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motor/esc/battery explanation

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Old 09-21-2011, 03:40 AM
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BlindObject
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Default motor/esc/battery explanation

I posted a thread once but it god deleted I guess. But within the thread someone explained brushed and brushless motots, batteries and escs. It explained turns and kv on a motor and etc, it was extremely helpful. can anyone repost such info, or direct me to some websites? Thanks!
Old 09-21-2011, 07:06 AM
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Default RE: motor/esc/battery explanation

It was me, I'll try to find it from my posting history, back in a minute...
Old 09-21-2011, 07:11 AM
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Default RE: motor/esc/battery explanation

Here ya go...

ORIGINAL: Foxy

In response for your request concerning info about electric in general, here are some basic guidelines:

Motor

Motors come in 2 basic varieties, brushed and brushless. Brushed motors are older technology and are only really used still, in classes that dictate you must use a brushed motor, and other applications that require very smooth throttle response, and low speed control, such as Crawling and Drifting. Brushless motors need maintenance every so often, changing the brushes when they wear down and sometimes shaving a layer of metal off the commutator (using a 'comm lathe') to provide a better surface for the brushes.

Brushless motors are the newer technology, requiring no maintenance and delivering significantly more speed and power for the same ratings.

Both types of motor are rated in 'turns', with higher turns being more torque and less speed, and lower turns the opposite. Most brushless motors are also referred to as having a specific KV rating. This is a measure of their maximum rpm per volt. So, for example, if you see a brushless 10.5 turn 4000kv motor, it will turn 4000rpm for every volt supplied at maximum throttle. So the max speed of that motor on a 7.4v lipo battery will be 7.4*4000. In general consider that 3000kv or less is a fairly slow motor for high torque, and a 9000kv motor is a very fast, less torquey motor. The current a motor pulls (amps) goes up with the KV.

Speed controllers

Speed controllers also come in the brushed and brushless variety, indicating what kind of motor they can accept. There are many speed controls which can be switched or switch automatically between brushless and brushed operation. Running the wrong type of speed controller for the motor or running the wrong setting will destroy the speed controller and/or the motor in pretty short order.

The next things to look at on a speed controller are voltage and current ratings, which must not be exceeded. Often a speed controller (hereafter referred to as an ESC) will say first how many volts you can pump through it. Though this is often expressed in how many cells you can use (the number of cells your battery has). NimH old style batteries composed of a number of SubC cells are 1.2V per cell, and Lithium Polymer (lipo) batteries are rated at 3.7v per cell. You may see an ESC say '10 cell/3s max' This means 10 nimh cells (10*1.2=12v), or 3 lipo cells ('S' always refers to lipo cells) (3x3.7=11.1). Or the same speed controller may say 12v max. Once you have identified that the ESC can handle your batteries, you need to look at the current rating (maximum AMPS) and make sure your motor draw will not exceed that. Most motors will say how many amps they draw 'under load' and 'burst'. As long as those amps do not exceed the 'continuous' and 'burst' amp ratings of the ESC, you are good to go. As a general rule of thumb, 25A ESCs are for micro scale stuff, 40A ESCs will do for most 1/10th stuff, 60A ESCs are for the heavy duty (very high kv) 1/10th stuff, 80A for light duty 1/8th stuff, 120A for midrange 1/8th scale stuff, and 150-200A for the really big 1/8th scale stuff.

Batteries

Nimh batteries (made up of smaller 1.2v cells) need to be maintained. After a month of being flat, they will rarely take a full charge again, at least not without careful resurrection using a complex cycling charger for many hours, apart from that, decent nimh cells should be fine for almost all your current needs.

Lipo batteries are a little more trouble, but overall lower maintenance. The thing about Lipos is that they will generally start a fire if mistreated. Mistreated means; overcharged, overdischarged, badly damaged. These batteries must never be allowed to drop below 2.9v per cell. If this happens, first of all there is the fire risk if high current is still being pulled through it, but also a battery overdischarged in this way will never take a full charge again, and may visibly 'swell'. Therefore it's critical when using lipo batteries to use a speed control that has an automatic lipo cutoff, ideally one which you can set. When I have the option, I always set my lipo cutoff to 3.1v per cell. (so when a 2s (2 cell) 7.4v battery reaches 6.2v, the ESC stops the power to prevent battery damage). These batteries also need to be regularly balanced to make sure that the batteries stay at the same voltage per cell so that the lipo cutoff works properly. The danger of an unbalanced battery, is that eventually, if one cell in the battery were to fall to 2.6v, yet the other was still at 3.7v, that wouldn't be low enough (combined=6.3v) to activate the cutoff, but the first cell is already damaged beyond repair, having dropped below 2.9v. Balancing your batteries prevents these voltage mismatches. Most lipo chargers include a balancing charge option, which will do this automatically.

The good thing about Lipos is that they charge fast (can be charged in an hour at the most, and many can be fully charged in half an hour), they do not lose much charge over time sitting around, they deliver incredible amounts of current, and last a very long time. Despite the extra care, these batteries are VASTLY superior to the other type, and I strongly recommend getting some and getting used to their idiosyncracies. Dont be put off by the extra care they require, follow these simple rules and they are very easy to own and will serve you well for many many charge cycles.

Charge and discharge rating... When you buy a lipo battery, as well as the number of cells (2S, 3S, 4S, etc, which determine the voltage, 7.4, 11.1, and 14.8 respectively), and the duration expressed in mAh (milliamp hours), you will also see a discharge rating, expressed in 'C', for example, '2s 7.4v 5000mAh 25C'. This means it is a 2 cell 7.4v battery which will last for 5000miliamp hours and the maximum discharge rate is 25C. The C rating is an expression of how much continuous current (Amps) the battery can deliver safely (exceeding this can damage the battery and/or the ESC. The C rating is a formula based on the capacity. So, 25C on a 5000mAh battery is 25x5 (5000mA=5A), so this battery can deliver 125A of maximum continous current. A 40C battery of the same capacity would be able to deliver 200A of continuous current (40x5A=200A). Once again, it is important to match the battery to what your motor and ESC are capable of. To be honest, most batteries of 4000mAh or more at 20C or more are good enough for most applicatoins, it only starts to be a problem in the really high power 1/8th applications, where a 2650kv motor pulls say 150A continuous current. You would need to make sure that the C rating of your battery multiplied by its capacity makes at least 150 in order not to risk damage to the battery and/or ESC

The same applies when charging. You may see a battery say it can be charged at 1C or 2C. Lets take the 5000mAh example again. 1C as we said=5A, 2C=10A etc. So a 'Charge at 2C' battery with 5000mAh capacoity can be charged at 10A maximum.

Hope all that makes sense and helps.
Old 09-21-2011, 09:58 AM
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Default RE: motor/esc/battery explanation

Awesome! Thats exactly what I needed! Where did you find it? I couldnt find my thread. Btw, my battery doesnt inform me at how many amps I can charge it at, I have two sky lipos 4400mah 3s 30c batteries. How do i find out? Or what would be a safe but fast charge setting? Btw, what would be a good motor/esc for a emaxx?
Old 09-21-2011, 11:11 AM
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Default RE: motor/esc/battery explanation

1S is usually safe which would be 4.4 amps for the 4400mah's
basically (mah rating/1000)X charge rate
like I have turnigys that can charge at 2C
Old 09-21-2011, 10:14 PM
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Default RE: motor/esc/battery explanation


ORIGINAL: BlindObject

Awesome! Thats exactly what I needed! Where did you find it? I couldnt find my thread. Btw, my battery doesnt inform me at how many amps I can charge it at, I have two sky lipos 4400mah 3s 30c batteries. How do i find out? Or what would be a safe but fast charge setting? Btw, what would be a good motor/esc for a emaxx?
It was in your thread which is about 5 pages back now. If you are ever unsure about the charge rate, do it at 1C. So in your case, 4.4A. Realistically, I'm sure you could get away with 5, and maybe more, but I'm not familiar with that particular battery. There are people who say that even if the batt can handle 2C charging, it's better to do it at 1C, that the battery will live longer this way (overall life, not charge capacity).
Old 05-27-2015, 08:19 AM
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Hi total newbie here and don't want to blow my toy up just yet at the moment I have a 2700KV brushless motor with a 35A ESC and a 7.4V 2200mAh 25C LiPo 2S. Fishing for some help as I want to get a better capacity battery would this battery work without damaging anything Turnigy 4000mAh 3S1P 11.1V 40C~80C.

Tell me to get lost if you like no problem.

Cheers

Tim
Old 05-27-2015, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Timbo123
Hi total newbie here and don't want to blow my toy up just yet at the moment I have a 2700KV brushless motor with a 35A ESC and a 7.4V 2200mAh 25C LiPo 2S. Fishing for some help as I want to get a better capacity battery would this battery work without damaging anything Turnigy 4000mAh 3S1P 11.1V 40C~80C.

Tell me to get lost if you like no problem.

Cheers

Tim
That depends on many things. The new battery you mention is 3S (your old one is 2S, this means the number of battery cells it has). What this will do is increase your top speed by about 50% (it will make your car much, MUCH faster, assuming the rest of the equipment can handle it). What car do you have?
Old 05-28-2015, 01:55 AM
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Can always do with a bit more speed.... basically I'm getting about 20 mins run time from my existing battery then it takes approximately 4hrs !!! to charge. So ideally I would like to get more run time less charge time with a bit more boost. After having read your post "motor/esc/battery explanation" I'm aware there is a lot more involved with these LiPo batteries other than just getting a higher capacity battery that fits your setup. Here is a link to the car I have, I'm also realising I should have gone for a more main stream make, like HPI or Tamiya etc.

http://www.********.co.uk/rc-cars/circuit-thrash-1-9-scale-rc-monster-truck-with-led-lights-brushless-24ghz-version.html

Thanks for your time really appreciate it.

Thanks

Tim
Old 05-28-2015, 10:38 AM
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Timbo, it's not that you should have bought a more mainstream brand in the start, I often recommend new folks try something cheap first, as they may decide that this hobby isn't for them after all and then they are out very little. But to me it sounds like you are already getting into the hobby and enjoying it. So at this point my advice is not to spend any more on that truck, except in areas which you will then be able to share with your next car (such as electrics, batteries, etc).

You may notice that your link has been starred out. This is because nitro_tek have been in trouble for trying to promote their links in the forum in the past, and the site management felt they had no choice but to block the URL (just FYI, I'm not saying you shouldn't use them, they do have some good prices).

Your next purchase should be this (you'll have to remove the spaces)... http://www. n i t r o t e k .co.uk/rc-accessories/chargers-adapters/skyrc-imax-b6ac-rapid-digital-li-po-and-nimh-battery-charger.html

This is the base for running electric RC, you need a decent charger that can 'balance' your batteries and also charge them much faster. When you use this charger, you will charge your current battery on the 'balance' charge setting at 2.2 amps, this will take about 1 hour and 10 minutes if the battery is healthy and using a charger like this you will probably get better run times out of the existing battery (though possibly not by much). When you buy better batteries you'll be able to charge them faster. For example, this charger will charge that 4000mAh 3S battery comfortably in about 40 mins at 6A, its maximum setting. You'd be able to cycle 2 of those batteries all day.

You could get that 3S battery, but based on the fact that your current charger takes 4 hours to charge a 2S pack to 2200, as you can imagine, the 4000mah battery will take twice as long. And this is all assuming that the speed controller in your car can even accept a 3S battery, and assuming your current charger can charge it. I would recommend sticking with 2S batteries for now, even after getting the charger I linked above. Make sure any new battery you buy will fit in the model. Measure your current battery or the internal dimensions of the battery holder in the model and then check the dimensions of the battery you plan to buy, most will specify, make sure it fits.

Once you have the charger and a couple of batteries, if you feel this is a hobby you want to get into, then yes, look into a better model. The HPI Blitz is an economical and GREAT truck, but that's just one that springs to mind, there are many good deals out there these days if that doesn't turn you on.

Last edited by Foxy; 05-28-2015 at 10:50 AM.
Old 05-29-2015, 01:15 AM
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Thanks very much, you confirmed my suspicions about the charger. I also think I may be guilty of knackering y battery by letting it run completely flat one last question sorry, how can I check whether the ESC can cope with a 3S, because I can't seem to find a better battery with the correct dimensions in a 2S....

Thanks a stack you have given me a lot of info and help here, which I tried getting from a local RC club but the chaps there weren't too keen to part with their knowledge or just didn't know enough not sure.

Thanks again

Tim
Old 05-30-2015, 01:07 AM
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Your best bet for your ESC capabilities is to email nitro_tek.

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