PlaneKrazee

My Feedback: (14)

Will ethanol work just as well as methanol in glow engines?

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

[b]Brian:

I've been told ethanol will work, but you'll find it harder to get a good grade, and it will be more expensive than methanol.

Mixed with a Coke, ethanol makes a good drink. Use methanol the same way and you'll go blind.

Problem is the ATF considers ethanol (grain alcohol) to be a regulated substance, and it's taxed highly.

You can get a good grade of methanol at your local hardware store, for ethanol you go to the liquor store. Additionally, in many states and counties sales of pure grain aclohol is illegal.

Bill.

Rupurt

If you find yourself in hospital with methanol poisoning they will give you shots of ethanol(in the form of whiskey or brandy, not sure if you get to choose), ethanol is metabolised before methanol and allows you to git rid of the methanol before it is processed, well I thought it was interesting. But as you say it would only be "LESS TOXIC" than methanol but much more expensive.

Dr1Driver

Why worry about it being toxic? Methanol is ok, unless you plan to bathe in it, drink it, or breathe the vapors all day long.

If it REALLY worries you, use a Haz-Mat breathing apparatus and gloves.

Dr.1

kojak41

Much, if not all, of the ethanol that is sold without paying the licquer tax over the counter has de-naturing agents put in it to make it impossable to drink. Don't know exactly what they are or what they might do to your glow plugs and engines.

downunder

There's an interesting post in the Fuels forum http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_3219478/tm.htm (post #4) about using E85 auto fuel in a 4 stroke.

DarZeelon

Since yhe glow plug needs the constant catalytic action, of its platinum glow element, on the fuel's methanol substrate, to retain its glow (in order to keep the engine running...), I don't think ethanol is a likely replacement for methanol.

I don't think ethanol invokes as strong a catalytic reaction and the glow plug will have to be energized full time, for the engine to run.

Shouldn't this thread be boved to the 'R/C Fuels' forum?

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

Most usually 5% methanol is used to denature Ethanol. I also believe the BTU content is less on Methanol. I looked up the values on Google and found a lot of variance but it was in the 20% greater BTU* in the Ethanol.

Edit to but in the figures for BTU content...

bhady

Around here there are several facilities that manufacture ethanal that is eventually used as a fuel additive for automotive use. Immediately after distilling, a low grade gasoline is added as a denaturing agent to make it unfit for consumption. Pure ethanal is highly regulated and taxed and is basically unavialable.

ini

Ethanol contains much more energy per volume than methanol.
Because of this it necessitates different settings in carb. Also cooling effect is much lower.

I remember some guys testing ethanol appr. ten years ago with 2C engines.
The results were not very promising as the engines did run very hot and unreliably.
Maybe a constant glow plug current would help.

Anyway, why bother. In small engines fuel cost is not a factor. In bigger engines petrol and ignition are there already.

ini

B.L.E.

Almost all ethanol is distilled from fermented grain or sugar. It is impossible to get absolutely pure ethanol that way. The highest percentage you can get is about 95% ethanol (190 proof) and 5% water. The reason this is so is because a mixture of 95% ethanol and 5% water has a lower boiling point than pure ethanol has. This may be the reason that ethanol does not work well in glow engines. Water contaminated methanol doesn't work very well either.

When absolutely pure ethanol is wanted, sulfuric acid is added to 95% ethanol. The water stays with the sulfuric acid and pure ethanol is boiled off in the still. Absolute ethanol is so hygroscopic that a full bottle of it will pull moisture out of the air and the contents will run over if the bottle is left open to the air.


Methanol is poisonous but it is not a cumulative poison like mercury and lead.

chasrb

Hello Bill, I am over here looking at fuel for the Seidel ST710. Some have said to make my own since the engine requires 100% synth oil and no castor. So I have yet to find a mfg ofglow fuel that has a all synth oil with a 7% ratio to the methonal and maybe a 5-10% nitro ratio...any ideas?

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

[b]Chas:

Methanol is also hygroscopic. That's why you can't leave the top off your fuel bottle.

Methanol can be bought at your local hardware store as "Shellac Thinner," among other names it may be labeled "Methyl Hydrate" or "Wood Alcohol." By whatever name, it's not hard to find.

In spite of the crowd yelling "NO CASTOR - NEVER" I still like a small amount. I've never had a problem because I did use castor, I strongly suspect I have avoided a few problems by continuing the use of castor oil.

Bill.

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

[b]Chas:

More on the fuel.

If you just can't bring your self to mix your own, Brian Cooper, Cooper Fuels, will mix it for you. Just remember the Feds have a nasty surcharge on shipping - they consider it a hazaedous substance.

Bill.

MJD

My Feedback: (1)

How about purchasing some 18% oil all synthetic fuel with 15 to 20% nitromethane, and diluting it with methanol in the ratio 61% methanol and 39% fuel? (by volume)

You would get 7% oil, 5.85% - 7.8% nitromethane, and the balance methanol.

Or 20% oil, 15-20% nitromethane, and diluting it 65% methanol to 35% fuel?

This would yield 7% oil, 5.25% - 7% nitromethane.

Mike D.

chasrb

Not a bad idea, I have to admit I did not think of that.

Thanks

Jim Thomerson

A guy who works at a plant told me that they now produce anhydrous ethanol, not by fermentation, for addition to gasoline. He also told me that ethanol is now cheaper than gasoline in the USA.

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

[b]Jim:

Before or after taxes?

Bill.

speedster 1919

My Feedback: (3)

You will see more plants going up and producing more ethonol. It is the future fuel of the USA The price will go down as volume goes up. I predict 85% gas to ethonol will be the norm in a few years. Right now production is subsidized as an alternative fuel so who nows what the price will in a few years.

fly_for_sport

Hi guys,

I posted it on conversion forum, but nobody paid attention:

"Yesterday I tested ethanol with 25% castor, no nitro and got:
2800 rpm idle
10800 rpm full throttle

Engine is a 40LA with a 10x6 MA. The plug is an A3, almost new (1 flight).

Here ethanol is sold as car fuel, it has 4% water and some gas. The gas just to become undrinkable.

I think the idle is some high, but the full is satisfactory, only 200 rpm below than with a sports Byron (10% nitro). The engine needs some "warm up", otherwise if you give full throttle right after start, it dies. The needle become more sensitive, I think because no nitro was used. The transition is OK, but rougher than Byron.

I was conservative putting 25% castor, I know that the mixture must be leaner for ethanol, so less fuel, less oil... Surprinsingly, no need to turn much the needle, just the normal range for methanol. I was expecting 50% difference in mixture, but the engine started at first flip and no need to keep the glow driver. Does somebody have a guess ?

By the way, does somebody know the temperature readings for the engine at the head ?"

Regards

downunder

Ah, someone's been thinking...well done
I believe the air/fuel ratio for ethanol is about 9.5:1 while methanol is about 6.5:1 so you'd expect to have to turn the needle in a little. I'd say the reason you didn't need to adjust it much was because of the 25% castor. This reduces the volume of fuel (ethanol) that's in every drop plus it probably increased the viscosity of the fuel making it harder to flow through the same setting.

Head temperatures only make sense when used as a comparison on the same engine after making some change. I prefer to use the contact type thermocouple where you have to touch the wire against the engine (I always do it on the cylinder head at the base of the glowplug). Ideally you need to run your engine on normal fuel and check the temp then run it on the ethanol and see how much change there is. Chances are you'll find it's hotter on ethanol because there's less fuel going through to give internal cooling and no fuel soaks up heat as well as methanol does. But seeing you asked, I start to get worried if I see above about 250F or so.

DarZeelon

Brian,


Is the catalytic reaction of the platinum in the glow element, on the ethanol substrate, strong enough to sustain a reliable glow?
As the fuel expert, I ask you.

It has been written that it may not be strong enough and with other fuels; gasoline, for instance, the plug will simply not glow.
Combustion heat is insufficient to make it retain its glow.

downunder

Dar,
I'm not an expert on fuels but I've always had my doubts that ethanol would react with the platinum, at least, not to the extent that methanol does. Not being a drinker I've never actually tried it

But it seems fly-for-sport has got it to work successfully in a 2 stroke while canardlover (in the thread I linked to in post #6 above) needed continuous glow heat with a 4 stroke. It's certainly worth investigating further, particularly the E85 straight from a gas station. It seems though that plugs might need to be hotter than what's currently available. Fly-for-sport was using an A3 which is the hottest OS plug but the engine needed to be warmed up first while the 4 stroke (presumably with a hot 4 stroke plug) needed boosting.

fly_for_sport

Hi,

In fact at the time of the test, I took some temp measurements with a IR thermometer (Duratrax), but I thought it was not accurate, perhaps due to the prop airflow . But anyway ethanol readings was lower than the Byron fuel. I guess mainly to the fact that I was not using nitro and put more castor.

Next time I will take measurements with a thermocouple, and I will use less oil (20%), a mix of Castrol TTS (marine, semi-synth) and castor. Probably with more temp, the combustion will be more reliable at start up.

And of course will try to fly, that time I can't because of the wind.


Regards

PS.: My testing goal is to run with a .90 or bigger engine. Here market fuels are expensive: US$22.00/gallon or so. Ehanol is pretty cheap at the pump: US$1.60/gallon. Methanol needs papers to be bought, and is more expensive.

guver

My Feedback: (325)

Hi, Does ethanol mix with nitro-methane ok?
Does it mix ok with methanol?