Dale Gribble

My Feedback: (4)

I ask myself this question often. What is keeping AE, Losi, Traxxas, Kyosho, OFNA and others out of the 1/5 scale market?

If I look at it from a product management perspective, I think that a) while the quantity and demand of 1/5 scale v. 1/8 and 1/10 scale products is lower, the volume is likely sufficient for revenue potential and profit b) the margin is greater on kit and parts sales for 1/5 scale, c) the HPI 5 and platform has created a huge aftermarket, d) the Baja has created a large and growing enthusiast base and a hunger for more 1/5 scale products and competition. The development time and engineering hours needed to design a B44 or Losi 8IGHT are not exponentially shorter than designing a 1/5 scale. A diff design is a diff design whether it is in 1/8 or 1/5 scale. I am sure that the manufacturers' contract manufacturers can handle assembling the larger products.

So, I pose this question to you- What is keeping the major RC manufacturers out of 1/5 scale and why?

bbuzzard

My Feedback: (5)

It's still a recession in their minds and they fear the lack of sales, I guess...[8D]

speedypetey61

I'm sure there more concerned about spending thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars in R&D and production, just to have those mindless people in china just sit back and copy it like they have done with everything from ladies handbags to our RC's.
Making there cheap, fragile garbage, flooding the market with there crappy copies like there attempt at bootleg movies, everything these people do is crap...even the food! lol Well, it makes me crap, but you get the point.


One more time...Crap!

DarkFire989

They probably think HPI has cornered the market so well that they dont want to risk entering, and maybe the market isnt there right now for them.

elven wizard

I think a company innovative like Traxxas or the other brand names would make a splash if they entered the 1/5 scale market. Can you picture a EZ start, 2 speed gearbox design on a Slash 4x4 1/5 scale looking Rc. Would be killer ! I think there's many factors why brand name company's haven't put there 1/5 models out yet. This country if not the world is still in a recession despite the economy getting slightly better. On another note : As I look at the nitro monster truck world. Traxxas changed everything when they came out with the Tmaxx .15 It really was the first of it's kind, plush suspension, reverse, push button starting. ( Even though the Kyosho Beetle came out with reverse, it didn't compare to the Traxxas ) Then soon after that the other manufacters took a look at the Tmaxx and and made there own version of the nitro monster truck. I think big name company's are waiting for leaked photo's or hints "who gets out of the gates first" of a 1/5 scale from the other competitors that are in the nitro/electric world. I am sure Losi is watching Traxxas and Traxxas is watching Losi and AE is watching both and everyone's watching everyone of who starts this 1/5 thing first. You can bet that behind closed doors there engineering and manufactering departments have there own versions of a 1/5 model. I am sure more than anything designing something is one thing but manufactering something that is real good in quality and durabilty, better and more affordable and more fun than there rivals is another thing. Most important of all how much profitability can they make gettin into 1/5. There sure doing good in electric and nitro why take a chance dipping into 1/5 even though Hpi has been sucessful. After a years time debut no company wants a forum of there model with people's negatives about it. The Rc's cheapness could come at the cost of longevity. Also I think the company's that have been in 1/5 already like MCD, FG, HPI, etc in the last year or so have up't the ante on there products. Another thing - I know a whole lot of people in Rc, but the majority of people I know are either in nitro or electric. I always ask how about getting into 1/5 scale ? then they ask what does it cost ? I say you can get into 1/5 scale under a grand or for something real good it can be a few grand. They always say "no way" I can't afford it. What I'm saying there is a large percentage of people that just can't afford the costs of buying a 1/5 scale. All these factors are taken into account and companys will have to adjust to that market share.



[size=4]Elven Wizard's Prediction's : I think in time you will see something released from Traxxas, Losi, and AE. First it will be from Traxxas. Hpi will have something new and not a 5b or 5t 4wd but a HPI 1/5 scale 4WD truck. I think it will be in less than 5 yrs time this will all happen.

one2boost

I was also wondering the same thing when I was resarching buying an LST XXL.  I am surprised that none of the other large RC manufacturers have not offered such a kit as of yet.  I recall back in the late 80's when Losi came out with the JRXT, it took Associated a year or so to come up with the RC10T.  Then I also recall Associated came out with the nitro version of the RC10T, then a couple of years later Losi came out with the NXT.  As most have noticed I have not really kept up with the other brands at that time.  In the end, I ended up abandonning the thought of the LST XXL and got myself the HPI Baja 5T.  I am sure in a couple of years the other large manufacturers will come up with something.

Dirty_Vinylpusher

There was an interesting doco called "Fakes" a few years back.
It showed what REALLY goes on in China and why things are the way they are with counterfeit/copied products.

If you have an open mind to things and want to hear the other side of the story, it's a good watch.



Alternatively, keep hating those "mindless people"

rckiwi

This is a good question... but it's not going to happen by any of the mentioned manufacturers on there own, some I would think may look at or will source cars from LS manufacturers and redesign some parts just like CEN has already but I doubt any of them will design and make there own cars!

Why? most of the manufacturers know that Europe is the biggest market for LS cars, I would say Germany alone would sell more LS cars in 6 months to what HPI Baja's sell in 1 year in the USA. LS is a growing market but no where near what the gamble would be for a manufacturer to invest in 10's of thousands of dollars to build from ground up an unknown market.

Just my 2c worth

splcrazy

i wouldnt mind having a 4x4 1/5 scale monster truck from traxxas . I have a traxxas revo3.3 but havnt touched it since i got my baja5b , traxxas make nice high quality rc things lol and so simple too, still hpi is taking too long to release a 4x4 1/5th monster truck , all they been doing is continuing to milk the crap out of the 5b and then extend the milking with the 5t versions and still no damn 1/5th 4x4 monster truck.

tonystott

SpeedyPete,
Can you pleae provide OFFICIAL confirmation that King Motor Bajas are illegal copies and not made under licence? In another forum, it was stated that the King Baja was released within TWOMONTHS of the HPI one. That is simply not enough time to copy, or reverse engineer, and build the tooling. It therefore seems far more likely that BOTH KM&HPI licenced a design from the designer, and/or shared the same tooling. I am also unsure where Rovan fits into this.

So unless you can provide proof that "those mindless people in China just sit back and copy it" Isuggest you hold back

bbuzzard

My Feedback: (5)

mooman007uk

[quote]There was an interesting doco called ''Fakes'' a few years back.
It showed what REALLY goes on in China and why things are the way they are with counterfeit/copied products.
If you have an open mind to things and want to hear the other side of the story, it's a good watch.[quote]


Yep, the Chinese were not the instigators of bootlegging DVD's and everything else ...unscrupulous crooks in the Western world...ie USA, Europe and Eastern...Russia, etc got the counterfeit ball rolling...they sought manufacturers in China where the law can't reach to make the knock offs...so blame your greedy countrymen and organized crime not the Chinese.



absolutely, Europe has been into 1/5 for over 20 yrs...FG have sold more gassers than hpi has nitro, electric and gas put together. the USA is a new potentially huge market but it's not taking off like you'd expect...why? In N.America we have more interest in full size motor sport and it's a lot easier to do here as opposed to Europe...Quadding, snowmobiles rock crawling, dune running, dirt bikes, hot rods, etc etc cheap to get into in relative terms and millions of places to do it...Europe...just about all the land is owned privately by, for the most part, mean people who wont let you step foot on it, and all the equipment needed for the above mentioned pastimes are hugely expensive over there..so even if you can find a bit of dirt that isn't guarded by hounds and people with guns you gotta have deep pockets to buy your toy of choice. Boys will be boys and we want motorsports so I believe that's why 1/5 is so big over there.

FS have sold nearly as many units in Germany alone than the 5b/t has globally...the 5 platform is big over here but very small potatoes in Euroville... so i have to disagree with that one

apart from the economy being total pants around the world still, I reckon the main reason traxxas etc aren't coming in is mainly the market here...N.America, despite it's 330million population, simply doesn't buy enough 1/5 to justify the development costs, even when times are good, and Europe is going to be a very hard market to get into, you don't see too many 5b/t's in races over there, hpi's market share probably isn't even half of 1% (UK is a little different) so something new will need to be real good...as mentioned FG, MCD etc are improving their models and raising the bar.

Many people it seems want HPI or traxxas to build a 1/5 4wd monster truck...if they did they probably wouldn't sell enough to cover their costs and that's why they aint building them....if traxxas are making good coin in smaller scales where the volume is then why take a risk and enter a relatively small market that stands a good chance of losing you money.

nitrohead5300

I believe that bbuzzard is right, its the recession , business are being cautious with new product lines. But I believe that 1/5 scale will slowly continue to grow. I use to run 1/8 scale and 1/10 scale onroad on parking lots. Fuel , motors tires and belts just got too expensive especially fuel so I quit running them. Then my wife surprised me with a 1/5 scale MCD Rally Car. I told her it was too expensive and she told me she payed for it with her own money !! SOOOOOOOOO I shut my mouth. Much to my surprise gas ,tires and maintance was alot less than what I was spending a year for my 1/8 and 1/10 scale. My point is the intial investment for 1/5 scale my be more but in alot of instances maintance and fuel expenses my be less. I run my MCD Rally car onroad only. Best parking lot basher I have ever owned

Dale Gribble

My Feedback: (4)

I would like to see HPIs product sales #s. See how much 1/8 and 1/10 outsells 1/5 gassers in the US and worldwide. That would really help me understand the 1/5 market better.

hpibajaforum is the highest traffic RC car site I am on anymore, even equal to or over RCU. One platform has generated that much interest! I just don't know how the interest translates into $$$ for HPI. It could be a wash for all I know.

This is not a clone v. HPI DEBATE! FYI, not every discussion needs to revolve around this endless debate. However, to clarify since there is misinformation here, the HPI 5B was released and started shipping to customers in Sep-Oct 2006. The King Motors Baja didn't start shipping to customers until 2008, even after the Baja 5B SS was shipping in 2007. I confirmed this by reviewing forums threads and dates of first recipients of each of the platforms on a few forums and by looking at the earliest youtube video dates for the Baja and the King Motors Baja. There was 100% without a doubt a 1-2 year delay in the products hitting the market.

mooman007uk

I'd like to see that too...I do know in 20 years FG have sold well over 100000 units so 5000 a yr...i think the 5 platform, last i heard, was up to about 20000 so about the same per year

i bet nitro and electric outsell 1/5 by 100 to 1 or more..example: there are easily a couple of hundred elec and nitro users in a 50km radius of me (there's organized racing/track etc just down the road done by the lhs) last count there were about 5 gassers and 2 sold theirs so including me I know of 4 ...go 100km( not including the mainland) and there's about 10 of us.
Little Jimmy's mum or dad will buy them a electric and maybe a nitro as they're cheaper to buy at the store so you see a lot of younger generations with them. Most LHS have 5b's sitting there for $1000 which to Jimmy';s mum and dad is a ridiculous price for a toy car so he gets the 200 dollar noiseless duracell thingy instead.

and it's official hpi have discontinued the 5T, the 5sc is taking it's place so not sure if HPI are having a good go of it in the 1/5 market at the moment, you don't axe something that is selling well.

wolfie1

once you get a half decent 1/5 petrol you just dont want to go back to nitro, i am talking about personal experience here, my first was a xrc2 buggy which was a real lot of fun and the engine was spot on (no tuning involved) but the chassis and drivetrain could have been a lot better so i still run my nitros, since i got my blackout the only time when i take a nitro out is either i have broken my blackout or am out with my mates and we all have our truggys out. so once you take that step to 1/5 petrol nitro just arent the same even my beloved savage xl has only been out once in 2 months considering it used to be every weekend and evenings after work in the summer when the days are longer and warmer

racetruck

i don't under stand why the US MFG has'nt and don't want to jump on the 1/5 scale band wagon we have email robison racing to see if they would make gears for a 1/5 scale and they told us no way will they make any gears for us i don't get the reason behind it maybe all of the guys in 1/5 scale needs to show more interest and email all these companys and maybe they will take notice then

Dale Gribble

My Feedback: (4)

I think the 5T and 5SC are too close in design and appearance to both stay on the market personally. I am not sure it is a sign of the times or not...

speedypetey61

Dale,

At first I thought HPI was just too lazy and content with there design of the 5B, but now I understand why they didn't make any design changes to the 5SC version, HPI was just smart enough not to totally redesign a whole new platform just to be ripped off again!

bbuzzard

My Feedback: (5)

I am pretty sure HPI doesn't hate on the sales of their Baja parts to non-HPI Baja owners...in fact even though there are some vendors who bash clones, they still are selling their aftermarket parts without prejudice.

Dale Gribble

My Feedback: (4)

I agree bbuzzard. I recognize that directly mounting a legal offensive towards King Motors or Rovan is a lost cause; nobody is successful in suing a Chinese manufacturer in China for IP infringement or blatant copies like the KM Baja. China manufacturers have raised reverse engineering into an art form across many industries from telecom to toys to weapons. Challenging them legally is like pissing in the wind.

However, there has to be some reason that HPI hasn't pursued legal action against the clone importers into the US or Europe. I reckon that you are right because 1) The importers aren't big companies; they are small mom and pop operations so there is no business benefit to spend the legal fees to pursue them individually and 2) The clones bring them a bunch of part sales. So, the lost sales to clones is probably more than offset by spare part sales. I think that HPI could probably get all importers to legally stop bringing the clones into the US, but they have ran the numbers and decided to sit passively out of the debate and sell parts.

speedypetey61

HPI is not making any money off there replacement parts from stolen design baja customers, the aftermarket companies are the ones making a killing, the people who stole there design are the winners here, nobody else.
Must cost them $35 to build it, after all the crappy alloy parts KM makes for there "extreme" version lol Selling it upwards of $800 is just a joke.

Dale Gribble

My Feedback: (4)

Ok, again, not a clone v. non-clone debate. I (and everyone else) am pretty sure where you stand on the issue bud.

speedypetey61

(deep breath) ok..lol

nitrohead5300

What I don't understand is why HPI has not made a 4 wheel drive BAJA they are going to need it for the INLINE TWIN motors!! I heard they are reasonable in price and dyno at 10 -12 hp.