SAVAGEJIM

I was watching these vid by FastEddy on how to build and adjust the Elcon clutch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8eLh...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6Qxr...eature=related

In the second vid, he said to get about a 7500RPM engagement, you turn in all 4 grubs to 1.5 turns.
What I want to do is get about either about 8000 to 8500 RPM launch, the clutch engaging at 5000RPM gives for sucky take-offs (too low of RPM range, out of the torque range of the engine).

For anyone who has an Elcon clutch, whould turning in the setscrews in by 2 turns give the 8000-8500 RPM launch engagement? If not, what turn setting then? (1.75tuns?)

Also, would Lauterbacher clutches have identical grub settings as the Elcon to get the same launching RPMs?

slawhammer

Hey jim..you can get different springs...stronger ones....for both clutch's
I feel the LB clutch is made better........there in 2 shoe,3 shoe.& 4 shoe design.....The 4 shoe would be better for even clutch engagement....
LB adjustment is simular to the elcon....I will see if I can find the info on the LB clutch..I have it wrote down some place.......
Best to you my friend.......Slawhammer..............

SAVAGEJIM

Thanks Slaw! I see LB clutchs in most of the big seller's sites, like FG Supply, Hobbythek, LSRC, DDM, etc, and they do look better.

As for the spring settings (which springs you drop in), I am curious as to what the screw turn settings would be (i.e. for the soft spring, 2turns in for 8000RPM launch, 1.5turns in for medium springs to get 8000RPM launch, 1turn in for hard spring, etc.).

I hit the net and see people bantering about their LB and Slcon clutches, but unfortunately, I have yet to find anyone who specifically describes how many turns in he has his screws set at to get what launching RPM.

pwaicon

I couldn’t tell you what RPM’s my Elcon clutch engages but I can tell you where I have it set. I get the top of the grub screw flush with the top of the internal threads, I hope that makes sense, I then turn it one full turn. On my Titan I have it at about 1 ½ turns, I tired 2 turns but it seemed too high to me, I would say it was much higher than 8000 RPM’s. I find the screw setting is all going to depend on the engine, pipe, and gearing you are using on your car. I also find that the clutch works better once it has warmed up.

Apache-

There are lightened sets of shoes from Elcon that go to the higher amount of RPM's you discribe.
All Elcon clutches are nowadays delivered like that.
many racers here use that clutch for off-road as it simply one of the best race clutches.

The LB 3 shoe aluminium one is very good also but much more expensive.
The 3 shoe one is usefull in on-road, not off-road. There all drivers in on-road use this nowadays.
Wear rate is however much higher on both the shoes and the bell with the aluminium shoes. So expensive to run and maintain.

For off-road you want a teflon clutch, especialy with sand conditions, that is if you want something that does last longer than 3 runs...

The set screws should not be turned in on the elcon clutch more then 1.5~1.75 turns maximum.
Otherwise you reach the block height of the spring.
The clutch shoe then cannot move out completely and the clutch then cannot engage fully.
This gives you the higher RPM, but will lead very soon in just smoking up your shoes as they would be constantly slipping.
So keep the set screws under the 1.75 turns in.

Go for the lightened shoes if you want a higher RPM range.
It is fully exchangeable with the black shoes they had in the clutch package before.
Now the shoes are white and from a higher grade teflon as the black ones they delivered before.

We use the white ones on high grippy fast tracks where you can put the engine power down to the ground. Where it is slippery you are faster with a clutch that does engage earlier.
8000RPM is already a lot for off-roading to my taste. That is close to on-road racing already.
Most off-road racers have set their clutch at 6000~7000RPM so you get more useable power at the start of acceleration, instead of just spinning wheels.
In rain on astro turf we lower it even to 4500RPM with the heavier black shoes they delivered in the past.

On the new shoes I run just half a turn in on the set screw which does the job fine in most circumstances.
It is then around 6500RPM the first point engaging and at about 7000RPM it is I think fully engaged.
This is difficult to say but I estimate it slips over about a range of 500 RPM now.
hope this helps.

SAVAGEJIM

Thanks so much guys for the info, this is exactly what I am looking for!

Right now, with the black shoes, I estimate that I already engage at the 4000-5000 RPM range. And now that you mention it, in low grip situations, I do feel that the take-off is superior to higher RPM launch (the wheels spin too much in a burn-out).

I believe I am currently about 1 turn in, I will begin with like what the FastEddy vids suggest: 1.25 turns in for about 7000 RPM launch, and play with the other settings (1.5 turns and 1.75 turns).

Also, thans so much for the tip about not exceeding 1.75 turns; otherwise, I would have found out the hard way, and in my stubborness during bashing, probably have cooked the shoes!

Apache-

With the black shoes you cannot get much higher engagement point then 6000RPM when the set screws are turned in 1.5 turns. That is what I measured with the rpm device in the past. After shortly warming up it even lowers down a bit the start of engagement point.
This is due to the top surface getting warm and more grippy from the black shoes.

The black ones are great for dusty slippery conditions or in wet but I find the new white ones running better as they keep engaging more stable from the start.
They do not suffer this getting more grippy effect.
I drilled out the black ones in the past which makes them lighter as well to raise the RPM level if that is what you are looking for. That is something you can do easily yourself.
But be sure you do it symmetric on at least each opposite shoe.
As otherwise you get a weight differance on your crank shaft putting unnescesarry extra forces to the bearings ones it rotates.
Taking out some material makes a considerable raise in RPM level on the black shoes if that is what you are looking for.
If it is to much the raise in RPM and you cannot lower enough by releasing the set screw, you can always screw in a set screw in the hole you drilled which adds weight and then lowers back the RPM engagement point.
a 4.5mm hole is good as you can use a 5mm setscrew for putting back in if you like.
This is what I drilled in the past, 2 holes per shoe.

46u

My Feedback: (3)

SAVAGEJIM I am thinking about trying this clutch.
http://www.davesmotors.com/s.nl/c.88...t.A/id.2423/.f

SAVAGEJIM

Thanks 46u for the tip! I didnt know the LB 4shoe clutches are now that cheap! I remeber them being much higher in price. Considering that the LB is now the same price as Elcon (looking in the DDM site also), I am now considering getting the LB and transferring the Elcon one to my 2WD. That way, I can get a feel of how the LB feels at launch as compared to the Elcon.

Apache,
Thanks also for the tip of lightening the black shoes. As for drilling, where did you dill yours? What diameter drill bit did you use? (The bit size of course will give me an idea of how much material is removed.)
I am considering using the holes in the retaining plate as a template for drilling two holes (see the pic I attached below from DDM). By using this method, I am thinking about using a hobby knife to mark the circle, then mark a "X" in the diameter of the circle to make little railroad crossbuck symbols. The crossbucks will serve as a target ("X" marking the center of the circle) and this will help me to ensure that I drill exactly where I need to drill.
As for where you drilled your shoes, did you drill similarly?

46u

My Feedback: (3)

All so the LB shoes seem to be cheaper then many others.

Apache-

@Savagejim:
Where you are showing the red rounds in the fisrt pic of the elcon clutch with the yellow background, yes that is how I did it, but more to the outside.
The further you move the holes away from the center the bigger the effect and the later the shoe engages [ Fcp= (m*v²)/r ].
I drilled 4.5mm holes. But I find the new white shoes do a better job as mentioned before as that material does not show the stick effect.

The LB clutch lacks the pins the Elcon one has at the center shaft of the clutch housing.
The wear on the outer surface of the shoe of the LB clutch is uneven. Wear starts at the edge of each shoes as they slightly tilt when engaging.
Where the pin of the elcon one prevents this effect and makes the shoe engage over its full surface.

I like the design of the Contrast clutch but never tried one thusfar.
Does anyone know if that is any good and lasting?

46u

My Feedback: (3)

Is this on the 4 shoes clutch? The have 3 or 4 different clutches. I know many running the LB 4 shoe clutch and they say the shoes last a VERY long time. But thanks for your thoughts.

SAVAGEJIM

Thanks for the tip, particularly on removing mass closer to the edge. I though about calculating it and trying to equate the centripital force with the force of the springs (each spring against one shoe), but my problem is knowing the spring constants of those used in the Elcons.
So, I, like other RC users, have to simply play with it until it hits the right engagement RPM.
As for calculating, I guess I can measure up the shoes, then calculate their center or mass depending on where I drill the holes, and see if that makes a difference. I will have to guess at first at what the spring constants are, I have not yet devised a means to measure the spring constants with stuff I have around and in my tool boxes.

SAVAGEJIM

Well, I finally broke down and bought some white shoes to go into my clutch, I took out the Elcon, thoroughly cleaned them off with an old toothbrush and denatured alchohol, and slapped on the new whit shoes. These things are way LIGHT, I mean at only 1.25 turns in, I have to reve the engine way high before the weight of the shoes overcome the strngth of the springs. Probably too high, in excess of 8000 RPM from the feel.

I need to now disaseble the damn RC again, my CB (it is the 2speed CB) does not have the adjustment holes [:@]

I will trye to back out the screws to 0.75 turns in and see if I can get a nice crisp 6500-7000 RPM launch.

Apache-

Take the set screws out fully if it is too high to your liking with the white shoes.
You will be then at about 6200-6500RPM
I run them at a 0.5 turn in mostly which is about 7000RPM.
I go only to 1 full turn in when it is very grippy, like on astro turf tracks, then you are getting close to 8000RPM.

You do not need to take all off.
Make sure you drill a hole in the clutch bell so you can put through your allen wrench in order to acces your set screws.
5mm drill or so makes it easy for accessing the set screws.
Change the setting is then less then a 1 minute job.

Be sure to debur the inner side of your clutch bell after the drilling of the hole so it won't damage your shoes!

Apache-

Yes that is on the LB 4 shoe clutch.
I did not say they wear quick, they do not. That is just the effect of a teflon shoe.
But they do wear on one side.
So the shoes are unequally wearing due that they tilt when engaging as there is no pin on the bottom where the teflon shoe is guided when it moves out.
In this respect I think the Elcon clutch is better designed.
Other then that the principle is fully the same.

SAVAGEJIM

Thans so much for the tip. This morning, I took took off the CB again, and I actually adjusted the screws to 0.75 turns in, and I actually like the feel of the launch. It is rather high for loose dirt, but for grass, the tires actually grip really well. I feel like it is about a 7000 RPM launch, maybe 7500 launch. If I get tired of the rooster tails when launching it from dead stop on loose dirt, I will back out to 0.50 turns in like your setting.

Here is one of the shoes of the teflon set

BTW, this is the set that I bought, PN 18620/2
http://www.rctuningraalte.nl/popup_i...bc94f9ce195990

SAVAGEJIM

Wow, this thread gets down to the bottom fast; I had to scroll to the next page just to find it again.

Anyways, when I rebuilt my elcon clutch with the new shoes, I tore that sucker down and went over every nook and cranny on it before I slapped on the new shoes. In the first pic, this was my cleaning supply, well, I also used some degreaser earlier before fine cleaning it with a tooth brush and denatured alchohol. I also used a small butane torch to cook off loc-tite residue on the posts and screw threads. Everything looks like brand new like the day I opend them out of the package! (I am so pround of myself! )

In the second pic, I laid out the shoes for installing, and in the last two pics, I compared the reassembled clutch with the stock clutch that I had sitting around.

SAVAGEJIM

Oh, I also forgot: This is a vid of the Elcon clutch w/ new white shoes in my comp 4WD. This is the 0.75turn in setting, it is on hard packed road and it grips rather well. On grass, it also gets a good launch.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hicmrzbp_Eg[/youtube]

In this second vid, the FG simply has virtually no grip; it launched well on the concrete, but upon hitting the leaves, the truck skids out to the side. If I had the wheels straight, as soon as the wheels hit the leaves, a roost of leaves would have been shot up right at me.
Sorry for the long wait in the vid before I could actually gas it; trying to vid while holding the radio at the same time was tough.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5Jn11Or-w0[/youtube]

46u

My Feedback: (3)

SAVAGEJIM have you or anyone else had a problem with the stock plate? I know they make this one to replace the stock one but is it really necessary?
http://www.davesmotors.com/s.nl/c.88...t.A/id.1614/.f

SAVAGEJIM

As for the stock plate of the Elcon, no, I havenet, at least not yet. It is thin and looks floppy as you hold it in between your fingers, but surprisingly, it is quite durable once installed on the assembled clutch. The four posts are being pushed out by the clutch shoe springs, but once you tighten the longer screws on the engine side of the clutch body, the posts go directly to perpendicular and they stay that way! The thin upper plate ove the shoes is a perfect match for the posts, a testament of Elcon's very high precision.

I considered that very plate from DDM, Im always down for stronger especially since the clutch sees alot of force transferring, particularly at the instant it engages the CB.
If there are stouter springs for the Elcon and LB style clutches, and if I every dial in the shouls to open at a higher RPM, then I definitely would consider getting the DDM one. So far, the stock Elcon plate has held up okay, but I guess it is still a bit early to tell, I have only used the Elcon clutch for a life of about 3-5 gallons? (I cant remember since I had this clutch since around x-mas last year).

46u

My Feedback: (3)

Have you had the need to remove it since installing it and was it easy to remove? I am still torn between the Elcon and the Lauterbacher clutch. I am talking to others that say that own both and they say the Lauterbacher is made better and easier to remove. I just sold some old motorcycle parts caught up some bills and want to dump more in to my Baja 5B SS.

SAVAGEJIM

So far so good, I never had to take the clutch out of the engine yet.

I can see that getting this puppy out will be a pain come time for a rebuilt or something like that, but I guess I can use the holes on the top plate and say like a DDM flywheel puller/holder to torque it off. I didnt put any locktite on my clutch at the screw where it screws onto the crankshaft since it is self tightenting, so fighting loctite will not be the problem. I just hope the clutch itself will not have tighten itself down so much that it really locked it self down onto the crank!

raptor 8

Hey guy's, i have had both, lauter one for a number of years in my fg, and the elcon with black shoes in my hpi baja. Can't go wrong with either. I had alot less hassles with the lauter one. I would give the slight edge to the lauterbacher one. The issue's i had with the elcon with the black shoes, is it would always seem to loose it engagement point. Almost like it was sticking. Now maybe with the newer white shoes it is better i don't know, never had those. But i never had to adjust my lauter once i put it on and set it.

SAVAGEJIM

I definitely feel the bite difference and set-up difference with the Elcon white shoes over the black ones. And I agree, the black ones after I had them for some time, had a mushy feel to the engagement.

I recently toyed with the idea of getting the LB clutch to run that side by side with the elcon clutch, but when I finally ordered the white shoe replacements, I backed out of getting the LB clutch at the last moment. I still want the LB one too though, I will eventually get one in the future.

As for the LB clutch you have, did you get the 2shoe, 3shoe, or did you get the one that is similar to the Elcon 4shoe design?