COLE

Hello, first post..please excuse any errors.

I have recently be given the opportunety of a lifetime and desparately need you guys to help.

I work for a small engineering/consulting/planning firm in the soultheast. I have also been an avid r/c airplane modeler for 15+ years, but have never had the ability to spend the doe to get started in helis.

My firm wants to get started in aerial photography/mapping/recon. Since I am the only person in the firm with r/c experience; I was nominated to develop a r/c platform for company use/work (hauling a camera).

While an airplane would be a no brainer for me, it has several limitations. Most noteable is takeoff and landing area. Potential job sites do not have groomed runways! Which leads me to a heli.

I have no, zilch, nada experience with helis other than my realflite simulator.

Sorry for the long shpeel but know you know my situation so I will pose my questions.

1) Every heli I have watched was flown at very close range. Can they be flown and hovered high obove the pilot; much like an airplane?

2) Given my airplane experience (which i've read is nearly useless in helis) what kind of hours of stick time will I need before I could takeoff fligh high and far out over a target, hover for a snapshot, and return safely?

3) PLEASE GIVE ME SOME EQUIPMENT RECCOMMENDATIONS!
I live in a rural area with no hobby shop, so the party line "go with what your hobby shop sells and others are flying" doesn't help.

Here are my preliminary choices (totally up for suggestions here!)
If a .30 sized machine has the oomph and the visibility for utility work: jr ergo 30 ccpm, airtronics 600 super, os 32
If it must be a .60: jr ergo sport, airtronics 600 super, os 61

Remember this will be a tool. I don't need the hot 3d acrobat.
I need a reliable, dependable, stable, easy to fly and maintain machine.

Thanks so much for your help.
P.S. I hope this board is better than the "other guy" it was awfully slow.

Jared

My Feedback: (1)

Hi, it sounds like you are in a great position. I have found that the internet provides several great resources for a situation like yours. My suggestion is to check out ronlund.com. This resource includes a link to a pilot locator, where experienced helicopter pilots are listed by geography. You can probably find a "consultant" there. This web page also includes a comprehensive online store. That way, you don't have to worry about being in a remote location; just email them and tell them what you are doing and they will give you some advice. If you have time to browse, check out your friendly local search engine and I'm sure you will find sucess in no time. There are actually companies that market complete units for aerial work like that, and maybe you can find some info there too. If none of that works for you, then take a weekend trip to memphis and we'll help you out.

MitchD

I Believe the best route for you is to contact Larry or Chris Bergen at Bergen Machine and Tool,in Cassaopolis Mi.
They build the Bergen Line of Helis including "The Observer"
which is a single engine gas heli cameraship to be used for applications like you mentioned.They are very knowledgeable,and also can point you in the right direction for anything you need in this area.Theyre client List includes NASA,NASAJPL,Different alphabet organizations of the federal govt,private firms,and more.
Tha machines are solid,thyere built here in the US,parts are available always and it works well,Its a industrial machine,costs around 15k,includes a tilt pan setup for the cam,and he can outfit it any way you like and they are very professional.Larry Bergen is probably the ultimate source for gas helis and camera ships and he wont steer you wrong,the only other way to go is with a YAmaha RMAX which is very expensive,and uses a Yamaha 80cc eng with Hirobo Mechanics(its a jointly built machine by Yamaha and Hirobo),it costs over 35K I think theyre website is http://www.bergenrc.com/Observer.asp for reference to Bergenst stuff,they also build the same in a twin engine model...
Hope this helps you out!
MitchD

Scotty740

On your question about flying helis close in. That is because it is much harder to tell their orientation than with planes. I know a guy that flies a camera ship with his wife. Although he is one of the top 3D pilots in the US he says that it's extremely hard to hover it high up and hold it steady while his wife aims the camera and takes the pictures. He said that most pictures are taken at about 300-400 feet out and about 500 feet high. I've tried holding a Raptor steady at those distances and there is no way I can do it. I just can't see it well enough to be able to hold it in position reliably.

pap

If you send me your email address I can put you in touch with a guy in my area that does just what you are talking about. I am sure he can tell you everything that you need to know. I tried to email you from this forum but you wouldn't accept emailes from here. So if you would like to get in touch with this guy send me your email address.

FordRollo

My Feedback: (1)

Cole. I have just what you're looking for. Contact me for details.

Ford
[email protected]

COLE

Thanks for all your help.

We've looked at the bergen observer. Looks great but at 15k, not an investment we are ready to make.

We have many concerns regarding flight as well as the photography/post processing of the film and the software it takes to convert pics to maps. So this is really just a trial horse to learn on both the flight and photography aspects of the project. If we like the results and continue to see a market, then we'll likely upgrade to a purpose built ship such as the observer.

Can a .30 machine carry an slr camera, or is a .60 required?

What happens to a heli when flying weight goes up?

Would the fma co pilot be worthwile for hovering high and far out?

I'm kinda leaning toward the ergo .60 sport. Its use of conventional mixing as aposed to ccpm concerns me (I don't know why being as i am quite ignorant about the machine all together!). Is it more difficult to build, more sloppy, higher maintainence?

Thanks again...I really appreciate the response.
P.S. I think I changed my profile in order to allow private messages so if someone wishes to contact me directly feel free.

eagledave

My Feedback: (1)

I am fairly new to rc heli flying (but flew the real thing). Stability is an issue and the larger heli's are more stable in windy conditions naturally due to extra weight, increased power and lift. The 30's also do not autorotate as well which could be an issue if you have strapped on an expensive camera platform.

Personally I would buy a .30 size to learn how to fly (I love my new Scadeau which is extremely stable). Next I would start out with a cheap camera setup to practice with before going with the more expensive setups. Then graduate to a larger copter and more expensive camera setup if needed.

I would also consider wireless video which would not require a stationary hover, frames could be processed individually.

There is a relatively cheap wireless camera setup at: http://www.wirelessvideocameras.com

they have quite a selection of cameras and if that is too expensive there is also a homebuilt setup detailed at:
http://www.rc-cam.com/index.htm

this camera is pretty simple to build and does work ( I have built and tested one). This little guy costs less than $200.00 (or did when I built mine). The most limiting factor is distance with this setup but then distance is a factor regardless I believe.

One other important point is that unless you have a wireless, stationary setup you will need a second person and second controller to manipulate the camera.

I hope this is helpful, I have private mail if you wish to respond.

Good luck.

COLE

Eagle, sounds like your thinking like i'm thinking.

Right now we see two uses for our ship. The first will be taking right angle photos (strait down) at app. 400 ft. of altitude. In order to process a photo into a topographic map the photo must be 90 degrees to the surface of the Earth. The second will be "oblique" angle photos. These are the down and ahead view, and could be taken at most any altitude so long as you were above visual obstacles (trees, roofs, etc). While the image from oblique photos is useless for mapping, it does make a nice "picture" for presentations, marketing, etc.

We do think this will be a two man/two radio operation, with a pilot and photographer.

We thought we would use a cheap wireless video cam to assist in framing the shot, then when the copter is in position and all looks good on the video, fire the still cam.

We will definitely start with a cheap small digital point and shoot to perfect our technique before we double the price of this rig by strapping a 35mm slr onboard!

Back to getting started flying Helis:

According to my calcs, the STARTUP expense of a .60 would be about 300 more than the STARTUP expense of a .30. The untangible here is crash expenses. The crash kits are about twice the price (.60 to .30) but how many crash kits do you guys go through learning to fly?

When I'm helping a new guy get started in model airplanes, I prep them for the inevitiable...YOU ARE GOING TO CRASH at some point in this hobby. It seems to me most novice airplane pilots crash their plane really hard (a crash that may or may not be salvageable) just once if at all. Yeah they bang them up pretty hard on botched landings and takeoffs, but nothing too bad. What I'm getting at here is if I'm likely to completely destroy this thing before I can fly it, then yeah I do need to learn to fly on a a .30 bird; but if i will only bang it up a few times and need just a couple of crash kits then why not start with a .60?

I would never reccommend a newcomer to airplanes to startout with anykind of expensive first airplane, but with the "nut and bolt" construction of a heli this may not be the case?

I know there are lots of variables on my part regaring my skill and learning speed, but surely you guys at active clubs have watched enough newcomers to have some idea what kind of abuse the machine will take prior to them becoming proficient.

Thanks again.

Skyking-RCU

My Feedback: (1)

Cole,
you might want to check out airfoilhelicam.com it might have what you would be looking for in a mount that is of a reasonable $$
On learning to fly: I think most new pilots will have several crashes before thay get comfortable with a hover. You plank experience will help (some) when you get to forward flight.
You most likely will have a couple of crahes once you get into forward flight. A simulator would help some.
Good Luck
Terry

rccc

Cole,

I urge you to contact Clarance Ragland. He is an R/C Helicopter Instructor that taught me how to fly r/c without crashes. As a full-scale fixed wing pilot, I have been brought up with takeoffs=landings. Clarance was superb in his training technique.

He can be reached at [email protected].

Bruce Oliphant

Dr.Tim

My Feedback: (1)

Give Vario Helicopters a Call - They have a Gas copter that they use for Video - Here is thier number - ask for Josef 805-553-9996 good luck on your adventure!! I have been flying RC aircraft for over 30 years and I picked up this heli stuff pretty quick!! Been flying Heli's since Early November this year and having a ball!! I even fly my Vario Gas AirWolf Around with No Problem!!
Dr.Tim

Moore-VARIO

GO with Tims advise. Call Josef at Airstar International. He is the Guru when it comes to aerial photography. He flys for the movie industry.