Which Fuel to use?
 

Hello, i was wondering wich of both these nitro fuels would be better (for a Traxxas Revo 3.3(if that matters)), i have the options of both Morgan Backyard Basher 20% and XP Car Extreme 20%, i heard people say Morgan fuel is good, but i never heard of XP fuel, any help appreciated, thanks.

RE: Wich Fuel to use?
 

Any 20% fuel is good. When you buy that "car" stuff, you are paying a fortune for a name. It's the same stuff airplane guys use.

RE: Wich Fuel to use?
 

odonnell 20%

RE: Wich Fuel to use?
 

Which probably costs twice what Cool power, Power Master, Wildcat, etc 20% costs. YS20-20 is 20 bucks a gallon. You car guys are paying that for a quart.

RE: Wich Fuel to use?
 

cool power is plane fuel and has to much oil for cars. also might not get as much power with it. odonnell is 25$ a gallon

RE: Wich Fuel to use?
 

well the airplane fuels are fine, more oil its better for the engines as well, for people who race all day long thoose fuels with less oils and the big names is good, but for most of us who just have fun and play i really see no point in buying racing fuels, its actually a waste!!

i have a tamiya TNX i i use my own mixed fuel i run about 7 to 8% nitro and it runs perfectly! with the stockl engine and about 17 to 20% oil, plenty of power and acceleration of the block, i can even wheelie sometimes on the grass

RE: Wich Fuel to use?
 

Too much oil, huh? Funny how OS recommends no less than 18 % oil and that is what cool power has. I have several OS 21VF-C car engines and that's what the instructions say.

RE: Wich Fuel to use?
 

Additional Fuel Information

If you read the R/C car magazines, engine instruction manuals or talk to local racers, you'll likely find conflicting information about car fuels. The main controversy seems to focus on how much and what type of oil is needed for a car fuel.

Here the straight scoop based on over 15 years of experience that includes working closely with engine manufactures, industry experts, top-level racers and the results of testing literally hundreds of formulas in all types of car engines and conditions.

Why Not Airplane Fuel

Car engines operate in a totally different environment than do airplane engines. Airplane engines spend a great deal of their running life at full rpm, they have a constant airflow from the prop to aid in cooling and instant throttle response and acceleration is not as critical as with a car engine.

Car engines spend most of their life accelerating from one corner to the next and are seldom at full RPM for more than a few seconds. They rely on an oversize heat sink head to dissipate combustion heat and racers actually tune car engines based on throttle response.

Fuel designed for airplanes typically have from 15 to 20% oil. While the manufactures that truly understand the requirements of car engines typically put 8 to 12% oil in their car fuel.

Why 8% to 12% Oil

Using high oil content fuels (above 15%) in gas car engines won't provide improved engine life, as some would expect. Through extensive testing we've discovered the point of diminishing return as far as oil content to engine life is actually around 8% for most car engines. In other words any more oil than 8% in the fuel does noting to improve the life of a car engine. In fact the secondary effects of high oil content fuels can actually cause engine damage by encouraging over lean runs. Here's how.

Using high oil content fuel causes a car engine to be unresponsive during acceleration acting as if the engine were running rich. Typically when using high oil content fuel, in order to get crisp acceleration and response, an engine will need to be adjusted overly lean. In addition the high oil content prevents lean bog when an engine is over-leaned thus allowing the engine to run at this lean setting without the customary telltale lean bog warning letting you know the engine is overheating.

In summary, high oil content fuels don't give added protection. The point of diminishing return from a protection standpoint in a gas car application is about 8% oil depending on the oil type and engine. Anymore oil than this doesn't offer added protection and has potential secondary effects that reduce performance and can actually cause you to over lean your engine in an attempt to get crisp throttle response and acceleration. Do yourself a favor and follow these two rules:

RE: Wich Fuel to use?
 

You go right ahead and use 8% oil. I'll use 18 and use my engines for years. "Lean Bog"???? Now there's a swell new term that I've never heard in 50 years of dealing with model engines.

15 whole years? Wow. I've been doing it for 50 and I was also Hobby Shack's engine repair tech and GOT PAID and made a living out of repairing and instructing on the use of model engines including CAR engines as have guys like Clarence Lee, George Aldrich and Dave Gierke.

RE: Wich Fuel to use?
 

I remember once at a race a guy was running some airplane fuel . He had no power at all . We asked what he was running , think it was wilcat or cool power. He said that he was told he could use it and has for few months he got into nitro . We gave him some O`Donnel 20% and he was in shock the difference. So I guess if you just put around the yard ok then . If you do any racing , you sure won`t be winning with that stuff.

RE: Wich Fuel to use?
 

it really doesn't have to deal with racing Dawman! everyone wants to have their cars running their best even when we are playing! that is why it is only logical that we use the proper fuel for theproper purpose:)

RE: Wich Fuel to use?
 

IMO the car engines are under a lot more stress thant the aircraft engine. Only speed racers prop their planes for 20K plus RPM. Constantly accelerating from idle to full speed is a lot more stress than running a constant 12K or so. I would think the car engines would last a lot longer with more oil. Airplane racers have been known to lower the oil for more power as well. But at least they are aware that they may have to junk the engine after a short time.

RE: Wich Fuel to use?
 

NO S**t ! I was saying if these people want to use airplane fuel let them . I made a comparison as to how it performs using the right fuel . I would never use airplane fuel and beleive no one should in cars . People want to be cheap and get that stuff . I`ve been through this years ago when I see people using the wrong fuel , you try to convince them to use the proper fuels , but all they look at is the price . So I figure if thats what they want and won`t change, heck with them . Also if you took the time to read , all I said is that you sure won`t be winning any races with airplane fuel.

RE: Wich Fuel to use?
 

You do know that they are over charging you for the fuel, don't you? Fuel with less oil should cost less not more. I would consider mixing my on fuel, experment with fuel and glow plugs. I suspect you would have an edge on the competition.

RE: Wich Fuel to use?
 

Won't win any races using airplane fuel??? Would you like to see all my boat racing trophies? I raced Namba class A hydro, Class B hydro and Class A outboard. Used 15 to 20% nitro with 18% oil. Boat racing is just as demanding on engines as car racing. As a matter of fact, I even used a OS21VF-C in my A hydro. That is a CAR engine. We used them to eliminate the hassle of water cooling. With a tuned pipe they turned around 26,000. That was on AIRPLANE fuel as you call it.

Don't tell me that car racing is all that different from boats. Boats can be worse especially if you lost the water cooling. Or you blew off and had no load on the engine. With a tiny prop and tuned pipe response was almost instant. That's why we all ran RPM titanium rods.

Oh and I used those same Car engines in CARS using the same fuel. Worked just fine. I still have 4 of those engines new in the box. I bought them 8 to the case diestly from Japan

RE: Wich Fuel to use?
 

more oil does not mean better than less most of the time yes. but racing fuels use higher grade synthetics which offers more power
with almost the same protection as high oil cheap plane fuel.

RE: Wich Fuel to use?
 

You have been reading too much marketing hype. If it is so much better than why do car engines rarely make it past 4 gallons, even the backyard bashers? Why do car engines only have a super short warranty, generally 30 or so days? Show me a car engine run with car fuel that makes it to 400 hours of run time and I will take your statement into consideration.

I only know of one company that uses a high enough grade synthetic in their car fuel to warrent such a statement as you made, and it is not the fuel you mention.

The only reason car fuel costs so much is because all the car companies have somebody else make it for them and that just adds another middleman into the equation. Trinity, HPI, Traxxas, MegaTech, Orion, Blue Thunder, White Lightning, Duratrax, Red Alert, all of them. All those full page adds in all the car magizines, they cost a small fortune, you the customer are paying for all that by giving up the big bucks to use your favorite car fuel. Byron makes car fuel and charges a huge premium for it just because everybody else does, so they get away with it too.

RE: Wich Fuel to use?
 

Skimping on oil is the death of engines.

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RE: Wich Fuel to use?
 

who is the one company and any nitro should last longer than 4 gallons if tuned right

RE: Wich Fuel to use?
 

It's not a nitro engine, it's a GLOW engine. Runs on GLOW fuel and ignited by a GLOW plug.

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RE: Wich Fuel to use?
 

Cool power can have any amount of nitro you want up to about 40%. It has 18% oil and that ain't too much. Just keep listening to the hype and replacing worn out engines by using too little oil.

RE: Wich Fuel to use?
 

The only engraved in stone fact about car fuel is there is way too much BS spread about it.

Ed M.

RE: Wich Fuel to use?
 

The point is plane fuel is bad for performance and makes engines run hotter.

Car fuel makes more power and runs cooler and thats a fact.

RE: Wich Fuel to use?
 

"Car fuel" has a higher nitromethane content and nitro methane makes an engine run hotter. THAT'S why it's added. Heat =Power. Just for grins, why don't you get a copy of Clarence Lee's book, the R/C engine VolIII and read the section on fuels. Oil is one of the many methods of REMOVING heat from an engine. All that oil coming out of the exhaust has heat in it. If it's not in the engine anymore it took the heat out of the engine. There are several good books on the subject.

Urban legend does not make an engine run.

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RE: Wich Fuel to use?
 

first of all, slow down!! you are getting a little too hyped and personal!!! second, if you read your own post, you DID say "So I guess if you just put around the yard ok then "

RE: Which Fuel to use?
 

"Ok then" if thats what they want to use . They are not going to listen anyway , all they see is $$.

RE: Which Fuel to use?
 

Yup that's what we see. $$$$$ as in burned up engines from lack of oil.

RE: Which Fuel to use?
 

hi My LHS actually has this XP Car XTREME Fuel 20% and 30% for a really good price. I have a RS4 type SS and just wanted to know what % would be best. He was saying that 30% more power and runs cooler. But I thought that going higher meant shorter engine life. And if anyone has used this fuel can you give me some feedback on it. They don't carry Odonnels and Traxxas top fuel is so overpriced here its like 44 bux! Thanks

RE: Which Fuel to use?
 

I would just run 20% . I only run 30% in my engines that have been extremely modded . But you will hear different sides from people .

RE: Which Fuel to use?
 

i think that the really important thing is that no matter what fuel you chose stay with it...i run byrons 20% and thats all ...not to say you cant experiment between brands but if you break in with 20% nitro then goto 30 you have basicly just resized your sleeve for 30% and you wont have the compression you had if you go back to 20%...

RE: Which Fuel to use?
 

Nitromethane is an OXIDIZER and generates heat. Heat is power and that's why we use it. It does not make an engine run cooler.

RE: [Awaiting Approval]
 

not true , in a few cases I`ve had to use my 30 % when I was out of 20% and have gone back to 20% . It does not resize the sleeve nor loose compression . That is just some story that was made up . I have experimented with different fuels and % in the past 5 years and there are no facts that it happens .

RE: [Awaiting Approval]
 

that is true!! when you are low on funds, don't you put 87 instead of 93?

RE: [Awaiting Approval]
 

If you are talking octane rating, there are very few cars that need it today and using it in a car that doesn't need it gives absolutely no benefit. Just costs and makes you feel better.

RE: [Awaiting Approval]
 

Correct. This is just another of the urban myths about ABx type engines based on the idea that high nitro makes them run hotter where in fact sometimes they'll actually run cooler. But the differences in temperature (hotter or cooler) is very small and less than you'll have between running them in summer/winter or full/part throttle. But if you go from 20% to 30% and don't retune then you'll have a much hotter engine because the mixture will be too lean.

RE: [Awaiting Approval]
 

Urban myth???? Nitromethane DOES make an engine run hotter. That's why we use it. Heat is power and that's where the power increase comes from when you use nitro methane. That's also why little engines like the Cox 049's need high nitro content fuel. They are very small and give off there heat very quickly. The high nitro content of Cox fuel 25 to 35% nitro is what keeps these little guys hot so they run well.

RE: [Awaiting Approval]
 

well ya . Maybe thats why they think it resizes the sleeve . They don`t retune and end up wearing the sleeve out .

RE: [Awaiting Approval]
 

It's not an urban myth nitro methane is an oxidizer and it makes an engine run hotter. That's why we use the stuff. heat is power and we use nitro because it generates heat which increases power. Also, running and ABC engine hotter DOES cause the cylinder to expand more. That's why all the manufacturers as well as the engine columnists like Clarence Lee, Joe Wagner, Dave Gierke, George Aldrich etc tell you to break an ABC in on the fuel you are going to use. That's also why as an ABC slowly wears you can use less nitro. The engine runs cooler and the cylinder expands less and compression is regained.

Get yourself a copy of the R/C Engine Volume III by Clarence Lee or the 2 Stoke Glow Engine by Dave Gierke and see what the guys who know what they are talking about have to say about the subject. The first is from the RCM anthology and the second from Model Airplane News.

RE: [Awaiting Approval]
 

I don`t need a book . I have my own test results and facts .

RE: [Awaiting Approval]
 

Those who get all their knowledge from books and magazines will never try anything themselves. It's surprising how wrong the books can be sometimes.