Dodson Windsong
08-06-2011, 06:12 PM
#1
Dodson Windsong
I scored a Windsong at my club's flea market today for 3 bucks. It's rough but I think it is a great project for a refurbishment. Is there any updated guys were doing to these back in the day? The wing jointer looks a bit weak and may have to go or have an additional one added. The ailerons and flaps look a bit smallish, has anyone incresed the cord on them? Main intent is to have a fun relaxing TD ship for the monthly fun contests.
08-08-2011, 08:00 AM
#2
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RE: Dodson Windsong
I never had one but I flew a couple that belonged to buddy's.
Check the wings carefully to ensure that the skins have not slipped on the cores due to exposure to heat or poor storage such that the airfoils are different side to side or that the wings are washout out or washed in unequally. In particular double check the ailerons and flaps. These surfaces are quite thin and oddly shaped due to the Eppler 214 airfoil used on the Windsong. Because they are so thin they seem to be susceptible to deforming from pressure or heat. Two Windsongs I saw that flew poorly were found to have deformed control surfaces from whatever cause. To check them out I would even go so far as to produce lower surface templates for the wing chords at multiple points and ensure that the templates fit to a high degree of match. Not sure of the best way to fix any issues you have but start by checking them.
As for beefing up the joiner I'd say it may not be worth the trouble. The Windsong was never intended for leadfoot winch launches. STRONG launches sure. Just not the super strong launches we seem to take for granted now. And even the medium strong winches of the club I was in were enough to make the wings curl a lot on the Windsongs. So putting in a stronger joiner may well prove pointless since the outer wings will still be the limiting factor. Remember that there's no auxilliary spars in the wings. JUst the wood veneer that Bob put on the cores.
Check the wings carefully to ensure that the skins have not slipped on the cores due to exposure to heat or poor storage such that the airfoils are different side to side or that the wings are washout out or washed in unequally. In particular double check the ailerons and flaps. These surfaces are quite thin and oddly shaped due to the Eppler 214 airfoil used on the Windsong. Because they are so thin they seem to be susceptible to deforming from pressure or heat. Two Windsongs I saw that flew poorly were found to have deformed control surfaces from whatever cause. To check them out I would even go so far as to produce lower surface templates for the wing chords at multiple points and ensure that the templates fit to a high degree of match. Not sure of the best way to fix any issues you have but start by checking them.
As for beefing up the joiner I'd say it may not be worth the trouble. The Windsong was never intended for leadfoot winch launches. STRONG launches sure. Just not the super strong launches we seem to take for granted now. And even the medium strong winches of the club I was in were enough to make the wings curl a lot on the Windsongs. So putting in a stronger joiner may well prove pointless since the outer wings will still be the limiting factor. Remember that there's no auxilliary spars in the wings. JUst the wood veneer that Bob put on the cores.
08-08-2011, 03:39 PM
#3
RE: Dodson Windsong
Other then being painted and then covered in Solartex the wings look pretty good. The flaps and ailerons look like they have some bow to them but I plan to bag them with some 1.5 oz cloth. That sould get them strait and keep them there. I had to do the same with my Falcon 880 back in the day. I was thinking about taking the wings, putting a better wing jointer system in then making a 1/4" rout down 2/3 span and filling that with CF tow and then bagging them with 1 oz. Yes alot of work but I really want to make this into a beauty again and not have to worry about taking it easy on the winch. I'm not cocerned about weight.
08-09-2011, 11:03 AM
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RE: Dodson Windsong
So you're going to strip off the covering and finish and glass it? Did it come with the correct E214 beds that the wing panels were originally shipped with? If not you'll need to make your own.
The glass cloth over the veneer will certainly add a LOT of stength and stiffness. Enough that you will be able to benifit from boosting the joiner strength. Don't forget that it's not enough to just stick a bigger tube in there. The foam will fail unless you spread the joiner loads out into more of the skin over more area and span. THAT part won't change much just because you skin the wings.
The E214 airfoil is not at it's best when flying really fast. It just has too much camber to be a speed model despite any mods you do to it short of making all new wings with a different airfoil. So don't expect F3B like performance just because you up the wing loading. While they were hardly what you'd call floaters they can't hold a candle to the more slippery models of today with their airfoils sporting camber values of typically less than 2%. Even reflexing the flaps to remove some camber won't allow it to match today's models. But as long as you keep that in mind you'll have a lovely flyer.
The glass cloth over the veneer will certainly add a LOT of stength and stiffness. Enough that you will be able to benifit from boosting the joiner strength. Don't forget that it's not enough to just stick a bigger tube in there. The foam will fail unless you spread the joiner loads out into more of the skin over more area and span. THAT part won't change much just because you skin the wings.
The E214 airfoil is not at it's best when flying really fast. It just has too much camber to be a speed model despite any mods you do to it short of making all new wings with a different airfoil. So don't expect F3B like performance just because you up the wing loading. While they were hardly what you'd call floaters they can't hold a candle to the more slippery models of today with their airfoils sporting camber values of typically less than 2%. Even reflexing the flaps to remove some camber won't allow it to match today's models. But as long as you keep that in mind you'll have a lovely flyer.
08-09-2011, 04:04 PM
#5
RE: Dodson Windsong
Oh no I do realize that the Windsong would never be capable of even a club F3B event. Lets just say " Been there done that ". My intent is just to beef it up some and fly some club TD contests. I'm thinking that the weight I end up adding will fall back off by using current servos and power system. Obviously most of that will be out of the nose so I built up lightweight rudder is planned. Actuating it will be some kevlar pull pull cables. Not sure what to do about the stabs yet. Most likely I will strip them, re prep them and use film covering.
08-10-2011, 08:57 AM
#6
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RE: Dodson Windsong
If all you want to do is fly club TD contests just stick some servos in it and go fly.
It was about 5 years ago a Lovesong won at Visalia.The issue with the Windsong is the lack of a spar that ends at the wing tip. As I recall it terminates at the aileron junction. However, the Windsong also launches very well on a moderate pull. A very strong pull on launch mainly is beneficial if you plan a strong zoom at the end. Even with a bullet proof wing the airfoil will prevent a big zoom anyway. Adding weight will just increase sink and landing speeds.
Also keep in mind the E214 is a very thick wing compared to some modern airfoils. The good news is the extra thickness adds a great deal of strength. The issue with glassing the wings of an old airplane is you have no good way to judge the bond underneath.
The aileron and flap sizes are fine, they are very honest flying airplanes and great thermal machines. The 'Song will land very slowly when built stock.
Stick the aileron servos in the wings. The mixer setup was ahead of its time, but just not worth the hassle these days. Also look around and find the details for "tripping" the E214. It made a huge difference.
08-10-2011, 10:37 AM
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RE: Dodson Windsong
Speedracer, it sounds like you've got a realistic handle on the issues and the performance envelope. And while you're at it I'm assuming you're going to toss the funky flap to elevator mechanical mixer. That'll be a big help right there.
Rcsoar4fun raises a valid point about the skin to foam bond. If that lets go on you then not much is going to be gained from glassing the outside of the skin. I think it's possible to slit the skn and foam and force glass stringers down into the surface to act as spars and ensure a good bond at the same time. But then this is likely overthinking the whole thing. He may have a point that if the wings are in good shape and true that the best option may be to just enjoy it for what it is.
"What it is" isn't any slouch either. The Windsong was a highly potent soaring tool in its day. For all that we're discussing how to beef up the wings and joiner back then it was already a huge step up from the floaters of the day. Typical launch altitudes for them were already very high given that they worked so well early in the climb. And the folks I flew with had no issues with LIGHTLY pinging them for a jump of a good 50 to 60 feet off the end of the line if done well. Not many were done well but that's another story...
In the end it may well pay to just enjoy it for the glimpse at the "state of the art" as it was back then. Of course that's your choice since it's your model. But if you've also got modern models in the quiver it may be nice to have a lighter loaded model such as the Windsong that can still fly darn nicely.
Besides, I'm thinking that your plan is to use some 0.5oz cloth and finsihing resin? And then some light spray paint over that? If so the added strength it provides will be pretty good for not much more than a coat of plastic covering. But it's not of the same sort of strength that a bagged wing gives. And if you use heavier glass to basically try to replicate a bagged wing I'd suggest you'll add enough weight to the wings that you'll lose much of what made the Windsong so nice to fly.
Rcsoar4fun raises a valid point about the skin to foam bond. If that lets go on you then not much is going to be gained from glassing the outside of the skin. I think it's possible to slit the skn and foam and force glass stringers down into the surface to act as spars and ensure a good bond at the same time. But then this is likely overthinking the whole thing. He may have a point that if the wings are in good shape and true that the best option may be to just enjoy it for what it is.
"What it is" isn't any slouch either. The Windsong was a highly potent soaring tool in its day. For all that we're discussing how to beef up the wings and joiner back then it was already a huge step up from the floaters of the day. Typical launch altitudes for them were already very high given that they worked so well early in the climb. And the folks I flew with had no issues with LIGHTLY pinging them for a jump of a good 50 to 60 feet off the end of the line if done well. Not many were done well but that's another story...
In the end it may well pay to just enjoy it for the glimpse at the "state of the art" as it was back then. Of course that's your choice since it's your model. But if you've also got modern models in the quiver it may be nice to have a lighter loaded model such as the Windsong that can still fly darn nicely.Besides, I'm thinking that your plan is to use some 0.5oz cloth and finsihing resin? And then some light spray paint over that? If so the added strength it provides will be pretty good for not much more than a coat of plastic covering. But it's not of the same sort of strength that a bagged wing gives. And if you use heavier glass to basically try to replicate a bagged wing I'd suggest you'll add enough weight to the wings that you'll lose much of what made the Windsong so nice to fly.
08-10-2011, 06:59 PM
#9
RE: Dodson Windsong
Well, I have a brand new Airtronics Legend Fuse that I will be cutting some RG 15 cores for. Most likely a triple taper. I've been entertaining the idea of a V tail too. So that would require using the existing fuse as a plug and pull a mold. May as well go with a slip on nosecone at that point. Just hate it when these things snowball LOL. Ok back to Windsong. After stripping the covering off the wings I found privious damage. The repair was done fairly well but I have decided to do a 1/8" wide by 1/4: deep rout full span, fill that with CF tow and cap with 2.6 oz cloth. This will stiffen the wing some, re enforce the previous damage and make sure the skins are well bonded to the cores at the center of lift. Oh BTW the wing skins are balsa. The wings are alredy set up to accept servos. I'm thinking Hitec 225MG all around.
