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Castor vs Synthetic - 4 stroke problems

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Castor vs Synthetic - 4 stroke problems

Old 05-23-2003, 01:55 PM
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Default Castor vs Synthetic - 4 stroke problems

Hi all - I am new (only a little over a full year) and have gone from my LT-40 with an OS46 FX in it to my SIG 4 Star 60 with a SAITO 91.

The other day at the field I was told that the blend of 80% Castor to 20% Synthetic could be bad on my 4 stroke and make the exhaust valves stick after awhile. I was then shown the brown crude building up around the exhaust on the muffler. I thought this was normal for a little discoloration to start showing up.

Suggestion was that I go to an all synthetic fuel. What are everyone's thought's on this.

Also suggested I could drop to a 10% from 15% nitro and then only have one fuel for both engines.?

I don't know enough about it yet to tell the difference. I have 2 more gallons to go through before I need to buy more.

Thanks for any advise you can give me.
Old 05-23-2003, 06:50 PM
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Default Castor vs Synthetic - 4 stroke problems

Try Saito-engines.info/fuel.html . This is NOT an official Saito site, but a site run by someone with a lot of experience with Saito engines. Lots of info, should answer at least some of your questions.
Old 05-27-2003, 03:58 AM
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Default Castor vs Synthetic - 4 stroke problems

G Putt,
You stated:
"The other day at the field I was told that the blend of 80% Castor to 20% Synthetic could be bad on my 4 stroke and make the exhaust valves stick after awhile."

Over time, 80% castor / 20% synthetic fuel could cause (and most probably will) some varnishing up of the valves and ring land on a 4-stroke. This will be worse the hotter or leaner the engine is run.
If you are using a fuel with 80% synthetic and 20% castor (reverse of what you mentioned), you will not experience a severe varnishing problem. An 80/20 synthetic to castor blend would be just fine for most sport flying when properly tuned.


"Suggestion was that I go to an all synthetic fuel. What are everyone's thought's on this".

An all synthetic fuel is fine for 4-strokes and is quite common these days.
If you want one fuel for both of your engines, a synthetic / castor blended fuel is probably your best alternative.
A fuel with an 80/20 to a 90/10 ratio of synthetic to castor when the total oil amounts meet or exceed the manufacturers warranty requirements, will be fine for both your Saito and your 46FX when correctly run. That little bit of castor in the fuel will give you plenty of additional benefit for what little discoloration it causes on a muffler.
Old 05-27-2003, 11:40 AM
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Default YS 20/20...

I would suggest going to your favorite brand of YS 20/20 blend fuel. "20/20" stands for 20% nitro and 20% all synthetic oil content. I haven't had a four stroke yet that didn't like the nitro and oil content of this "blend" designed to cover YS's warranty requirements. Byron's is great, but then again, I am a dealer for Byrons.

Regards,
GPB
Old 06-03-2003, 12:36 PM
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Default Opinions are like ********

Everyone has one. Go to your local field and see what everyone else is running, how much time they spend tweaking their engines, or how they seem to run in the air for them. I have acquired several engines over the years that were run with castor based fuels and after time, they are difficult to even turn over with the prop due to buildup inside as well as outside. I have ran CoolPower 15% fuel in every glow engine I own, and I add about 2 oz. of Klotz oil to each gallon, and all engines run great. I spend no time at the field setting or playing with my engines. I come to the field to fly, and with this fuel combo and proper initial settings, that is what I do. I run Saito 180's, OS46FX's, Supertigers, YS's anything, and they all run great.
Old 06-03-2003, 01:03 PM
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Default Castor vs Synthetic - 4 stroke problems

Well here's another opinion.
You guys in America must have some really bad castor over there. It takes me years of running before I'll even consider taking an engine apart to clean it and that's with 20% all castor

Not owning a 4 stroke though I'll reserve judgement on the best oil for them.
Old 06-11-2003, 07:32 PM
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Default Castor vs Synthetic - 4 stroke problems

The Castor vs synthetic "debate" is an interesting one. I too recently go into 4 strokes. I have a Saito .91 that runs great on 10% cool power (100% synthetic). But when it comes to fuel you will get all kinds of advice. Here is what I have come to understand.

Castor oil provides protection at higher temps than synthetic so theoretically the 4 strokes will benefit by having some Castor oil in the mix. In fact the Magnum 4 stroke engines say they should be broken in with a fuel that has Castor in it since the engine will run hotter with 100% synthetic.

There is also a new trend at my flying field, and someone mentioned it here and that is people are starting to add extra synthetic oil (aka Klotz) to their fuel. Not sure how this started or why people feel that more is better. Maybe someone here can address that.

As far as Nitro is concerned, the four strokes don't need very much since their power doesn't come from high RPM but from torque. The 10% should work fine for you 2 stroke unless you are flying something high performance.

Hope this doesn't confuse you to much. Otherwise just fuel them up and go fly. If the engine runs great with what you are using don't feel obligated to change anything.
Old 06-15-2003, 05:53 AM
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Default Castor vs Synthetic - 4 stroke problems

Here is an excerpt from Wilcat Fuel site:

Wildcat recommends the lubrication package be totally synthetic. The use of synthetic oil is important in four stroke engines to prevent gumming and varnishing of the lifters and coking of the valves. Varnishing will occur on castor based fuels. This can lead to sticking valves, which will cause the valve set to get knocked out of time. Coking of the valves will cause improper seating of the valves causing a reduction in compression and incomplete combustion. Four stroke engines also have high exhaust gas temperatures and the use of synthetics greatly reduces carboning at the exhaust ports.
Read more about it here: http://www.wildcatfuel.com/fuel_24cycle.html
Old 06-20-2003, 08:16 AM
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Default Castor vs Synthetic - 4 stroke problems

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wildcat recommends the lubrication package be totally synthetic. The use of synthetic oil is important in four stroke engines to prevent gumming and varnishing of the lifters and coking of the valves. Varnishing will occur on castor based fuels. This can lead to sticking valves, which will cause the valve set to get knocked out of time. Coking of the valves will cause improper seating of the valves causing a reduction in compression and incomplete combustion. Four stroke engines also have high exhaust gas temperatures and the use of synthetics greatly reduces carboning at the exhaust ports.

Man, that's a riot.... I especially liked the one
about the "valve set....getting knocked out of time".....

We certainly wouldn't want that to happen....
Old 06-21-2003, 02:19 AM
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Default Castor vs Synthetic - 4 stroke problems

Flyboy Dave,

When I write information to the end user I have to take into account the user and various experience levels of the modelers. To state that the engine is "knocked out of timing" is just short-hand. I have ghost written many articles for various magazines on engines and glow plugs over the years and many other well respected names also simplify their statements to a laymans level. Although, the intention is to point our draw backs of castor based fuels in four strokes the technical aspects could be better explained and will be addressed in the near future. Thank you for pointing this out.

Jerry
Old 06-21-2003, 03:42 AM
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Default Jerry....

....thank you for the information.

Richard L. posted the "quote" from the Wildcat site....
and truthfully I didn't go to the site to check it out....

...but the thing is, you know alot of people come to this
site, and to the internet in general to get information. A
person unfamiliar with engines and fuels could garner this
from that post....

I you put castor oil in a four stroke motor, this can happen:

engine gumming....
varnishing of the lifters....
coking of the valves....
sticking valves....
valve set knocked out of time....
improper valve seating....
reduction in compression....
incomplete combustion....
carboning at the exhaust port....

Sounds like pretty bad stuff.... ....personally, I've not
experienced those evils from using some castor in my
engines....but I only started running the four strokes about
14 years ago....and have been using the same brand of fuel
throughout.

Thank you for your reply, Jerry....

Flyboy Dave.
Old 06-21-2003, 04:16 AM
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Default Castor vs Synthetic - 4 stroke problems

Dave,

I am glad you have had good sucess with what you have been doing. All of the things listed can and does occur in four strokes. The largest service centers biggest issue is the de-coking of motors returned for service. Like you I have been doin this for a while, around thirty years, and I have seen a few gummed up engines. Granted, not everyone experiences these problems, mainly due to experience in setting up a motor properly and not over leaning the motor. Since we manufacture for the many and not just the few we recommend what we know works the best in this application.

Jerry
Old 06-21-2003, 04:45 AM
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Default Jerry....

....well said. And I always say...."if it works for you....
stick with it". I have my 30 year hashmark also. One
thing I don't do....is bash any fuel brands....

....I will, however discuss the properties of different
types of oils....

And FWIW, I don't think I've ever heard anything bad
about Wildcat....

Good luck to you in your endeavors....

Dave.
Old 06-21-2003, 04:48 AM
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Default Castor vs Synthetic - 4 stroke problems

Dave,

Good deal.....I love these discussions...this is what this site is for. Don't worry I never take questions personally, I guess I am mellowing with age....well maybe...he he he.

Jerry
Old 06-23-2003, 03:16 PM
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Default Castor vs Synthetic - 4 stroke problems

Great thread!
We have two different fuel companies in one thread and no bashing, or otherwise misleading information, I think that is wonderfull!

I notice that Fuelman went to the trouble to give a couple good alternatives and for the modeler to take on some responsibility of his own to "correctly run" and to find a fuel "which meets or exceeds .... requirements". Jerry you went to the trouble to very nicely further define definitions.

What I see here is is a lot of good info that modelers, new folks and veterans alike, can use to expand there knowledge base.

Good job Fuelman and Jerry, thats what this site is about.
Old 07-16-2003, 03:35 AM
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Default Castor vs Synthetic - 4 stroke problems

Jerry Mr Wildcat i recentily got some of your ys 20/2o blend. I am getting a new ys 110 soon and i am planning on using it for break in and regular use on the ys. I know ys doesnt recommend over 2 or 3% caster in their fuel but i thought for break in only i would mix a couple ozs per gallon for just a little added protection . I have been running ys motors for 12 years and have used every fuel from cool power heli to sig . Whats your opinion on putting a little caster in with your blend. I did notice when i ran some of your ys blend in my ys 63 it didnt put out much smoke at all. the engine ran great but i like to see a good smoke trail on my ys motors because of their high performance load.
Old 07-17-2003, 08:01 PM
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Default Castor vs Synthetic - 4 stroke problems

I've been running four strokes since the open rocker O.S..60 came out and its still on a plane. I buy synthetic and throw 2 oz. of castor in a gallon as Clarence Lee suggests and have never had any problem. The castor prevents rusted bearings and I've never had to replace one. I don't use any after run oil either. I think a combo is best.

Max
Old 07-18-2003, 02:45 AM
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Default Castor vs Synthetic - 4 stroke problems

Ok thanks for the info i ran my YS110 today and wildcat 20/20 blend i put in 4ozs of caster and it seems to run ok but i am going to start using the COOL Power Heli 30% nitro blend again since i can get it at 1800 bucks a gallon versas 24 to 30 other places . The ys motors really love the cool power and the low viscosity oil especially the new Dingo. It and the Magnum is the only fuel i will use in the Dingo . If you use high viscosity oil it will dead stick as soon as you accerate from a idle in the air to fuel throttle allmost wrecka new Hangar nine Taylor craft because of a couple deadsteads with Other fuels such as Sig Heli and regular oiled fuels . I wont use any caster in the Dingo per Ys instructions for that motor . It is a whole new motor for ys and with the direct fuel injection and lower end being all different than any other four stroke. Thanks for the info Note the 4 ozs of caster was put into 2 gallons
Old 07-28-2003, 12:57 PM
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Default Castor vs Synthetic - 4 stroke problems

here's a good web site for the castor vs. synthetic argument.
http://www.powermasterfuels.com/facts2.htm

Lots of info,

Max

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