Tequesta

I am thinking to buy the Nitro Models Dream Alps 67 or the Fantasy Angel and was looking for any advice.

http://www.nitroplanes.com/alps-rc-glider.html

http://www.nitroplanes.com/nitro-mod...sailplane.html

Thanks

Tinkrerpilot

My Feedback: (2)

Well seeing theat the Fantasy Angel is out of stock and the Alps is in stock. That would limit your choices.
Not real familar with either one, but the Alps would have my choice.

Tinkrerpilot

My Feedback: (2)

You should also look at the Kunlun 2000E. Gives you another 12" in wingspan. Similar to the Alps.

http://www.nitroplanes.com/cmp-kunlun-2000e.html

BMatthews

For thermal flying the Alps is on the heavy side at over 15 oz/sq ft . The Kunlun is no lightweight either at 14 oz/sq ft.

If you're after a hotliner then either would be fine. But as a model that will be relaxing to soar and that will be capable in lighter lift conditions both of these fall short by a lot due to the wing loading unless you're an expert at thermal soaring.

But since you didn't mention what style of flying you're looking at it's hard to say if these are the right model for you or not.

Tequesta

There was a guy at our field with a glider very similar to the Fantasy Angel. I understand that it is not a great glider, but it seem to me like a great transition into gliding. It seemed agile and quick, while at the same time could do a little gliding. Currently I fly mostly 40 size sport stuff and I am not sure I am ready for the big gliders. I know I do not want to mess with high starts and that stuff at this point.

Tinkrerpilot

My Feedback: (2)

Well with all that said. What type of flying do you plan on doing ? Think this would give us a better idea in which directions to give you.

Not wanting to mess with hi-starts and winches would go the electric direction. Tower Hobbies Vista or the Vista EP upgraded to Brushless is another direction. Radian would be another. Plenty of information to go around for electric Thermal planes.

BMatthews

Theres nothing wrong with going electric to avoid all the ground tackle hassles. Lots of folks have gone that way. But it comes down to do you want to just zoom around under power or learn to soar by seeking and riding thermals. The Alps, Fantasy Angel and Kunlun are all what many would call hotliners. Or at least "warmliners". They are at their best when flown under power for much of the flight. They can catch thermals but their higher wing loading will produce flying speeds that make it harder for a thermaling newbie to read the disturbances that indicate lift and to fly into that lift and stay there. Also having heavier wing loadings these models will not be able to take advantage of lighter lift.

The only model I see in the Nitromodels lineup that I would say is suitable and reasonably compact is the Easy Tiger.

From Tower there's a ARF Vista and Upstar that I would suggest. Although polyhedral and rather "trainer like" the challenge of finding and riding thermals will prove to be all the challenge you need and these planes would give you a good beginning on this aspect. Being easy to fly in a sailplane is a good thing. It allows you to follow the lift further downwind and not run into flying issues due to "controlling a speck" vs having to actually see the model to fly it well when it's a full house sort of model.
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXMUY1&P=0
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXMCL0&P=0

From Hobby Lobby there's the Easyglider
http://www.hobby-lobby.com/easyglide...18688_prd1.htm

There's other options from other suppliers but these should provide you with something to chew on. And keep in mind that while the glider itself will and SHOULD be a breeze to fly it is the challenge of finding and riding the lift that you're looking at. So despite the fact that you may think these models are boring to just fly you'll find that they prove to be effective because they allow you to focus on the air they are flying through and how they are interacting with that air.

Tequesta

Thank you all for the input. It is hard to know if I am ready for the a true thermaling glider. I have never flown a glider and, we only have a few guys at the field that fly them. Unfortunately they are weekday guys, I think they are retired, and shy away from the weekend crowd. I am intrigued by the thought of riding the thermals. Is the Easyglider from Hobby-Lobby in the same category as the two planes from Tower? It looks more like a warmliner. My theory about things that are made to do more than one thing is, they are bad at both. Enduro motorcycles can go on the street and the dirt, but are not that great at either one. I want to give this aspect of the hobby a fair chance, and get a plane that will give me the best chance to succeed. Currently all my planes are 40 size or smaller and I consider myself in the sport category.

BMatthews

Make no mistake about it. Learning to fly thermals is a challenge. Not in flying the model but in reading the air and learning the signs as the model kicks around under the influence of the various turbulent flows it passes through that are all part of a thermal environment. But when you finally get it and find yourself riding them on a semi regular basis it's like landing the biggest fish in the lake after a long and arduous fight to keep it on the hook and not lose the line. In fact it never does become really easy other than on a few rare days when the whole sky seems to be going up. But for those of us who have embraced the challenge it is this very difficulty and wildly variable results that keep us hooked on thermal soaring for year after year. As a bonus you'll also learn the art of delicate control and fine tune your model handling skills. This is needed for thermal flying moreso than regular sport flying to minimize the loss of altitude in the turns and to avoid drag from using excess control inputs. Instead you'll learn to enter and leave a turn as flat and with as minimal speed change as possible so as not to lose any unnecessary altitude. And you'll learn the advantage of just barely breathing on the sticks to ease the model around oh so slowly as you S turn across the airflow searching for thermal sign. Your eyes will bug out of your head in concentration watching for a wing bobble or speed variation that indicates disturbed air that COULD be a thermal.

Sounds like a lot of work doesn't it? BUt when you hook around and begin circling and you realize that it's going UP and you're gaining 8 or 10 feet per circle you'll be dancing a jig in your heart. I've had days were lift was light and I had to scratch just to hold my altitude. And when there's a timer over your shoulder counting off the ever so slowly passing minutes it leaves you a wrung out mess with soaked armpits. But if you make it you're on top of the world. And even if you don't accept the challenge of a contest environment it's a helluva feeling to suck some air time out of a veritable whiff of lift. It soon becomes a personal challenge to NOT give up until you know you're beaten and there's nothing left to wring out of the air that day.

Now, if I haven't scared you away lets get back to the models....

I haven't flown or even seen an Easyglider. But lots of folks here in the Soaring section are singing its praise so I included it as an option. Looking at the specs is the key rather than the appearance. Yes it's a sleeker looking shape but the wing loading is the key. And that comes in at 34 oz for the electric version spread over 645 sq inches = 4.48 sq feet to give a decently light 7.6 oz/sq ft. It's not in the floater class at that wing loading but it is emminently soar'able even for a newbie to thermal flying. Are there other better options? I'd say yes from my own opinion. But they are kit or plans built models of the sort I enjoy. But you wanted something a little smaller and, I gathered, an ARF so for now this would not be a bad option at all.

There's another option that I neglected in my previous post and one which has been very popular over a number of years. The Great Planes Spirit electric glider. Being polyhedral and rudder elevator with no ailerons it will prove easier to fly out at great distances since you guide it more than fly it. Such a model will get you into a lot less trouble than one with ailerons when you first start to venture out to "speck of dust" range.

http://www.electrifly.com/largeelectrics/gpma0540.html

Tequesta

Very nicely put BMatthews.

On the contrary after reading your description I am sad it has taken me this long to get into the gliding aspect of the hobby.

The easyglider has 7.6 oz/sq ft
The Spectra has 10.7 oz/sq ft

When it comes to gliding 7.6 would be better no?
Scares me. Been there a couple of times and I'm a little nervous about going there on a regular basis. Is it a correct assumption that having the Polyhedral and, the stability that it provides, makes these plane better even with the heavier loading.

I do like to build but, I am building an Japanese Oscar, and I have a Sig KK on deck, although it has been there awhile.

Thanks for help

9836 post and still no plagiarized witty saying

BMatthews

Franky when I posted that I didn't look at the numbers for the Spectra. You're right, for casual soaring the lighter wing loading of the Easy Glider wins.

There's another polyhedra option if you wish to go this way. I noticed that Great Planes is now owner of the Gentle Lady design and they have them in both kit and ARF form. If you don't mind going to the trouble to chop off the nose block and add a firewall to mount a brushless outrunner you could convert a Gentle Lady into an electric glider with very little trouble.

http://www.carlgoldbergproducts.com/.../gpma1960.html

The website shows a ready to fly weight of 25 oz. Now take out the 4 oz regular battery pack used for most radios and replace that with a motor and Lipo pack and you'd still come in at 30 oz give or take an ounce. These days if you don't go crazy on the motor size you can often convert a glider with little or no weight penalty. Which makes me wonder why the Spirit is so heavy a wing loading.... Anyhow, lets call it 32 oz as a worst case carried by 663 square inches. That's 32 / (663 / 144) = 7 oz/sq ft . So it's in the ballpark with the EasyGlider but doesn't have the ailerons. Having flown a Gentle Lady but not the Easy Glider I can't make a comparison. HOwever legions of pilots will get all gooey eyed at their memories of the Gentle Lady. And I'm one of them. They don't do well in higher winds but up to around 5 to 7 mph wind speed they are just fine. And they fly in a wonderfully coordinated way that makes a poor pilot look decent and a good pilot look brilliant when it comes to doing nice low loss turns. Adding a modern proper sized motor and folding prop to a GL just seems like the cherry on top of the sundae to me. So you may want to toss one onto your list of options.

In fairness to the Spirit they do include the motor which appears to be one of the old brushed motors and I noted that the writeup calls for a 6 to7 cell battery pack. So those specs are from back pre brushless and pre lipo. With a switch out to todays smaller brushless outrunners and Lipo packs replacing that old stuff you can easily slice 8 to 10 oz off the stated flying weight. For an 8 to 10 oz reduction that would bring it down to an 8.7 to 9 oz/sq ft loading. That's not bad and actually if you're forced to fly in stronger conditions much of the time it can even be a bit of an advantage thanks to the higher cruise speed it gives. But it will make it a little harder to learn to thermal well versus a lighter model in lighter winds.

Don't let the speck think scare you. Just turn back before it gets that far out. Or if it's getting small fast overhead thanks to being sucked up into a helpful big ol' Cu'Nim cell then start spiralling down or gointo a big falling leaf pattern. Just watch the speed. Unlike power models most gliders WILL explode into bits if you get going too fast. The falling leaf thing is where you use some rudder to start into a spiral dive but then reverse it so it pulls out and goes over the other way. The resulting descent pattern ends up looking like a series of reversing chandelles. Just time it so it climbs back up part way to bleed off speed before begining the next falloff into the descent. Having to do this a time or two will teach you why spoilers or flaps are actually a good thing even for sport flying.

Actually with an electric model there's another option. Turn on the power to about 1/4 throttle so the prop blades fling out. Then push over into a moderate dive. As the speed comes up just shut off the throttle. The speed will windmill the prop strongly and it'll stay deployed and act as a HUGE speed brake as the model descends. Some playing with this at a lower altitude will soon teach you the right timing for how to do this.

BMatthews

Franky when I posted that I didn't look at the numbers for the Spectra. You're right, for casual soaring the lighter wing loading of the Easy Glider wins.

There's another polyhedral option if you wish to go this way. I noticed that Great Planes is now owner of the Gentle Lady design and they have them in both kit and ARF form. If you don't mind going to the trouble to chop off the nose block and add a firewall to mount a brushless outrunner you could convert a Gentle Lady into an electric glider with very little trouble.

http://www.carlgoldbergproducts.com/.../gpma1960.html

The website shows a ready to fly weight of 25 oz. Now take out the 4 oz regular battery pack used for most radios and replace that with a motor and Lipo pack and you'd still come in at 30 oz give or take an ounce. These days if you don't go crazy on the motor size you can often convert a glider with little or no weight penalty. Which makes me wonder why the Spirit is so heavy a wing loading.... Anyhow, lets call it 32 oz as a worst case carried by 663 square inches. That's 32 / (663 / 144) = 7 oz/sq ft . So it's in the ballpark with the EasyGlider but doesn't have the ailerons. Having flown a Gentle Lady but not the Easy Glider I can't make a comparison. HOwever legions of pilots will get all gooey eyed at their memories of the Gentle Lady. And I'm one of them. They don't do well in higher winds but up to around 5 to 7 mph wind speed they are just fine. And they fly in a wonderfully coordinated way that makes a poor pilot look decent and a good pilot look brilliant when it comes to doing nice low loss turns. Adding a modern proper sized motor and folding prop to a GL just seems like the cherry on top of the sundae to me. So you may want to toss one onto your list of options.

In fairness to the Spirit they do include the motor which appears to be one of the old brushed motors and I noted that the writeup calls for a 6 to7 cell battery pack. So those specs are from back pre brushless and pre lipo. With a switch out to todays smaller brushless outrunners and Lipo packs replacing that old stuff you can easily slice 8 to 10 oz off the stated flying weight. For an 8 to 10 oz reduction that would bring it down to an 8.7 to 9 oz/sq ft loading. That's not bad and actually if you're forced to fly in stronger conditions much of the time it can even be a bit of an advantage thanks to the higher cruise speed it gives. But it will make it a little harder to learn to thermal well versus a lighter model in lighter winds.

Don't let the speck think scare you. Just turn back before it gets that far out. Or if it's getting small fast overhead thanks to being sucked up into a helpful big ol' Cu'Nim cell then start spiralling down or gointo a big falling leaf pattern. Just watch the speed. Unlike power models most gliders WILL explode into bits if you get going too fast. The falling leaf thing is where you use some rudder to start into a spiral dive but then reverse it so it pulls out and goes over the other way. The resulting descent pattern ends up looking like a series of reversing chandelles. Just time it so it climbs back up part way to bleed off speed before begining the next falloff into the descent. Having to do this a time or two will teach you why spoilers or flaps are actually a good thing even for sport flying.

Actually with an electric model there's another option. Turn on the power to about 1/4 throttle so the prop blades fling out. Then push over into a moderate dive. As the speed comes up just shut off the throttle. The speed will windmill the prop strongly and it'll stay deployed and act as a HUGE speed brake as the model descends. Some playing with this at a lower altitude will soon teach you the right timing for how to do this.

And there's no witty saying there yet since I haven't seen anything worth quoting yet....

ARUP

Once you hook up to a thermal then you will be hooked! I have thermaled a Stick 40 that had 6" wing extensions, one flight in 2 different thermals for a total duration of ~1.5 hours! Go to a sailplane fly and snoop around. Personally, I wish I hadn't spent time and money on the polyhedral ships and just started with full house non- powered scale sailplanes (which is what I like best) but then you will need a way to get 'em up there! Pick your poison!

Tequesta

The Gentle Lady, Spectra, and the Vista all seem to be similar wing area, around 675 and have a polyhedral. Does the 5-7 mph wind rule effect all three? Most days here in my area there is a 5 mph wind or higher. In the summer it is welcomed, without a little breeze it is miserable. The field is an old dump made into a park, it is very nice, but it is higher than the surrounding area so we get wind. Does this change your point of view. We always have Turkey Vultures flying around so I think there is plenty of rising air. I am surprised that more guys don't have gliders.

aeajr

My Feedback: (2)

If you are looking for an e-glider in receiver ready or RTF packaging as a first thermal glider, the Radian wins hands down!
http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products...ProdID=PKZ4700

If you like a kit/arf kind of packaging as a pure glider or an e-glider, then the Easy Glider Pro is the way to go!
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...CH=Easy+glider


on the other extreme, if you have the big bucks

AvA-E or Supra-E
http://www.kennedycomposites.com/avae.htm
http://www.kennedycomposites.com/suprae.htm

BMatthews

Of the trio of Gentle Lady, Spectra and Vista I'd opt for the Spectra as a better moderate wind performer for a model with polyhedral. The extra wing loading and airfoil they use will give that model a better range of speed from slow to fast cruise. The fast cruise will deal easily with winds up to around 8 to 10 mph far better than a Gentle Lady.

And although I suggested the Vista I've never seen one flying. But I've flown both the GL and Spectra and I know the Spectra will do well in moderate conditions where the GL will be nearing it's limit for comfortable ranging around by the time the winds are up to around 8 to 10 mph.

Tequesta

I just happened to be at the hobby store checking out the Radian this afternoon and I am a little Leary of all foam planes. I am worried that they are too fragile.

aeajr

My Feedback: (2)

I have 25 planes, 18 of which range fromDLG to 3.4M full house contest gliders. I love my Radian. I use the Radian to train new pilots because it flies so well and can really stand up to the punishment that new pilots provide.

But that is your call. If you don't like foam, you don't like foam.

Tequesta

aeajr,

I followed your link to the Novice Lounge. Looks very good. I had never seen the discus launch. I am going to take some time and check out the forum.

Thanks

Tequesta

I think I am going to go with the Easy Glider Pro soon. Since I have the ears of the experts is the power plant that Tower recommends the way to go, or can you suggest something better. Down the road, if all goes well, I like the Calysto DLG. Can this withstand the discus launch? Maybe the DL50 would be better.

Thanks for your help.

aeajr

My Feedback: (2)

Can't go wrong with the Easy Glider Pro.

The tower set-up is fine.

As for a first DLG. 

Wright Brothers R/C   Gambler-AG would be my recommendation
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=504554

Tinkrerpilot

My Feedback: (2)

Ditto on the Gambler for a first DLG. Friend has one and we have a ball with it. Got to order one for me, soon.

Tequesta

Easy gilder pro has some time on it now, but today I caught my first thermal. What a thrill.

Thanks