zeo 1

many manufacturers send in there plans to these Chinese makers for a few reason mainly because its far cheaper for the us to send other countries the plans/ scus and have them assemble the parts in mass quantity for a lower price then having another us co make them so where am i getting this at ? well a Chinese based company named hsp makes ALOT of the parts for many of our beloved manufacturers
hpi , ofna , jam min ,and even mug an mass produce allot of parts in china that is why you will find the hsp baja clone and the red cat clone hpi did not build it themselves they sent the plans to hsp for many of there parts that is why if you buy a hsp bjer / baja clone youw ill be able to literally swap all of the parts for the real baja is it wrong for china to sell these ruff made cars you decide this hobby needs cheaper cars and electronics not cheaper made just cheaper so in a way i support the chna based cars seeing how many of them are actually the result of hpi and major brands sending them the plans in the begin with LOL if you want to stop the clones don't send the plans over seas to have it built but then this will also bring the prices even higher case in point hsp baja 600 to 900 us bucks
hpis 800 to 1500 bucks guess what your paying for ? a name and also the warranty but this isnt necessarily a bad thing something breaks send the car in get a new one free just about but realize this ... allot of the Chinese cars are in fact our beloved cars we drive every day a few exceptions include the 1/10 scale exceed redcat and nanda those are all thes ame Carrier and there for stand alone

but if you want to beat the clones don't send the plans to china or whomever but also expect to pay far more for a product that really is not worth as much as they demand

zeo 1

another great thing is alot of the china based companies exceed rc  and himoto are now making really good 1/8s do to the fact that they can sell them cheaper and both now have there own self built cars  exceed has its mad series / except the mad beast
mad fire mad warrior mad storm are all exceed only  i tried for hours to find another buggy from another china based company that looked like my mad fire and have not found anything at all that looks like it , redcat has there blackout  back draft buggies
1/8 scale basher buggy with 2 speed tranny is kinda nice  but not made to race
exceed mad fire  jam min style design except for e clips  race and bash style buggy 

Druss

I understand what you're saying but have to disagree on some points.

First, they did not develop the products they are copying so what your suggesting is that it's ok to take someone elses intellectual information and make a profit on it. The companies spend money in research and development in order to come up with their vehicles, if everyone bought clones then who's going to develop the next generation of vehicles? China? They are great at cloning but not so great at research and development.

Quality is another issue, the quality controls that are required by US manufacturers are much higher than those for copies. The plastics are also cheaper. I know a lot of you guys think that plastic is just plastic and you're wrong. I work in the plastics industry and we have some of our products made in China, quality control is ALWAYS an issue and we have to spend a substantial amount of money spot testing the products that come in. We KNOW the plant we use in China makes low quality knock offs, without the tolerance control we require. We also know they use a higher percentage of recycled resins in their products which ends up with a lower strength material.

So, part of the higher cost of the "real" products are the testing, the loss of rejecting those products that don't meet the testing, the use of higher quality non recycled plastics, the research, developement and engineering and yes the warranty and marketing.

The amount of money RC companies spend on advertising and promoting their products is large and keeps the hobby going. Look at the companies that sponser SC racing as an example.

Don't ever make the mistake of thinking that just because it's the same plant that makes the copies that you're getting the same product.

If you want to see innovation and quality in this hobby die then keep buyng clones....

kaiser01

i have always been a fan of chinese goods. most of the time the quality is on par with what we are used to because, like you said, they make most stuff anyway.

in rc there are some good clones and bad clones, i would stay away from tamiya clones because tamiya doesn't outsource, all their stuff is made in japan.
i have seen some really bad tamiya clones.

in other industries china is very competitive. their rc's are only getting better.

chinese rc's are perfect for people who have been around and know what they are buying, unfortunately most buyers of chinese rc are noobs. clones are not very noob friendly.

druss makes a good point though, look at the chinese clones, see how shiney the plastic is? that means there's little or no carbon content.

zeo 1

understood on that matter quality control is an issue china has and for the most part still sucks at figuring out that plastic has different strengths tolerances and heat ratings plastic isn't all the same i know that for a fact you can definitely tell if something is weak in plastic
also in metal integy is the worst after market co on the rc market there crawler is a pos

but what i simply really meaning here is that most companies at least in the rc world send there parts to china to be made but they do in fact test um for weakness the main thing to understand is that so many things that we have in this hobby are china based i think traxxas is even at that point its to costly to make the parts in the us and im betting you know what i mean by parts being cheaper to ship over seas to have made vs us made

zeo 1

again not all chinese cars are ****ty case in point exceeds mad fire mad storma nd mad warrior are very capable racers and great beginner cars there engines are made by a taiwan based comapny called gotech and boy youw ill hear nothing but great things about gotech great engines at a great price samea s sh
now then the crap clones do exist tamya clones are awful that is a definite fact as well as all the 1/10s that redcat and exced priduce there ok but dont get all siked over them i love my forza but no way will i put it against a thunder tiger tamahawk however my 1/8th mad fire i will put it against many name brands and have guy down the streets got a jammin buggy not sure which one he drove my buggy and fell in love with it

zeo 1

also no i didnt say that hsp actually desgined it , actually hpi designed the baja themselves however they sent the plans to china to have all there parts made and sent to hpi for testing but again it was made in china but hpi and all the other manufacturers degined it

zeo 1

but to the chinese companies who clone there parts nad say they built it **** yeah that is wrong  which in fact this is the thing i really hate is that many of them do that  hsp says they designed the bajer or whatever they call it  that is wrong indeed

MTboy

I personaly like the clones for several reasons. Most you can use the big dog company parts for but the upfront cost is way cheaper. Don't see a point in spending $100 more just to get pretty much the same thing and end up hopping up with the same parts. 99% of everyone in here buys after market after buy the RC they want so why buy the top dog when you can get a clone for way less and hop up the same as the name brand.
Also most companies don't need to do R&D when most new trucks are based of a earlier model and it's been shown that threw forums and the web they could save that money, pass it down to the buyers.. Just saying that these big companies are to use to being the best and are now having to look at ways to save money to make there product cheaper. This is good thing.
Another thing I don't really understand is how can you say clone... In everything there is so called clones. If something works then others are going to jump in on it and try to beat you. Works in everything from dirtbikes to cars. Little changes are made to them to make them different. If the platform works then run with it..
Just my .02

zeo 1

exactly traxxas i will throw out there , that god damned revo chassi is already geting to the point it needs replacing same with the maxx they are not moving forward in there designs
clones wont ruin this market as much as many believe as a matter of fact if hoby shops stocked alot of these so called **** brand rcs if there so bad and parts break so easily then they would make a killing traxxas plastic isnt that great it melts its bendy and it breaks ,the revo arms are notoiously weak as is the tmaxx i ruined so many front parts on my maxx do to track use but ok the word clone is just an eye catcher :d
look at the corr short course ruck all the rc companies clone eachother :d in one way or another

zeo 1

hell and after a while alot of these china based rc companies will get enough funding to make there own cars look at red cat and exceed as well as nanda and himoto they all now have there own rc line specific to them oly gripe now is the darn hobbys hops are all bought out by traxxas not in terms of many just in the sense that is all they freakin stock i had an ae monster gt and my damned hobby shop didnt have the bloody parts for it as well as my mini t but when i had my maxx they had all there little parts in bags except the center diff
in a way i support the china companies on the act that we buy and east most of the stuff china makes any ways

zeo 1

and that brngs me tio saying this im actually happy i can get a really great 1/8th scale buggy for 200 bucks that is actyyally ofna quality tough
i run my buggy hard and have not brokena thing :d and guess what its chinese

i8tweety

My Feedback: (11)

The manufacturing facilities that are making "the real deal" for the vehicle "manufacturer" (such as HPI, Mugen, etc.) are not necessarily making or have any affiliation with the facilities pumping out the clones. In fact, I doubt the companies contracted to make the real thing would risk a profitable contract by pumping out counterfeits (if they are unscrupulous, they can simply copy someone else's product without risking their own contracts).

Reverse engineering is tooooooooo easy with today's technology. In about 10 minutes I can scan a physical part into a 3D model and have CNC cutter paths completed. Within a day, I can have aluminum tooling cut (complete with pin slides for screw holes, hinge pins, etc.) and first shots off the mould no later than next day. With a single 3D scanner and a few CNC mills, tooling for any required stamped parts and injection moulded plastic parts would only take a month or so to duplicate in mass quantities.

04DarkShadowGT

Zeo 1, its unbelievable hard to take you seriously when you have the worst spelling and grammar I have seen. Its unbearable to read.

Clones are just that, copies of real products. If you support clones then you support theft. It would be no different than if I was selling copies of CDs and DVDs.

IloveMYxt2

Zoe 1, please for the sake of humanity, use proper grammar. It is so hard to read your stuff.

SAVAGEJIM

Zoe1, all grammar and spelling aside (I actually understand what you are saying), there is a difference from buying a legitimately cloned RC and an illegally cloned RC.

Also, it is illegal to import and sell illicit (illegal clones) products in the US. And RCs are not the only thing that are illegally cloned, just about everything is, designer clothes and purses, cell phones, TVs, and even real full sized cars are being illegally cloned. And they are all illegal in the US and most countries too. Illicit goods are all over. Even all the annoying viagra email spam that fills your email box are all illicit (fake) clones of the real thing.

And moreover, not only is importing and selling illicit goods, RC or whatever else, illegal in the US, in China, it is illegal to make it there too! And china has shut down factories making illicit goods (even illicit RCs) and they will continue to shut down more.

Now, we as the RC consumers seriously need to do our part to protect our hobby from such things and further it in a positive way. What can we do? Whenever a seller sells clones, the first thing we need to do is DEMAND that the seller prove that the clones are legitimately and legally made. I do think there are legitimate cloners who do clone legally and pay proper rights to clone the original, and if you want to buy such a legal clone, than I and most others have no problem with that. By not doing so, not only do we soil our RC hobby, but we (the RC fans) will get the reputation of buying illegal chinese fakes. We do not need such a reputation of being RC pirates (much like there are movie and music pirates who sell illicit copies of movies and CDs in flea markets and fleabay), we need a reputation of being responsible folks so we can further our hobby positively.

Now, there are some chinese companies that are actually DOING everything legitimately; Himoto is one such example. They have some originally designed RCs of their own, and they are not overly expensive either. For such guys who are doing things legitimately and making RCs legally, I have no problems with that at all. It is the illegal cloners who need to go.

Whenever you want to buy a clone, always grill the seller and grill him hard. Make him prove to you that the clones he is selling were all made legally and that they are not illicit. Make sure that his RCs abide ALL laws dealing with that RC, not just American laws, but also Chinese laws. Ask the seller if he is a registered and approved seller of the RC (there are too many fleabay pirates who sell so and so brand of an RC, but in reality, he is not an authorized dealer). Ask him for his dealer's number even and then check the maker's website to verify that he indeed is an authorized seller. This is the first step that we, the RCs fans can do to squeeze out the illicit pirates and promote our RC hobby with a positive appearance.

SAVAGEJIM

Zoe1, let me also add: I know the staunchest clone owners always say that people bash on clones and yet they have not owned one.
But that argument works both ways. Very few clone owners have actually OWNED the real deal RCs themselves so by their own argument, these guys discredit themselves just as badly.

Worse, I have seen just as many lies and bandwagoning from clone owners who make outrageous claims that their clone RCs are superior to the real deal, yet they have never even tried to purchase the real RC.

I am not accusing you of lying and exaggerating by pumping up clones, all I am trying to say that bandwagoning happens on both sides. It is one thing for clone owners to say the name brand fans need to try one before passing judgement, but likewise, the clone owners need to also own a real deal RC too before they can use this argument.

Chris_RC

One thing I would like to add. Do you really think HPI, Losi, or Associated would just hand over their design? The last time I checked, the Redcat's have ZERO in common with the Hyper 9, 8 2.0, or RC8B. The only time I know of someone selling their design is when Losi sold their XX/XX-T design to Duratrax which is now the Evader/Evader ST series of cars.

Buy 2 cars that are supposibly cloned, 1 real and 1 HSP, go through the entire kit and tell me it is the exact same model that uses the exact same parts.

zeo 1

about my grammar , i have an older key board about 5 yrs old that has seen many LAN parties and what not also to point out that i don't see all tow ell ,get cross eyed rather easily :P
but no hpi and other rc manufacturers don't just toss there plans over , they send them to one Chinese manufacturer and have there trucks and car produced in mass
not pumping up the clones , but what im trying to get out there is no matter what you race its all made in china with the exception of tamiya and novarossi
so to call a clone a clone then in reality you would need to call out ae for releasing the monster gt its a t maxx clone

and also to the users just coming on here bashing ones grammar and saying stupid pointless things about that ,, way of topic
redcat and exceed do not have anything that resembles a hyper 9 and thank god the 9 is a great platform and it is not at the same time its very soft but a racer its extremely capable but id take a losi on that one :d but also those cars run 800 to 1k easily are they really worth 1k ? you decide
comparing redcat or exceed to something that costs 3 to 4 times the price cannot be done

if hpi was so annoyed or feared so badly about clones copying there designs they would file a claim on the work and bring them to court

what is going to kill this hobby is that rc companies like traxxas and yes even losi are not moving forward , instead there using the same chassis over and over again and end users are findin that layout rather lacking for what losi built it for
case in point the dsert truck , slash look alike that plat form isnt suited for short course

zeo 1

also , thank you savagejim for coming on here with something besides just bad grammar thanks for sticking to the subject

J.D.T

they copy other peoples stuff with inferior quality components that is true but its not just the quality of the parts its the fit and finish also, casting flaws here and there, nicks, cuts and scrapes all over for poor assembly techniques, you claim not be be pumping them up but it sounds to me like you never had anything better, drop the cash and order an xray 808 buggy kit I suspect after driving it you will have that redcat on cragslist in a minute. Everyting in life can be cheaper, is a hobby in which most spend two thousand or less dollars per year something you need to skimp on? I would rather have the five cars I got built the way I want, I could easily have 20 of these cheap rtr clones sitting around, whats the point in that? I would rather be one of these guys with 50 tamiya kits sitting around unassembled collecting dust.

zeo 1

actually i have a few good rc kits alot of traxas cars t maxx with a .21 conversion kit a mini t with a brushless ez run motor traxxas bandit with a novak gtb brushless kit :d funny fast little car needs a new tranny though
dura trex thunderquake / old ass axis style platform
exceed rc forza and mad fire

rc 10 t4 truck with a rooster and 19 turn x2 motor
nitro 4tech used as parts now

i have many rc and legal clones are fine the illegal ones nd to be washed out and done away with indeed

zeo 1

im going to put this out there so no more flaming :d i do not support illegal cloning what this thread was supposed to be about is the fact that allot of the rcs we buy are in fact made in china a company called hsp makes so many of the parts for our cars it's not even funny however i will also say that legal clones are OK so long as there's support for them hsp bajer or whatever they call it is OK for a first time 1/5th scale however the price difference is not in there favor in other words get the baja 5b :P but also realize that 90 % of the parts are interchangeable
xray 808 b is a decent buggy xray has a great name and support for the kits they make

also in terms of grammar it takes less intellect to come to a thread and say something point less rather then actually sticking to the subject
i can see that this thread has sprung a bad spot with many rcers which is fine we are all in titled to our opinions and are free to share them however don't bash another person for sharing there ideas
so do i support the legal clones , yes i do

do i support the illegal crap that comes into the market , no
but this isn't the point of this thread

in the industry whatever works and sells every company is going to jump the gun and copy each others stuff

all rc is cloned but then again its legal cloning
of course traxxas made a stink when losi released there desert truck
saying itw as bad practice however in losis defense they stated its the st platform
just with the truck tires and body

Chris_RC

Lets look at Losi's latest releases:
8ight 2.0 RTR
8T 2.0 RTR. Both were designed to make their 1/8 4wd offroad line complete with the new 2.0 series.
MLST2 Special Edition because they had tons of spare parts.
Strike RTR and BND. New cocept in cars with the BND with new chassis and car that wasnt based on a single car because of the mid mounted motor.
Speed-NT to fill their Speed 1/10 lineup.
Night Crawler to fill their RTR 1/10 crawler market.
1/36 high Roller
And the 1/18 Desert Buggy. You can't say that is not moving foward with the completely new design.

So if you look at their lineup and tell them they need more innovation and move foward,,,, I dont know what to say?

zeo 1

well you got me on that one however the 8ight and the 8ight 2.0 dont count so much since they share the same plat form 8ight 2.0 was a step up from the older plat form since it was flawed and needed a bit of an upgrade 1/18th i kinda pass up seeing as how many of them are just smaller versions of the 1/10s and 1/8 platforms
but indeed a few manufacturers are moving up losi is one of um but i wish traxxas and ae would yeah they have there buggy and truggy but they still keep releasing the monster gt great truck but outdated now but they figure throw a huge ass engine in it and whalla new truck but i guess it dose work ill say id by a new mgt just because of a huge engine :also the dsert buggy and desert truck are based off the mini t plat form just add kool bumper and wheels and wham desert buggy and truck :d not to mention there lst how many reforms do we have of that truck ? alot losi is a great comapny i still have my 1991 losi junior t