GeraldRosebery

My Feedback: (14)

I have flown fixed wing for 35 years. This may seem like a really dumb idea, but I am going to start my helicopter exeprience with a $3000 electric Joker 2 set up as a camera platform. I am going to get some rotorhead input on set up and for test flying it and will learn to fly a chopper on a good simulator (any input on that?) first. I am also going to set it up hyper conservative with gyros and probably an FMA co-pilot for stability while taking pictures. Is this a dumb idea? Will it really do me any good to buy a cheap ARF first and learn to fly a much less stable beast first?

thecheatscalc

well it always works to start cheap first as i'm sure that the joker spare parts aren't anything less than 10 bucks a peice. A sim is great but I'd suggest just get a cheap belt driven heli for the same price and learn by experience.

VinceHerman

Hi Gerry,
Realflight G2, G3 or Reflex XTR are on top of the pick list for sims. I have used all 3, and they all will give you the proper learning opportunities. All 3 need a reasonably powerful computer, and all 3 benefit greatly from a 3D video card.

At that budget, I assume that you are getting a high end transmitter (The Futaba 9CH series comes to mind, but there are great ones from the other manufacturers as well).

I am not a fan of co-pilot. Some say they are good. The experience at our field is less than 50% approval among those who have tried them (although all were fixed wing, so you decide how relevant this is)

I would definitely suggest that you learn on a smaller heli. Yes, it will be a slightly steeper learning curve, but the cost of crashes will be MUCH lower. Crashes on my T-Rex average about $15. After you have learned to hover, learned nose in and side in, learned circuits and FFF, THEN consider upgrading to the big boy.

Vince

GeraldRosebery

My Feedback: (14)

Thanks for the input. Can you suggest a decent ARF belt drive electric that I could look at. Per my post I have no interest in aerobatics at all. The Joker 2 would be a commercial venture taking real estate type photos. It is also a belt drive (very quiet).

credence

My Feedback: (2)

You won't find many ARF's where helicopters are concerned unless you go with a cheap RTF setup. Most (quality) helicopters are sold as kits. It would be benifical to build it from scratch as you'll gain an understanding of the mechanics, and you'll know how to fix it when you (inevitably) crash.

I understand that you want to use the joker as a camera ship. It's a great choice, but well, VERY expensive.
Helicopters are not really something you just "fly". It's not so much like an airplane where you can fly it even if you have no operational knowledge of aircraft. Helicopters require almost a degree of obsession to build, maintain, and operate (safely). The skillset needed to fly them is completely different aswell. The only thing that transfers over from flying aircraft is positional orientation, which is one of the biggest hurdles for most newbie pilots anyways, so you're set in this regard, now you just need to re-train your reflexes.

That said, I would, like everyone else, suggest you stay away from such an enourmously expensive helicopter if you're a beginner, and instead learn on a smaller ship. You don't nescesarily need to go the micro route, but it would be the cheapest in the long run probably, as repairs on them are very cheap. The best in this range is arguably the Align T-rex or the X-400. If you don't mind spending a bit more, you can go with a mid to full size setup such as the Mikado Logo 10/14/20 or Ikarus eco-8. The bigger you go, the easier they become to fly, the more expensive they become to build, and the more expensive they become to crash.

In the joker's case, JUST the motor can cost you $300 - $600. All of the above mentioned helicopters have belt driven tails aswell.

I would suggest a micro like the t-rex if you're learning. The initial flight learning curve will be a bit steeper as they aren't AS easy to control, but if you can master the t-rex, flying the joker would be a walk in the park, so to speak.

GeraldRosebery

My Feedback: (14)

Thanks great input from a fellow Canuck I see. We are retiring soon and are looking to move to Niagara-on-the-Lake. The whole family is in the TO area. My sister in law lives in Brampton and we used to live in Georgetown.

BarracudaHockey

My Feedback: (11)

Don't most retiree's move TO Florida?

Although after the parade of hurricanes the last 2 years, the idea has merit.

-pkh-

My Feedback: (2)

Gerald,

You're experienced plank pilot... would you recommend that someone start out with a $3000 airplane and learn to fly??

GeraldRosebery

My Feedback: (14)

Sure. If they had a lot of experience on helis and were willing to invest time on simulators and get help making sure the model flies as expected. There is nothing easier to fly than a big gas powered airplane. I personally know a guy who flew nothing BUT simulators. He is an over the road trucker and spent time every night with his sim on a notebook. He brough a ARF Extra and a heli out to the field and flew tham both very well, shocking the heck out of us. He has never flown a real model before. He said they were a whole lot easier to fly than the one in 2D on a screen.

But, you are right, I think I shall get an EVO-8 with a brushless motor and LiPO. It seems a good place to start after many hours on the sim.

-pkh-

My Feedback: (2)

Experience on planes doesn't translate over well to helis, and vice versa. Simulator experience helps tremendously for both, but you are still very likely to crash several times in the beginning.

I could fly nitro helis pretty well when I started with planes... I even soloed on my third flight/tank... but that was mainly due to my experience in the sim with planes. Still, I went through 2 planes in my first 20 solo flights, and crashed a few SPADs after that. If plane #1 was a $3000 gasser, that would have been a pretty painful entry into the hobby!

credence

My Feedback: (2)

Hey, cool, i'm not the only canadian here!

Flyfalcons

Well, it's only money. Go for it. Just remember that setting up and flying a heli is best practiced with one that will be less expensive to repair. My 10 years of fixed wing aerobatics didn't mean squat when I started flying helis.

thecheatscalc

except for the fact you knew how (cordination) to move both sticks at the same time.

WhtBronco

GeraldRosebery, after flying planes for 16 years I got into helis and found that forward flight is nearly the same as planes as far elevator and ailerons go. You just have to work the left stick a bit more. The heli will require a bit of tail rotor input in the turns and the throttle and pitch will need to be adjusted throughout the flight. I was very comfortable in forward flight on flight #5 with my Raptor 50 I started loops and rolls. I attribute this to about 2 years on the sim, Real Flight G2, and many years of flying aerobatic planes.

Unlike many others I would recommend against a small electric heli, they are just not that stable compared to a larger heli like the Joker or glow powered helis. That doesn't suggest $3k is a good place to start though. The micro electrics are cheaper to repair, but the T-Rex I have been looking at is basically the same cost as a Raptor 30 once it's all setup. After 38 flights with my Raptor 50 I have had 1 boom strike and that was after I was on the ground following an auto rotation. No crashes ths far really.

I don't know if you fly 3D with planes, but IMO 3D with planes is much harder than any flight I have done with my heli. That includes inverted, backwards and sideways I have not gotten into much 3D with the heli yet though and what I have tried with respect to 3D'ing my heli is pretty sad looking. Also if you do fly 3D you are already accustomed to using the left stick a lot which will make learning to fly helis that much easier.

GeraldRosebery

My Feedback: (14)

Thanks for your input. My interest in a large heli is purely commercial as a camera platform. All I need to do is take off, take it to a point in the sky, switch on Co-pilot (?) stabilization and take photos and then land without breaking it. I recognize that the last is certainly the hardest maneuver. I have no interest in any aerobatic maneuver of any kind. It is really like getting a big plane and learning to fly it around only in circles. I can't see that it can be that hard. I also assume that the larger the chopper the easier they are to fly, just like fixed wing aircraft. It's not that I am trying to justify paying out $3000 up front (I am, after all, married.) Everyone has told me that the micro choppers are really hard to fly in comparison to bigger ones. Also it is logical that any chopper that is designed to do 3D is certainly going to be a handfull up front as they are likely to be inherently unstable. It would seem that most choppers are designed and set up for the 3D flyer. I just wonder what is the point of learning to fly a (full scale) F16 if your intention is to fly Piper Cubs.

Here is my point. If I get a chopper designed up-front to be a wild ride and get totally frustrated trying to learn to fly something I don't need, I may never learn to fly one safely while I could always have learned to fly a stable camera platform quite adequately. Sure a 3D pilot can always fly the camera platform, but do you really need that same 3D pilot capaibility to do it?

VinceHerman

I would say that if you are looking to do this as a commercial venture, you are going to be flying around people, parked cars, buildings and such. (unless you plan on taking pictures of open fields)
Yes, you do need the higher end model heli piloting skills. Take off and land is not enough. Once you are in the air, you will have to be able to safely control it no matter what happens.
Get a sim.
Get any smaller electric heli. It does not need to be a 3D monster. I would recommend something along the lines of the T-Rex. Learn to fly it. Learn to work on it. (yes, repair and troubleshooting are skills you need to develop). THEN consider getting the big bird.

VinceHerman

Oh, for the recommendation on helis, look at these vendors:

http://hifirc.com/catalog/index.php
http://www.modefosheli.com/
http://www.allerc.com/
http://www.ronlund.com/
http://www.grandrc.com/

transmitter deals available here:
http://www.brucknerhobbies.com/
http://www.servocity.com/

thecheatscalc

we're just trying to save you from spending money on parts. Heli's are a bit different than planes as you can just stick a beginners model in the air and fly it. NO you won't get out without crashing it but you can usually just put some rubber bands back on and fly again. The heli's are a bit more delecate as even on a beggininers model hitting a blade can cause not only blade (prop) but also control rods and if you hit hard enough you could bend your tail and kill your swash as well as your servos. So if you learn on a cheap 3D one some what similar to your joker/3000 dollar one you can save your self the trouble of killing your bird and spending $300 on the first week. as you could spend 300 on a cheap 3D model (with upgrades) and crash it only loosing maybe 30 bucks on a hard crash. and besides once you get the joker (or what ever your getting) you can always hone your skills on the less stable one.

also if you wanted a 3D one as you liked your heli so much (saying you got the expensive one first) you could probably never go there as most stable heli pilots never aquired the reflexes and end up kicking the micro as it's just too hard to learn after your skills have set in. (most nitro pilots can testify on that)

PS: I do see why you'ld only want to get one as your wife would probably freak out if she saw you getting another really expensive heli after your first one.

PSS: remember no matter how stable you're always going to crash.

credence

My Feedback: (2)

Even the best setup helicopter will NOT FLY IT'S SELF.

It's not like you just lift off the ground and the helicoper will hover there with no stick input from you.

A helicopter really is like trying to balance a marble on a piece of glass. Once the helicopter starts going in a given direction, it will not stop untill you tell it to go the OTHER direction to counter it's original direction. Most newbies almost always over-counter, and you get a wild pendulum effect with the helicopter, which usually ends up with the helicopter ending up on it's side in the dirt

The joker is easy to fly, yes. So are many 30 and 50 size nitro helicopters. But the joker is a seriously powerful machine. The idea of it going out of control because of a 'dumb thumbs' error, and potentially hitting property or people is unthinkable.

As everyone else has already stated, the choice is ultimately yours of course, but starting on a MUCH cheaper (even if it's nitro) helicopter will be better for you in the longrun than crashing a $3000 helicopter (and I have no reason to doubt it'll probably be worth even more than that when it's all said and done).

The only way i'd say get the joker, is if you've spent alot of time on a sim before hand, and mastered all the basics, including nose in, forward flight, figure 8's, etc. Even then, it's a gamble, but atleast you're more prepared .

Moe3754

My Feedback: (14)

You want a camera bird here look at this one and it will lift any camera you want but it will also cost more than your joker that you want. http://www.variocanada.com/company/C..._1%20Hires.jpg

darthdrk

It was said because you can fly a plane, you can fly a heli [&:]. Well, I started out flying planes
and flying helis is very much different. Simular but just enough to cause you to wreck if you dont think about what youre doing. With a plane setting up an aproach for landing, you cut the throttle and pullback on the elevator. Do that with a heli,you are in some big trouble. There is no glide slope with helis. Everything it does its because of the pilot barring a mechanical failure. I recently got on a sim and was flying a plane. Everynow and then my brain would think Heli. Before I fly my planes again Im gonna have to do some retraining. Its been a several years since flying my planes.Basically flying helis since then.

Dezynco

Couldn't help jumping in! I got into helicopters for the same reason as you. My intentions are to fly cameras for a profit. I run a computer graphics / screenprinting / sign shop, and this will fit right into the services that I already offer.

However, even a high dollar ship with gyros and CoPilot still has to be landed, prefferably not on someones car, or worse on their head! You will need lots and lots of practice just to make the helicopter stay in one place. All the gyro and copilot will do is make the 'copter more user friendly. It will still drift around, especially if there is any wind blowing. You will also have trees, power lines, light poles, etc. to deal with. Yes,a good heading lock gyro and CoPilot will make the craft more stable, I intend to do that on my camera ship. But the CoPilot and gyro can't steer away from an oak tree! You really need to crash a less expensive helicopter a few times to see what we mean......

Good luck to you, we are all here to help if you need us!!!

BarracudaHockey

My Feedback: (11)

And bear in mind the AMA coverage doesn't apply when you use your model for any commercial purpose.

Dezynco

There is liability coverage available, I've got my insurance man working on a policy, hopefully I can add it onto my existing commercial coverage. I'm almost afraid what it's gonna cost! It may not be too much, since insurance rates are based on statistics, and statistically speaking, there are not a lot of RC helicopter/camera ships out there.....

Flyfalcons

Helis are different from planes in that whether they're setup for 3D or scale, they're all inherently unstable. Bigger helis are easier to see but when they hit, they have a lot more inertia and will break a lot more parts that cost a lot more than the smaller birds.