RE: MATRIX BRUSHLESS???
 

I do a lot of testing for brushless and battery companies so I get to see it all.

What I mean by 1.25 to 2 times a controllers max is like this.....
If you have a controller (electronic speed control for the motor) that is rated at 100 amps continous your battery set up needs to be able to output a minium of 125 amps in burst for more than 5 seconds. To really cover your butt 150 amps is very good and 200 amps would be the optimum. Amperage is one of the key things in large scale electric. A BK 9920 Warrior or 12020 BK Warrior controller would be a good match for your project. They are a 99 and 120 amp controller. THe Castle Creations Mamba Max is rated at 100 amps but is too efficient for 1/8 scale work. Seeing th at you are working on this over the winter I suggest that you wait to get your speed control till you plan to drive it because the Mamba Manster Max should be out and it will be the best. It is testing at 200 amps right now continous. If it is not available get the BK. I use tham a lot and they are great.

Not in my gallery. My wife dose not like me useing it foe anything but my screen saver (at work) or a avatar. She is the tall one on the right. Her and Tatonyia did modeling when we lived in Germany. She is auctually nude in that. The flag is painted on their bodies. That was about 12 years ago and one child.

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Daaaaaaaaaaaaaamn!!!!!!!!!! way to go !! that's really your wife? hope I didnt offend you for asking about pic.
anyway thanx for info going to bed now.

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No offence intended none taken. She only did 2 oe 3 nude modeling jobs and she dose not want them to be found by our 7 year old son. She dose not want to explain it to him. He thinks that she is wearing a jumpsuit in those photos.

RE: MATRIX BRUSHLESS???
 

Hi RURC been pretty busy at work , I own a pub in NB. canada, I was wondering if it would be possible to get a copy of that photo, it would be a great addition to my miniature car collection, I even have the Hot Wheels Ferrari collection. I also have posters of cars and women. Anyway if you could send me a copy I would appreciate it, and if not that's OK too I'll understand, I also have a very beautiful wife, and I don't think I'd like to share her with everyone.

Also I think I might do like you said and wait for the Mamba Monster Max to arrive, It sounds pretty good.

By the way this is my son getting a head start in RC, and Me my wife and my son Terrry on hios first B-day.

RE: MATRIX BRUSHLESS???
 

Dirthead,

I am also working on a Cen Matrix Electric conversion. I have already done one 1/8 buggy (cheap ofna just for bashing), a revo, emaxx, Mamoth st, LST and XTM XLB Buggy. The Matrix is my winter project and the intention is to start racing it in the spring against the nitros at the local track.

I am planning on using a Quark 125B Monster Pro ESC and a Neu 1512/2.5D on 5s Flightpower 4300mah Lipos. But I may go with the Lehner 1940/8 instead of the neu. Still have to decide. Both are great motors so I really can't go wrong I guess. My suspicion is I will need to run it on only 4s while on the track. 5s will probably be way to fast for any track.:D

I will be eliminating the shift/brake servo and using the electronic motor braking. I like the feel of the electronic brakes much better anyway, and as long as you can keep the speed control cool, you will have no issues. I understand the folks that like to keep the mechanical brakes to lessen the amp spikes from electronic braking, but on 1/8 buggy, there is not much room to work with so you have to make choices on what stays and how its layed out overall. I have done it both ways in the past and I found that as long as you use an adequate esc there shouldn't be any issues. Besides that you can get rid of the servo and half of the radio tray and save the weight. Fitting batteries into these things and keeping some kind of balance is the trick. I would not recommend mounting battery packs on the plastic mud guards as I have seen many do. Especially if you are running lipo. They would be to susceptible to getting damaged there IMO. Keep them inboard of the aluminum chassis of you can. Plus this gives you a more concentrated center of mass to keep the handling solid.

My plan is to get some extended center drive shafts, (I'm hoping the shafts from the wheel CVDs from the matrix truggy when its released in a few weeks are going to work, If not I'll have to get custom) and move the center diff a little farther off center. Mount the motor off the the side with less room. Basically right at the edge of the aluminum chassis and then I will be able to mount a single 5s lipo pack much closer to the center of the chassis. I wont get it perfectly centered, but motor and servo on the other side should offset the weight and still wind up with a pretty balance weight distribution. After that the rest is easy. Just figure out a way to mount the speed control and the rx and you are in business.

Like someone mentioned above. Higher voltage is better. the higher the voltage you use to lower the amp draw. But you have to balance this with the weight and size of the battery(s). Dont do it on the cheap. These conversions are not cheap, and the quality components are most definitely pricey, but worth it. If you try and do it on the cheap you will not have a reliable system. I learned this the hard way on my first one or 2 attempts at brushless conversions.

If you want to read allot about these brushless conversions, there are a bunch of them over on rc-monster.com forums. Along with a ton of people over there that really know there stuff when it comes to brushess systems. Good luck. and post some pictures to this thread when you finish it. I'm always interested to see how other tackle the same problem I am working on.

J

RE: MATRIX BRUSHLESS???
 

Dirt,

xxx4 is right. Dont skimp. The Quark , while nice is scary expensive. I have one of them and I like it but damn the money. I would look at the 150 amp BK. Strong and clean and made in Germany not Korea. Costs about the same as the 125 Quark but bigger and stronger. This is what I am most likely going to be useing in my latest 1/8 project.

xxx4.,
If you use the Neu motor you will best the best results from the Quark controller if you set it for outrunner motor. This is for multi pole motors and the Neu is 6 pole. I suggest you look at the 2230 line of Lehiner motors. Big power. Really big power. Also them you are not tied to the Quark controller.


Overall when I see 200 amps at 4 cell lipo, 14 volts, I see the potential for serious damage to equipment. That is why I try to suggest that people leave in the mechnical brake at times. This will allow those that at least want to do a project like this to work it without starting out with $300 plus in just a controller.

RE: MATRIX BRUSHLESS???
 

Wow.... 200 amps. In a 1/8 buggy setup!!! In the 1/8 I have now I am seeing peak spikes of 125A and level full throttle of 65A(using eagletree) No where near 200A. I am using the Quark and a Lehner 1940/7 in it on 5s. The lipo voltage never drops below 3.4 volts per cell so its not battery limited. For track purposes I run it on 3s just to keep it under controll (35-40mph). 5s is getting it over 60mph. No need for that anywhere but goofing off on some speed runs. I dont even see 200 amp spikes in my heavier monster trucks.

Ive been doing this a while and I actaully have had many types of controllers, Quark, Mamba Max, BK, MGM, had a Shutlz. Shultz are just fire starters.. Avoid them. Way to expensive and when they burn up, which they always do, they tell you it was a loose connection and its not covered under waranty. I'll never own a shultz again. The Quark is the best one IMO. Made in Korea or not, the service they offer is far superior to BK. If the german controller needs service, you can send it germany and wait for months. Quark has a service center in California that turns service requests areound in a matter of days. Not that the BK stuff isnt good. I have a 7020, 9920 and a 12020 from BK. They are ok, but nothing special. The Quark is WAY smoother in startup than the BK controllers ever will be and it can run just about any motor available. The other downfall of the BK is that they don't run the Neu motors at all. They are designed for 2 pole motors and that is it. They run the Lehners, Feigaos, Wanders and any other 2-pole motor, but ONLY 2 pole motors.

The 150A BK controller is more expensive than the Quark! As far as what I have seen in pricing (and have paid) the Quark125B is $275-280, a BK 120A (12020) is $400 and the BK 99A conrioller (9920) is $200. Not sure why you think te Quark is so scary expensive in relation to these others. For my money, the quark is the highest quality most versital controller available now for large scall applications.

Lets face it... Brushless is scary expensive to do it right.

As far as motors go, Neu and Lehner are the best. Hacker and some of the others are middle tier and the Feigao, Wander and nemisis are all good motors but no where near the quality and efficency of the Neu and Lehner. You cnat go wrong with either. Just make sure you get a controller that will work with whatever you choose.

Actually there is a Xmas sale going on on the BK controllers right now.
These are the best prices I have ever seen on these 2 controllers.
http://www.rc-monster.com/proddetail...K12020W&cat=21
http://www.rc-monster.com/proddetail...od=9920warrior


Not sure what kind of budget you are on but:

For an nice starter setup in a 1/8 buggy you could always just use the BK 9920 and a Feigao 540C 8xl or 9xl motor. This will get you in the game for under $240 with the sale I listed above on the BK controllers. (you will still need batteries) I have run this setup in the past very sucessfully on larger/heavier vehicles than a 1/8 buggy and had no issues with them at all. Even using the motor brakes. You just have to pay attention to motor and controller heat untill you get the gearing figured out properly. Once they are geared right this is a VERY powerfull setup for less than the price of a Novak HV.

But I would still recomend the Quark/Nue or Quark/Lehner combo if you are planning on taking this to the track at all. Bashing is one thing, but if you plan to race you will need the better equipment.

RE: MATRIX BRUSHLESS???
 

Thanx for all the info guys, it's all getting a little less cofusing now, and thanx for the links those are some really good prices xxx. I may be doing this conversion after-all.

RE: MATRIX BRUSHLESS???
 

BTW RURC.... Are you sure about the Neu motors being 6 pole. The way I understnd it the Neu 15xx series motors are 4 pole not 6.

And a 2230!!! In a buggy!!!! [X(] I already can tear up a drivetrain using a 1940 or 1950 Lehner motor. A 2230 would require one heck of a strong drive train. I also find that I cant even use the power of a 19xx Lehner or 15xx Neu to its fullest potential. It boils down to traction. The tires can only transmit so much power to the ground before they break loose. And I can already break them loose on command. For racing in a 1/8 buggy a 1940 is PLENTY of power. You could even get a really nice lightweight buggy with a ton more snap than nitro using a Lehner 1930. A 2230 just doesnt seem practical IMO.

I would sure like to see it though!:D

Maybee in a converted Savage or Mamoth or something heavy like that a 22series motor might make more sense.

RE: MATRIX BRUSHLESS???
 

I am positive that it is 4 pole. Damn fat fingers. Has anyone found me a good voice to text program yet?
The 2230 is a fantastic motor. It has so much torque that yo could almost pull stumps out with it. We had it in a 1/8 Mugan for about a week then it went into a 1/5 buggy. It is now going in a LST2 conversion. We are going to try the stump pulling. I never had it tear up anything but we will see soon.

Also the Eagle Tree dose not have the sampeling rate to show all the peaks you hit. On the test bench we hit huge numbers then on the road with the eagle tree the numbers never matches up. The guys I worked with and I ended having to design and custom build a logger that would sample to a peico second without putting a o'scope on board with digital storage. I have seen 120 amps on a mini t with a Mamba 25. We never saw those numbers with the eagle. Dont get me weong I love my eagle systems and they are perfect for almost everything. But they still have to wse a low sampeling rate. This way you get a very good avrage. Kind of like looking at a sweep meter vs a digital meter. A DMM is a pain to use to tune a signal generator but a sweep analog meter is great for this.

As much as I like the Lehiners I think the Plettenbergs are better but I do say that the Neu's are the best overall.

I just bought a 15020 for less than the monster sells the 12020 for. I have never had an issue with Schulze's. I had the big 300 amp one in a 1/8 scale hydroplane I built for a racer. That thing was nuts. But eeven the small ones I still have have been trouble free. They suck for programming and they are nuts expensive. I am sorry you had bad luck with them.

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Do any of you have pics of your conversions, if you do I'd love to see them. I'd get a better idea of how to set up.
My new issue of RC Mag has a motor system from novak, HV 4.5, don't know the specs though, they say a K I 777 hit 67 mph with it.
As for reliability I couldn't say.
Here's a friend of mine on his way to a 50+ ft. jump, in a thunder tiger st-1

RE: MATRIX BRUSHLESS???
 

Dirthead,
Im on the road for work right now. I'll see if I can get pictures posted up this weekend when I get home. Not sure what I have of all of them, but I can at least still snap a couple of the ones I still have.

As far as the Novak 4.5, I can make just about any of my conversions go fast, its making them go that fast without overheating them. My goal when doing a conversion is to build a truck that is going to be able to be run at a constant high level of performance and not have heat issues. Gearing a truck up for one or 2 speed runs is not impressive to me if you cant do it without stopping to ccool down. Any speed numbers I give are only if I can run an entire pack through non stop.

RCRU,
Do tell... Where did you get the 15050 for that kind of price. You have me very interested!! I was actually in the market for another controller and was thinking about going for the 12020 I listed abouve. That is the best price I have ever seen on them. PM me.

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http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_25...tm.htm#2583194

[8D]

RE: MATRIX BRUSHLESS???
 

thanx xxx, here's another friend gettin some sick air.

RE: MATRIX BRUSHLESS???
 

I cant give all me secrets out. It is like a I scratch your back you scratch mine deal.

RE: MATRIX BRUSHLESS???
 

Dirthead,

Here are a few pictures of my Matrix conversion in its current partially finished state. This should give you an idea of how I am going to lay mine out. I think I am going to move the center diff a little farter over to the side with the motor mount so I can move the battery closer to the centerline of the buggy. The final battery position will probably be slightly farther forward also. Nothing is final yet, so the wires look like a total mess and there are no battery hold downs or a bunch of other things that need to be done before its finished. But it should at least give you an idea of what I'm thinking for it.

Also here is a link to another nice buggy conversion. http://www.rc-monster.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4689


http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...z/CIMG1577.jpg
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...z/CIMG1578.jpg
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...z/CIMG1579.jpg
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...z/CIMG1580.jpg
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...z/CIMG1581.jpg

RE: MATRIX BRUSHLESS???
 

XXX- It looks fine. One question do you have another speed control to use? As a word of advice the Mamba Max will not handle 5 cell lipo. I will try to find the photo of the result. I did it when I was testing for Castle. 4 works but 5 resulted in a cloud of smoke. Unless they havechanged the unit 5 cell is too much.

RE: MATRIX BRUSHLESS???
 

try finedesignrc.com cool stuff

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Long term plan is not to use the mamba max. I have a few differet controllers here that may go in. (have a BK 12020 and a Quark 125B on the shelf right now) I am just doing a little experimenting with this conversion. I am testing the mamba max to see what it can do. I have talked to a few people that are sucessfuly using it on 5s and even talked to CC at the iHobby show in chicago and was told(unofficially) that with an efficient motor it would be able to run 5s. And if it doesn't.... Its only a $50 fee to repair/replace it no matter what, so the risk is not really that big. I would like to hear about your experience with the Mamba Max on 5s. What motor were you running, what vehicle, what gearing, how much did the setup weigh? Any idea of how many amps your were pulling? Did it run ok for a while then pop, or did it pop right away?

This will probably not be the final motor I use either, but I have been wanting to test one of these for quite a while and this seemed like it could be a good application. Its a Cyclon brushless outrunner motor. It not like a conventional outrunner that is limited to 10K rpm or so, it has a rpm limit all the way up to 40K rpm. I havent exacty figured out what the wiring diference is but from what I have been able to figure out its setup so it it acts like a high pole count motor, but the controller sees it like a 4 pole motor, which allows it to run at a much higher rpm because you dont run into the controller frequency limits. The result they claim is the highest power to weight ratio available anywhere. Anyway, its interesting enought that I wanted to play with one to see what they can do. I'm not really sure what to expect, the only outrunner experience i have is in a crawler application, not a high speed application so I guess we will see.

The long term plan for this conversion will be a Lehner 1940/7 that I have with a Quark125 or BK 12020. A 1940/7 is a pretty hot motor for 5s, so 5s will be bashing setup and 4s will be racing setup.

Just my experience.... But I have not had a good experience with that guy. I wouldn't recomend him.