Need a little advice
05-18-2005, 10:31 PM
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Need a little advice
I'm thinking about getting into rc helicopters. I already know that I'm going electric when/if I get one. I also know I want a smaller one for various reasons. I need some other info at this point.
I've read several posts about where not to buy from and what brands to avoid as well. What I need to know about is the difference in learning curves between fixed and collective pitch.
I'm quick to learn things and have good hand/eye coordination and visual/spacial skills. I just don't want to get a fixed pitch helicopter and then get bored with it, wishing that I had spent the money on something more challenging.
I've downloaded FSM and am working on getting it to run on my pc. I'll probably have to put it on a 98 box as I'm having problems with it on my 2k machine. I've got no problem spending time on a simulator; it only makes good sense.
Now I just need some advice as to what direction to take this in. From my understanding so far, fixed pitch is easier to fly, but less aerobatic. Throttle up for lift, lay off to land. Forward, backward and rotate. Collective pitch is full RPM with the collective's angle of attack determining lift allowing lots of room for different movements and many new ways to crash.
Although I'm not prepared to sink tons of money into this, I don't want to end up buying a $150 conversation piece that I end up trying to pawn off on somebody on ebay. I don't know if I'd get into crazy aerobatics or not, so I may not need collective pitch to have fun with the hobby. I'm wondering how hard it is to move from fixed to collective. I've read that some copters can switch between the two as well. If that's the case, I will need some suggestions on brand, model, etc. as that is the obvious choice (unless it's too expensive).
I'm open to any advice...
I've read several posts about where not to buy from and what brands to avoid as well. What I need to know about is the difference in learning curves between fixed and collective pitch.
I'm quick to learn things and have good hand/eye coordination and visual/spacial skills. I just don't want to get a fixed pitch helicopter and then get bored with it, wishing that I had spent the money on something more challenging.
I've downloaded FSM and am working on getting it to run on my pc. I'll probably have to put it on a 98 box as I'm having problems with it on my 2k machine. I've got no problem spending time on a simulator; it only makes good sense.
Now I just need some advice as to what direction to take this in. From my understanding so far, fixed pitch is easier to fly, but less aerobatic. Throttle up for lift, lay off to land. Forward, backward and rotate. Collective pitch is full RPM with the collective's angle of attack determining lift allowing lots of room for different movements and many new ways to crash.
Although I'm not prepared to sink tons of money into this, I don't want to end up buying a $150 conversation piece that I end up trying to pawn off on somebody on ebay. I don't know if I'd get into crazy aerobatics or not, so I may not need collective pitch to have fun with the hobby. I'm wondering how hard it is to move from fixed to collective. I've read that some copters can switch between the two as well. If that's the case, I will need some suggestions on brand, model, etc. as that is the obvious choice (unless it's too expensive).
I'm open to any advice...
05-19-2005, 05:39 AM
#2
RE: Need a little advice
The Fixed Pitch (FP) micro helis are not easier to fly than the Collective Pitch (CP) helis of similar size. Quite the opposite. They are harder to control and less stable in a hover. Their advantages include robustness and simplicity. But a CP machine is more stable in a hover.
So why start out with FP? Because of that robustness and simplicity. When learning to fly a model heli, you must also learn to be a model heli mechanic. You will crash. You will need to repair the heli when you break parts. You will bend things and the heli will vibrate so much that it will not fly. You will have to troubleshoot those vibration problems. You will have to tweak the mechanics to remove friction. All of these tasks are easier on a FP heli. The crashes will result in broken pieces less often than on a CP machine. (and replacing the FP broken pieces is cheaper than replacing the CP broken pieces)
Before you start selecting a model to start out with, we should look at what you intend to do with the heli. Are you looking for an indoor flyer or an outdoor flyer? Indoors, you are going to want to get a FP micro to start with. Outdoors, a Lite Machines Corona is best for beginners. If you have a ton of time in on a sim, and a fair amount of discretionary income, a T-Rex is almost doable for a beginner. Lots of time on the sim. Lots of time getting the machine working perfectly before you fly.
Speaking of the sim, do you already have a transmitter to use for input on FMS? A sim us useless unless you are using a transmitter for inputs (or a transmitter dummy box). Using keyboard inputs, or gaming joysticks is not going to help you fly your model heli in the slightest.
Most people tell beginners to start out with FP helis for a reason. There are far more people that start out on FP and succeed than people who start out on a CP and succeed. Trying to start out with CP puts you in a class that is far more likely to try, fail repeatedly, and then give up. I am not calling you a quitter. I am just commenting on the posts that we have been involved in again and again.
So why start out with FP? Because of that robustness and simplicity. When learning to fly a model heli, you must also learn to be a model heli mechanic. You will crash. You will need to repair the heli when you break parts. You will bend things and the heli will vibrate so much that it will not fly. You will have to troubleshoot those vibration problems. You will have to tweak the mechanics to remove friction. All of these tasks are easier on a FP heli. The crashes will result in broken pieces less often than on a CP machine. (and replacing the FP broken pieces is cheaper than replacing the CP broken pieces)
Before you start selecting a model to start out with, we should look at what you intend to do with the heli. Are you looking for an indoor flyer or an outdoor flyer? Indoors, you are going to want to get a FP micro to start with. Outdoors, a Lite Machines Corona is best for beginners. If you have a ton of time in on a sim, and a fair amount of discretionary income, a T-Rex is almost doable for a beginner. Lots of time on the sim. Lots of time getting the machine working perfectly before you fly.
Speaking of the sim, do you already have a transmitter to use for input on FMS? A sim us useless unless you are using a transmitter for inputs (or a transmitter dummy box). Using keyboard inputs, or gaming joysticks is not going to help you fly your model heli in the slightest.
Most people tell beginners to start out with FP helis for a reason. There are far more people that start out on FP and succeed than people who start out on a CP and succeed. Trying to start out with CP puts you in a class that is far more likely to try, fail repeatedly, and then give up. I am not calling you a quitter. I am just commenting on the posts that we have been involved in again and again.
05-19-2005, 06:17 AM
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RE: Need a little advice
I agree with most of what Vince is saying. I went straight to CP (the T-Rex).
I bought G3 put a lot of time into it about 3 months and this was about how long it took me to get all the parts and get it together. I might add that it also takes a lot of reading and lots of patience to make sure the heli is setup.
I was able to nose in hover the first battery pack with no problems all thanks to the SIM.
Now I can’t do everything in real life that I can on the SIM but it helps a lot.
You’ll probably spend a little more money and have little more headaches but going right to a CP can be done.
My opinion is if your going to a Micro CP then get the T-Rex.
Tony
I bought G3 put a lot of time into it about 3 months and this was about how long it took me to get all the parts and get it together. I might add that it also takes a lot of reading and lots of patience to make sure the heli is setup.
I was able to nose in hover the first battery pack with no problems all thanks to the SIM.
Now I can’t do everything in real life that I can on the SIM but it helps a lot.
You’ll probably spend a little more money and have little more headaches but going right to a CP can be done.
My opinion is if your going to a Micro CP then get the T-Rex.
Tony
05-19-2005, 07:36 AM
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RE: Need a little advice
Thanks for the quick responses.
I'm probably going to do outdoor flying, although I don't want to rule out the posibility of indoor flight. It makes a lot of sense to go with the fixed pitch just because of the maintenance issues. What is the learning curve like as far as the transition between fixed and collective pitch? And are there any specific models that would be easier to make this transition with?
I'm also wondering what couse I should take as far as buying a model. Should I buy a RTF copter complete with everything (*transmitter batteries not included), or buy a kit and purchase my own radio, servos, etc. I've never built anything quite as extravagant as this and want to make sure that I get high quality (missing from most RTF's) but don't want to have an expensive pile of stuff that I can't quite get together right (already done for me in an RTF). And what comes in a kit? The ones I've seen at local hobby stores have a listing of parts, but not all of them mean anything to me. I've learned some from looking at spare parts online and reading posts/articles about them. I just wouldn't want to buy a kit and then say "Oops, I forgot to pick up a flux capacitor better head back to the hobby store and see if they have one in stock..."
It also seems to be a lot more expensive to buy from scratch. Not just radio and servos, but also batteries and chargers, etc. If I look at an RTF and it's price, and compare it to a kit and the other stuff I have to buy (taking into consideration that the radio and servos will most likely be crap), the price for the RTF is still proportionally much lower than the DIY version.
One of the things I was thinking is that if I DIY it, I can buy a 6 channel radio and servos now, practice on the sim to see if I can grasp the physics of it, then buy a kit. Even if I go fixed pitch with the intention of collective later on, I should be able to re-use the servos, right? Also, how many actual servos go in a copter and how many functions are carried out by non-servo electronics (basically, what am I looking at buying in the short run if I go the non-RTF path and what brands are good ones)? Sorry about all the questions, I just haven't found the all-inclusive-electric-rc-helicopter-faq yet.
Oh yeah, as far as the sim is concerned, I am just looking it over. I know I won't have any practicle ability with it until I get a radio to connect to it. Right now I'm working out the technical bugs to make it work on one of my PC's. But it kind of reinforces my thinking that I should just drop a little money now on a radio and see if I like it. If not, sell the used radio and unused servos and be glad I didn't just bid on the first copter I found on ebay...
I'm probably going to do outdoor flying, although I don't want to rule out the posibility of indoor flight. It makes a lot of sense to go with the fixed pitch just because of the maintenance issues. What is the learning curve like as far as the transition between fixed and collective pitch? And are there any specific models that would be easier to make this transition with?
I'm also wondering what couse I should take as far as buying a model. Should I buy a RTF copter complete with everything (*transmitter batteries not included), or buy a kit and purchase my own radio, servos, etc. I've never built anything quite as extravagant as this and want to make sure that I get high quality (missing from most RTF's) but don't want to have an expensive pile of stuff that I can't quite get together right (already done for me in an RTF). And what comes in a kit? The ones I've seen at local hobby stores have a listing of parts, but not all of them mean anything to me. I've learned some from looking at spare parts online and reading posts/articles about them. I just wouldn't want to buy a kit and then say "Oops, I forgot to pick up a flux capacitor better head back to the hobby store and see if they have one in stock..."
It also seems to be a lot more expensive to buy from scratch. Not just radio and servos, but also batteries and chargers, etc. If I look at an RTF and it's price, and compare it to a kit and the other stuff I have to buy (taking into consideration that the radio and servos will most likely be crap), the price for the RTF is still proportionally much lower than the DIY version.
One of the things I was thinking is that if I DIY it, I can buy a 6 channel radio and servos now, practice on the sim to see if I can grasp the physics of it, then buy a kit. Even if I go fixed pitch with the intention of collective later on, I should be able to re-use the servos, right? Also, how many actual servos go in a copter and how many functions are carried out by non-servo electronics (basically, what am I looking at buying in the short run if I go the non-RTF path and what brands are good ones)? Sorry about all the questions, I just haven't found the all-inclusive-electric-rc-helicopter-faq yet.
Oh yeah, as far as the sim is concerned, I am just looking it over. I know I won't have any practicle ability with it until I get a radio to connect to it. Right now I'm working out the technical bugs to make it work on one of my PC's. But it kind of reinforces my thinking that I should just drop a little money now on a radio and see if I like it. If not, sell the used radio and unused servos and be glad I didn't just bid on the first copter I found on ebay...
05-19-2005, 08:13 AM
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RE: Need a little advice
Most outdoor helis are too big and have head speeds too high to really consider flying indoors. And indoor helis are too small and have lower head speeds, so they cannot handle much wind at all. That said, I still hover my T-Rex in the basement, but there is nothing breakable there except me and the heli.
I recommend that beginners start out with a kit that they assemble. You can still purchase a combo package where the components are more likely to work together, but you still assemble it. You learn from the assembly. You are more prepared to troubleshoot and repair when you assemble it yourself. These are valuable skills to have.
I recommend that beginners start out with a kit that they assemble. You can still purchase a combo package where the components are more likely to work together, but you still assemble it. You learn from the assembly. You are more prepared to troubleshoot and repair when you assemble it yourself. These are valuable skills to have.
05-19-2005, 08:45 AM
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RE: Need a little advice
First of let me say I am one who did start with collective pitch and skipped fixed pitch but I also spent about four months on a simulator,and as for the free FMS if you are going to use that then you are already one step behind it is JUNK no better than a video game,you would learn more from Microsoft flight sim than that junk.If you are going to get into this then you had better be ready to spend some money and learn you try to do it on the cheap you will fail miserably at it because you get what you pay for.A good sim like Reflex XTR or Great planes G3 are the best,you can also get Aero flight Deluxe which is not as good as the other two but is better than FMS.
As for RTF and ARF the RTF is fine but you learn nothing about the mechanics of the Heli and so what are you going to do if you crash and have to repair your heli,look for someone to do it for you????Arf or a kit will teach you how to build and repair your heli when you need to and teaches you how it works,I have built two heli's and they were really fun to build almost as fun as flying them.Don't take the easy way out learn and do it yourself you will be a better mechanic and pilot for it.
Now for the radio you can go cheap and eventually as you grow out of it have to buy another but this also has to do with your ability to stick with it or Quit because the radio is an investment that is not cheap.The best is the Futaba 9CHP or the CHPS which I have and most of the guys here use it is the only radio you will ever need and one of the best.You could also go with the Hitec Eclipse 7 which is a good radio but a little less expensive than the 9C and a little less on features also.The radio is the most important part of your gear so if you skimp here again you will be behind the 8 ball.
I think the best thing you can do is research this on the web and figure out if this is really what you want to get into because once you start it you need to stick with it because it will take a very long time to learn this well and will cost some serious cash you see I have been in it since September and have Two Heli's and over $2500.00 invested so far in this.Other guys here have a lot more than that invested but we enjoy it and went into it knowing that it is a very expensive hobby to get into.
As for RTF and ARF the RTF is fine but you learn nothing about the mechanics of the Heli and so what are you going to do if you crash and have to repair your heli,look for someone to do it for you????Arf or a kit will teach you how to build and repair your heli when you need to and teaches you how it works,I have built two heli's and they were really fun to build almost as fun as flying them.Don't take the easy way out learn and do it yourself you will be a better mechanic and pilot for it.
Now for the radio you can go cheap and eventually as you grow out of it have to buy another but this also has to do with your ability to stick with it or Quit because the radio is an investment that is not cheap.The best is the Futaba 9CHP or the CHPS which I have and most of the guys here use it is the only radio you will ever need and one of the best.You could also go with the Hitec Eclipse 7 which is a good radio but a little less expensive than the 9C and a little less on features also.The radio is the most important part of your gear so if you skimp here again you will be behind the 8 ball.
I think the best thing you can do is research this on the web and figure out if this is really what you want to get into because once you start it you need to stick with it because it will take a very long time to learn this well and will cost some serious cash you see I have been in it since September and have Two Heli's and over $2500.00 invested so far in this.Other guys here have a lot more than that invested but we enjoy it and went into it knowing that it is a very expensive hobby to get into.
05-19-2005, 08:48 AM
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RE: Need a little advice
I've read a few articles and posts since my last post. A kit definitely sounds like the way to go in the long run. It would be nice to just drop $250 on a RTF and hope for the best, but I don't think that makes much sense at this point.
Next step, what kits and electronics should I look into? I don't need top of the line performance stuff, but I don't want junk either. As far as the kit is concerned, I would like the following (in order) for a small indoor/calm weather outdoor copter...
[*]Durability[*]Ease of assembly/repair[*]Price
I'm not entirely sure what I need in a radio. I want the option to use it in a later model if I decide to go that route, but don't want to drop $200 on something that I end up selling for half that becasue I don't get into the hobby like I think I might. I'm guessing I'd need a 6 channel radio. Do they make specific radios for helicopters or will any 6 channel with servos do the trick? I haven't had the opportunity to price these yet or look at the differences between them (much less where to start looking). Right now I'm just googling popular brand names and going from there. Any guidance here would be helpful.
Next step, what kits and electronics should I look into? I don't need top of the line performance stuff, but I don't want junk either. As far as the kit is concerned, I would like the following (in order) for a small indoor/calm weather outdoor copter...
[*]Durability[*]Ease of assembly/repair[*]Price
I'm not entirely sure what I need in a radio. I want the option to use it in a later model if I decide to go that route, but don't want to drop $200 on something that I end up selling for half that becasue I don't get into the hobby like I think I might. I'm guessing I'd need a 6 channel radio. Do they make specific radios for helicopters or will any 6 channel with servos do the trick? I haven't had the opportunity to price these yet or look at the differences between them (much less where to start looking). Right now I'm just googling popular brand names and going from there. Any guidance here would be helpful.
05-19-2005, 09:07 AM
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RE: Need a little advice
The on line shops that I am going to recommend are the ones I use and some people will have something to say about some of them but I have had no problems with them and have spent a lot of cash with them,remember these are just suggestions. http://www.helihobby.com/html/trex_helicopter.html http://www.fxaeromodels.com/ http://www.grandrc.com/home http://www.hifirc.com/catalog/index.php these will help you get a feel of what is out there and what the cost is also look at all the helis that each on line store has to offer find one that catches your eye and then ask about it here or better yet use the search button at the top of the page and search the forms for threads pertaining to that specific heli and get all the information you need I think that over the years that I have been a member here almost every brand and type of heli has been talked about over and over.I hope this helps but when it comes down to it you have to pick one and decide if it is right for you and if you want it.
