NERF Demo
 

Well, I saw my first NERF demo this past weekend. All I can say is, I sure hope they don't ALL fly like that. If so, this is NO way for a newbie to fly combat. They look harder to fly than a real combat plane. Can't even do a loop. Stall stall stall stall stall stall stall stall stall. One of em flew in to the spectators area because it stalled out of control. If that was any example of what the rest of the NERF guys are doing, good luck getting it to last as a class or anything else. EWWW, that was ugly !

NERF Demo
 

Stallig into the crowd? thatis super scary, think maybe anew setback for that class because of new fliers and bad handling?

NERF Demo
 

I'm just hoping this was not the norm for SSC planes. Don't know for sure, this is the only example I've seen so far. Looks like they needed more power or less weight.

NERF Demo
 

1Jimbo,

Johnny and I were talking about the SSC planes on the way home Saturday. These planes and class or so new the the designs have not evolved yet. Didn't you try serval designs for your open planes before you chose what you use now? I sure did.

I did learn some things. I am so use t o flying Open B planes and being able to just jerk them around the sky that I had to much throw on the controls of my nerf. I think that why they stall so often. We are trying to fly them like the bigger ones. Thats not going to work.

I was OK with the way mine flew for the most part, but it's not what I will stay with. I going to try a rudder design next. I'll be able to have everything inside and clean up the airframe. Maybe the dihedral will also help the stalling.

We sure had a blast flying with you guys. I was happy I did get a cut in the Nerf demo. To bad it didn't count in the heats (I sure could have used the points ;)

Lane Osbon
Sharks R/C Club

NERF Demo
 

Jimbo is right. Our first try at Nerfs left quite a bit to be desired. But look at how much fun it's going to be making them better.

They flew about as good as the pictured Raptor,,,,,,,,,on it's way down :eek:

Man, when those Bandits get you, they have no mercy :D

Ugh, you didn't happen to find my needle valve assembly embedded in the foam did you :confused:

Cajun:cool:

NERF Demo
 

Lane, We enjoyed you and Johnny coming over and flying with us. Be sure and let us know your clubs plans for the October meet. we will try to make the scene.

Bob and I spent the evening in the shop saturday evening and came up with a Nerf wing we flew Sunday. It was 100% better than the one we flew Sat. And, I think we can build some improvements into it.

I'm hoping to have two more wings ready to test Sat.

Cajun:cool:

NERF Demo
 

Cajun,

Thanks for letting us come fly we you guys. We had a great time. It had been awhile for me to fly a round of combat. To Long...

I have talked to Doug tonight and we are going to meet this week to iron out everything for the meet Oct.27th. As it stands we will fly RCCA Open B and Scale if enough show for that class.
I've also ask for a Nerf demo round.

Hope ya'll get to come, and maybe we can setup some times for this comming season to fly together.

LaneO :)

NERF Demo
 

Good pic Cajun. Look at it long and hard. That's the same planes I been kicking your butt with every single contest for two years.

NERF Demo
 

LaneO we will have our NERF planes ready in a short while but they will all be under weight. Can't bring em to a contest like that can we?

NERF Demo
 

Hey Cajun, at least my Raptors wings don't fold for no reason like that Bandit did.
You got a picture of that? :stupid:

NERF Demo
 

I think Evil Mike hid that one away real quick before I could get a pix. ;) I suspect that one had some undetected damage prior to flying.

Cajun:cool:

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jimbo, we will be using the ssc rules that Lou has posted all over the net.... 2.5# min.......

I agree, we were off by a bunch, but in testing mine out saturday, it is flying better by a bunch... I even tied on a 30' streamer to make sure.... rpms were down because of a trim problem... makes a bunch of diffence with a .15........

I think ssc will work with a .15... but I also think you guys are on the right track with a club level .25 combat plane... If every one will stay with the guidelines and not start buying perf spec mufflers, 30% fuel, ect.... anything will work that is slower than what we fly in RCCA B open... and can really be called Slower and more survivable than RCCA b open planes..... I tried to get a couple of guys 2 yrs ago to fly hat tricks with stock .25s..... 2 to 3 wanted to try it but our local speed combat dude insisted he fly a mvvs21 with tuned pipe..... so back to square one....

NERF Demo
 

We plan on doing whatever it takes to match the speeds of your SSC planes. The one and ONLY thing we want to do different is to get GREAT vertical perfomance(not fast). I don't see that as a problem at all.

NERF Demo
 

Now that sounds like a job for a Pizza box!!!:)

NERF Demo
 

Hey Tattoo, does your Pizza box ever go in to a spiral when you try to get it in to a straight hover? Sometimes mine will get in to a spiral that I just can't get it out of. (Only on a straight hover.)

Our SPAD Defenders fly great with .15's
 

Yesterday we had a pair of flat bottom foam wings with 432 sq inches of area (I will shorten the cord on subsequent wings and narrow the thickness of the wing from 1.25inch to 1.00 inch) flying SSC with a pizza box (not a good combat plane) and had a blast!!! I believe that you guys are flying aircraft that are meant to be flown very fast to fly well (very aerodynamic that is thin on the ends, fully and semisemetrical wings) with smaller engines that can't pull the airframes fast enough to get enough lift. This is why you are stalling aircraft. The design needs to be made with alot of lift (such as a flat bottom) so that at these slow speeds the aircraft does what you tell it. We flew these slow defenders with stock 25's and .28s, but got our butts kicked by the shreveport crew in class B, but they fly much, much better as SSC ships. I have yet to stall one out. I'll post a picture this afternoon to give you an idea of what we built.

NERF Demo
 

I have a two pound sport plane with a Mag.15XL on it and the vertical sucks. That is proof enough for me. Add another half pound to that and it really sucks.
We are going to do a one design, one engine, one prop contest.

NERF Demo
 

Jimbo, what prop are you going to use? I've been trying to find low pitch 10" props and they are not available, except for APC. I've tried the 10x4s, and with a light airframe, and most 25s, the speed will approach what we are flying now.

A thick wing might help, but will not slow it down enough to fall into the 40-45 MPH area. A 10x4 prop turning 15K has a speed potential of about 60MPH. My Flippin Disk, with a thick foam airfoil and 3 pounds with a GMS .25 and 10X4 MA prop will probably approach 50/55 MPH, in level flight, possibly more. :eek:

I hope you find the right combination, but history has proven in Pylon and Combat, if an engine/prop has the potential to achieve a given top speed, some dudes will be fudging enough to reach this speed. This puts a big burden on the CD to attempt to enforce what is mandated for equipment.

I have no doubts it is possible, but Probable,Hmmmm :confused:

This is what happened to Open B. The founders never envisioned the possibility of someone flying a 2.5 lb plane with a Jett .30 engine at 100 MPH. But it happened and it was legal by the rules.

Good Luck. :)

Cajun:cool:

NERF Demo
 

I have flown plain bearing .25's(stock) for the better part of 7 years at the beginning of my r/c days and they do not have much power. They are light and cost the same as a brearing .15. We are going to do some testing on props to see which one gives us the desired effect. There is no way in the the world a bushed stock .25 will come even close to the speeds we are flying now. Sorry, I just don't agree with you there. I will test the rpm's on my mag.25gp and let you know but I'll bet it is somewhere in the 12k range with a 9x6 mas.
I have seen the effects of a very thick wing on some fun fly planes and it is pretty dramatic. I have also seen the effects on my planes when you make the center of the wing wider (long center cord length). This alone has added a great deal of drag to my Raptors with out much weight. As for the CD thing, it would be no more trouble than the present SSC rules. It will be very easy to spot a cheater with a single engine/plane/prop/ contest. If you don't have a TT.25GP you can't play, plain and simple. If can't afford to by a $50 engine, to bad. You should have picked a cheaper hobby.
It can work and it will work.

NERF Demo
 

The 9x6 prop turning 12K has a speed potential of 72 MPH. Not
exactly slow Nerf speed. And a number of us, L.T. for example could port and retime that thing and add 1500 RPM. And it would not be evident by looking at it from the outside. Now that would add 9 MPH to it's speed potential.:eek:

Good luck. I hope you can make it work.:)

Cajun:cool:

NERF Demo
 

Did I say we were going to use a 9x6 for combat? NO, I didn't. All I said was I was going to check the RPM's with it so I can get an idea of the RPM range of my engine. Please don't tell me you think that a given engine/prop combo will pull all planes at the same speed. If that were the case I would fly pylon with a Sig Kadet.
You lost me on the LT thing. :confused: We ALL have tachs.

NERF Demo
 

I would assume if you were going to tach a 9x6 prop you were planning on flying it :confused: Otherwise why bother :confused:

If I were going to fly a different prop, I would tach the prop I was planning on using :D

Your right, all planes will not fly the same speed on a given prop, BUT the speed POTENTIAL OF A GIVEN PROP AT A GIVEN rpm IS static with one of the variables in actual speed attained being the shape and cleanliness of the airframe. And if the speed potential is XX MPH, some would be flying planes at that speed.

But, I applaud your efforts at whatever your trying to do, in whatever way your trying to do it, and I wish you luck. I am absolutely convinced something will come of it. :rolleyes:

cajun:cool:

NERF Demo
 

Assume? Why would you do that? I'll tach it with the props I have on hand so I can get an idea about what rpm range the engine is capable of. Why is that hard for you to understand?
We will all be flying the same planes, why is that so hard for you to understand,they will all be going the same speed. Looks like trying to explain something to you is a total waist of time.
You don't applaud anything we are trying to do and you couldn't care less. All you want to do is act like a complete ***.

Nerf Defender with foam wing
 

Here's a picture of my Nerf Defender. It is perfect for SSC. The AP engines .15 is only turning around 14k with %10 nitro and Topflight 8X4. It doesn't have unlimited vertical, but at 2 lbs has enough to be fun. Flying as slow as these planes are flying the flat bottom flies AWSOME. It is rock solid even in a slow loop. I don't believe the 2.5 lb rule is a good one. The original rules were a great starting point, but we are seeing that the disadvantages (snapping out of turns and hitting spectators, sluggish vertical performance and overall crappy flight characteristics) of an extra 8 oz far outweigh the potential good (slowing down the aircraft). We are seeing that a .15 sized airplane with 400 sq in of wing will generally come out at 2lbs and fly much better than a lead sled at 2.5 lbs. I can see a 2 lb MINIMUM because that would keep the high tech guys out of buying expensive carbon fiber and whatever else they can use to get an edge, but for people's safety and overall flight performance, 2.5 lbs should be the MAXIMUM, not the minimum. This planes wing was cut from foam insulation and uses a coroplast fuselage that bounces rather than shatters like the gutterpipe sometimes does on impact. It is reasonably light (2 lbs) and flies where you put it which is exactly what we want in a safe, fun combat airplane. :D

here's another picture
 

The servo is mounted to the bottom of the wing to keep it safe from impact. We flew two of these in several heats this weekend an had a blast. They fly slow enough to think and process your next move which is something our club members cherish since we are not on the competative scene.

ssc/class B = apples/oranges
 

having personally flown and closely observed some ssc yesterday, I can say that it should not be expected to be anything like the current evolution of class B. I can attest to the fact that the SPAD's we flew were safely controllable and I was able to perform about any maneuver I wanted to with the exception of unlimited vertical. Energy management was required but that was part of the fun of it and everyone had a ball.

I also noticed that we ended up combatting in a pretty small "box" which was really all the room we needed. The slower speeds allowed us time to plan our next move. I noticed my peripheral vision becoming "wider" , for lack of better words, in that the slower speed allowed me to have a better look at other planes around me ( i.e. IMPROVED SITUATIONAL AWARENESS! ). I believe this improved situational awareness allowed me to more effectively keep my plane out of harm's way ( not that I'm against some good ol' mid airs, hey, thats part of it). How many mid air's has anyone been in where they actually knew it was going to happen? Most of my class B mid-airs involved me, or some other poor sucker getting cold-cocked from out of nowhere by a plane you never saw. But nothing against B class, it's just faster, and I still fly B class.

In short, ssc, with the right type of plane, is safe and fun, but just in a different way than class B, which is also safe and fun in its own respect. I just think we shouldnt have great expectations of B class type of combat out of the limitations mandated by ssc class.
We are comparing apples to oranges.

NERF Demo
 

Well put Tom. Jimbo, I noticed that you guys are building planes that come out around 2lbs as well, but the guys in Shreveport and sticking to the 2.5lb weight limit. I'd love to fly some "unofficial" demo rounds with you after the "official" event is over so that people can see how a .15 sized combat plane should fly. We should have a much more enjoyable experience.

NERF Demo
 

Hey Roger - Is that a coro over foam wing?
What is your wingspan?

NERF Demo
 

Roger, thanks for posting the pix and some data on your ssc plane. That's way more than our friend from SW La. has done.

I invited him to bring his designed but secret plane to Alazan a week ago and participate in some Nerf demo, but ,,,,,yep,,,,you guessed it. He came, but the phantom plane did not. Personally, I feel he is just blowing swamp smoke ;)

He does a negative post here on the Nerfs that did a demo,(and they did not fly very well with streamers), but very carefully hid his so he wouldn't be embarassed. I wouldn't hold my breath on seeing it at Shreveport. You can't see what doesn't exist. SWAMP SMOKE.

Your plane is similar to mine except for the wing. I am test flying three wings, 2 tapered and 1 constant chord. It is obvious that different airfoils really fly differently at these speeds. I haven't found the one I'm looking for yet. The E203 flies very well without the snappishness and seems to turn well. I have a couple more I am going to try.

My fuse is a 1.75" blue foam block wrapped with 2 mil coro. I think it will withstand the rigors of Nerf very well. The plane weighs exactly 2.5 lbs. The only flight maneuver it won't do is long vertical lines. It requires a different flying style than B, but it is slow, responsive and Fun. It may be a little daunting for a relatively new pilot. It does have to be flown with a touch.

It is definately not a lead sled, but I could go with a minimum weight of, maybe 2.25 lbs. I can see both sides of this argument. We screwed up and ruined Open C by not putting a minimum weight on it. We wound up with 5 lb Spads with .46 power and 50 MPH flying against 2 lb. Raptors with Jett 30s flying in excess of 100 MPH. It didn't work, and the class never developed and will never develop. So the minimum weight is needed to keep it a SSC class.

I think we have the opportunity to continue to develope this class and I forsee it becoming a popular event for club level or larger meet combat. A lot of guys are experimenting and I think we'll see much better designs in a short time. Look at the advancements made in Open B ships in the past year.

As for the naysayers here, I just say show me something other than talk, and I'll take you seriously. :rolleyes:

Cajun:cool:

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hey all ,what say we all step back take a deep breath.Remember, this is suppose to be fun :) Its not worth getting upset over.

John

NERF Demo
 

You are right about one thing, you will not see our NERF planes in Shreveport. They are not SSC legal. We are building these planes to fill a need in this area. We have had seven pilots drop out of the RR contest because of Cajun(that I know of for sure). It's time for us to do something different before we have no one leftl. We have 5 pilots in my club some from Beaumont and some from Nederland that want to do this ".25 slow combat"

coro over wing
 

No, thats a heavy form of ripstop nylon. It's airoil is an NHCA something or other. Tbyrd what is that airfoil again? It uses an 11 inch cord (exluding ailerons) and 36 inch length.

NERF Demo
 

Well, he's probably right as usual. :stupid:

But, Old Cajun has kept a monthly combat series going for two years, and only one other group in Texas can match that. I'm happy to see the guy from Sulphur is going to try it next season. He might want to grow a little thicker skin first though.:D:D

Cajun:cool:

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John B., thanks for the thought, but I, for one, don't get upset over stuff I read here. If this stuff upset me I'd take up tiddlywinks :D

Cajun:cool:

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Roger,

I believe the airfoil I used on our defender wings is a NACA-64 or at least something very similar


Hey Cajun,

what is the chord (including ailerons)of the wing of that plane in the photo?

Tom

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It's 9" root and 7.5" tip with 54"span. I think that one is a S8035 root and E203 Tip. I'm also trying a 56" E203 of 9"x7.5", and a constant chord Clark Y of 48".

I have a couple more plotted that I want to try.

So many things to try,,,,So little time.:D

Cajun:cool:

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I've always been a fan of the clark-Y. Have you flown it on your ssc plane yet? It seems like it would do well at the low speeds. I know what you mean by the time issue. Every time I look through my Profili program, I always find a new template to make and get sidetracked from what I was originally working on.

One thing I notice with the Defender wing with it's huge chord is that it behaves similar to a flying wing or pizza box in that it is difficult to stall and never tip stalls, and can be drug around at high AoA. it does turn and maintain it's energy better than a pizza box type though(although not as good as a high aspect ratio wing). These characteristics would make it good for beginners who might freak out if their plane suddenly stalls in the heat of combat.

NERF Demo
 

I haven't test flown the Clark Y yet. Need to get some covering on it. I suspect it will fly Ok, but may have to play with the span.

Your right about Profili. What we need is a new program where we can feed in what we want the wing to do, and Profili would spit out the airfoil we need :D

I'll let you know how the Clark Y performs, either Wed. or the weekend.

Cajun:cool:

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down in florida we have been flying nerf as the 5 commandments lou has set forth.

it is our open b rudder plane with a magnum .15. we are having an absolute blast. we get 10 minute heats, and are doing about 5 heats in a day of flying. that's alot of combat!!!!!!!!

we have switched to survey tape because we would run out of streamers too fast with the democrate. we call a drape a cut, it's easy enough to see at these speeds.

these planes do not have unlimited verticle. a beginner can fly them but to fly them well and get cuts you have to really fly them. alot of stradegy and power conservation. in my opinion it is more like flying scale combat than scale combat is.

our planes are right at 2lb 12oz. alittle heavy but they fly great and are very durable. they are durable b planes, that makes them very tough nerfs. billy had 4 mid-airs in one heat yesterday and finally landed because he was dead-stick. tape up the prop-cuts and flying again. i have destroyed two wings in nerf but have flown about 5 hours of combat so that doesn't seem too bad.

i would love to fly .25's but to get them to these speeds or slower seems unobtainable. let us know what you find out but don't discount the .15 cause you didn't see a very good demonstration of what they are capable of.

steve "slam" lamson

NERF Demo
 

Glad to see you guys are having fun with it. That's what really counts.
I'm not just going by the demo I saw. I have a 2lbs Stinger with a .15 on it. The vertical performance is not very good, and it is a half pound lighter than the NERF's. It is the opinion of our pilots that it is easier and more fun for a newbie and an experienced pilot to fly a plane that DOES NOT have stall tendencies, especially when you have a couple streamers on the wing. With the right engine(stockTT.25GP) and wing combo there is no reason we can't make them fly slow enough and still have good vertical. They may even be a good bit stronger because of the thickness of the wing. Time will tell, NO ONE has even given it a chance, much less a try. We think WE will enjoy this a little more than what some others are doing now. Once we get it going I'll come back and give ya'll an honest and truthful report. It may not work, but if it does it may be the only combat I fly from now on.