marteec

Hey there havent havent been flying in a few years so just not up to speed on things.
(was a competent flyer did a lot of 3D back in 98/99 when very few people were doing it but now it seems very mainstream!)

Anyway a mate of mine whose just learning bought a raptor with an OS 37 engine that im helping him break in and setup...i have a set of head loaders but have read conflicting advice about breaking in the engine ...some people stating to run it in lean to prevent seizing due to cylinder lining not heating up quickly enough and ive read else where that it should be run in rich...which is it!!??
Also i read on the OS site that engine must be run in @ full throttle...i do remember this from years back but is it still the same??...any sound advice appreciated.
Cheers,
Martin.

DebianDog

Put blades on it and hover it "rich" for a few tanks then start leaning it out. We are not in the 90's anymore

No one uses head loaders or any such non-sense anymore.

From the OS 37 manual

BarracudaHockey

My Feedback: (11)

Give those things to the kids for wiffle balls!

Fly it slightly rich for a few tanks and start leaning for power.

HeliTB

I'm using a OS 37 now. I ran the first tank 3 turns out at a little above idle sitting on the ground with blades mounted. I hovered tanks 2 thru 6 (can't remember) while leaning the needle a 1/4 turn after each tank until I got to 1.5 turns out as stated in the manual. The engine starts and stays running like a champ.

marteec

Cheers guys ran it in anyway on the headloaders slightly rich and its running sweet now.
I cant believe tho that you guys dis head loaders so much...they are an excellent tool for running your copter to check out other problems on the ground that you simply cant do with blades on!!..Fair enough that engine ran so sweet i guess i could easily have done without the head loaders and of course the blades are always going to require a slightly different mixture setting than the loaders but surely they are still very useful.
In fact this particular model had an intermittent electrical problem that only showed up after a few tanks worth of vibrations!...the servos were all going bonkers @ a certain RPM because there was a poor connection somewhere...this was a lot easier and safer to spot using headloaders.
Would be interested to hear your thoughts.
Martin.

DebianDog

Load headers are a waste of time and arguably DANGEROUS. I heard of one one guy that instisted on using them and when his helicopter (on one of those stupid stands) got loose in his garage it did no less than a few thousand in damage to the walls and his car. You want to be in a place OUTSIDE far enough away from the helicopter with room to freaking RUN.

I know HUNDREDS of heli pilots.... and know absolutely ZERO that use them. As a matter of a fact, Greg Aldeman flies $8,000 turbines and does not use them. You would think that is anyone would he would.

Load headers are an old school (planker) mind set. A helicoper is NOT designed to be tied down and NOT designed to be run with wiffle balls on it. A helicopter is not a plane. There is no need to run it at 100% throttle before takeoff. If you REALLY feel the need to go that. Flip your helicopter in to Idle Up and give it some negative pumps on the ground. Plus it looks cool!

Double or triple checking you connections or having another pilot go though your helicopter on the ground would have accomplished the same thing. But, if it make you happy fly on. errrr... load header on

marteec

Yeah fair enough...I used them for a few years(never flew a plank in my life either BTW!!)...never had to tie my heli to anything tho and never caused any damage but can see your point. ...maybe we are talking about two different things...i cant understand why youd have to tie your heli down with head loaders on it?
Still rather the prospect of giving a machine the once over @ full throttle with a set of head loaders than a set of carbon blades...which would you prefer in the noggin @ 200mph??!!

Ok..this is just one scenario that happenned the other day..my mate whose new to this bought a new raptor kit..he knew i used fly and i actually built and flew a raptor for someone when they first came out so he asked me to set it up(break engine set up pitch for a learner soften the sticks trim it and sort his gyro etc etc)
So i did all that..flew 3 or 4 tanks and handed it back to him...next day he slaps it(he can actually fly cos i taught him years ago and hes been on the sim and i know he is up to hovering the machine around etc)

So he tells me the machine went a bit crazy engine revving all over the place and basically all servos jittering all over the place once the revs were sufficient to take off and hence the crash.

So i whacked on the head loaders ran it for a bit and sure aenough after a while the servos started going mental...every servo travelling full scale deflection back and forth for several seconds and then it stops and behaves itself...now the actual cause of the problem is irrelevant to this argument but lets just say he was sold a faulty receiver.
Had i put that machine back together with new blades and checked everything over i would have either crashed the machine again or possibly injured someone...this was not going to be the case with head loaders cause there is no lift generated...
So can you see that there is the occasional use for them?
Im not having a go at anyone but would like to see how you handle finiky electrical problems that do occasionally pop up.

Cheers!
Marty

DebianDog

Well if the helicopter is not tied down what do you do if it starts to tip over? You cannot input any neg pitch.

Hey see you are from GA. A bunch of us (50-70 pilots) will be in Georgia in a few weeks (Jan 26th, 27th, 28th) for Clintstone Birthday bash (he is both the V-Blades and Miniature Aircraft Team Captain). You can expect at his party some of the best and hottest pilots in the Southeast including Markus Kim, Bobby Watts, Matt Botos, Henry Cadwell, Eric Larson, Bert Kammerer, Gordie Mead, David Harkey, the list goes on...

You should come by and talk head loaders with us! More info here http://www.helifreak.com/viewtopic.php?t=22789

Everyone is invited BTW. If nothing else just come to watch and learn.

Oh and no whining about "How far it is" People from Pennsylvania are driving to my house in Virginia on Thursday and we are heading to GA that night. It is a no miss event for us.

Hope everyone can make it.

marteec

Cheers Mate...but im actually in Ireland!!
I dont think there was an option when i registered to pick anywhere outside the Us(but i was in a rush so maybe im wrong!!)

Anyway back to the debate...there is no lift generated when you use headloaders instead of main blades so there is absolutely no fear of the machine tipping over or moving about...i think we must be talking about 2 different things.
These are what im talking about........
http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/g...adloaders-.jpg
(not a great picture i know!!)

So if we are both talking about the same thing i am under the impression you havent tried these out!...cos the heli does not move when these are on...thats the idea!!

Cheers,
Marty.

DebianDog

But I know what they are. Rods with whiffle balls at the end. Nope never seen them used by anyone I know. Just do not see the need.

marteec

Ok
Try them if you ever get a chance...they might change your opinion on them...they are NOT dangerous..if you ask me bringing a models head speed up to 1600 or so RPM with blades on it for the first time IS dangerous because you never know what might be about to happen due to materials failure!!...the model does NOT move on head loaders and you can even adjust your mixture in while the engine is running...or simply see will any linkages pop off with full cyclic and full pitch applied simultaneously without making mince meat of your model.

They simply replicate the DRAG created by your blades without the lift the sharpness! or the space required by regular blades...also they dont put the same outward centrifugal force on the head as they are a much reduced diameter than regular blades.
Give them a shot some day you have a problem...they make problem solving so much more reliable and logical than risking putting a chopper in the air every time.
all the best
Marty.

DebianDog

If they were -that- valuable you would think I would know a least ONE pilot with them. That's all I am saying.

marteec

And all im saying is ...Dont knock something till you actually try it yourself!!!!

Or at least dont go round saying its crap because someone might actually believe you.
Too many people listen to poor advice over the net and then have the foolishness to pass on that same crap advice...everyone jumped on here saying headloaders are crap/dangerous when it appears none of you have actually used them...between the time i started this thread and today i have once saved a model from a definite crash by actually using them!!...and no-one here has given a better alternative to the scenario i outlined above.(other than the idle up comment which wouldnt have worked either as the servos had their own agenda as to where they were going)

Maybe people think they are not that valuable because thats what they have been told on here!
Just like someone must have told you that you need to tie down a model whilst using them...what rubbish!!
-Or-
Maybe they are not popular anymore because models/engines etc have become so plug and play that extra care during setup is not really an issue anymore...but i dont think this is the case as we got a faulty receiver which had a bad internal connection (which only showed up with a bit of vibration) which flying the model to try and diagnose the problem would have resulted in a certain crash/injury.

Im not trying to start an argument here but i dont like people giving advice they are not qualified to give..it taints the rest of the content on this otherwise great site.
Marty.

DebianDog

I do not have to smack myself in the face to know I won't like it or it is a bad idea. If the servos had there own agenda you replace electronics, test connections, shake the helicopter around, etc. The LAST thing -I- would do is START the motor!

I like the idea of head loaders ..in principal.. BUT I have been told by the EXPERTS that it is "a waste of money" and/or "dangerous". You do not see how running a helicopter at 100% throttle with only tail control may be dangerous? Just like a helicopter stand.

This is what I been told by people that have been flying helicopters since the 70's and by the people that (over the years) have tried every screwy gadget known to the helicopter community. Of the 100's (or possibly thousands) of helicopters I have seen set up and fly at the many, many, many events I have gone to over the past 2 years... I have NEVER SEEN ANYONE USE THEM. EVER! If this tool was -that- valuable you would think I would have seen at least -one- pair being used. The only place I have ever seen them used is OLD photos and in your gallery.

I consider myself "qualified" to give this "good advice" because if I could see any benefit to me, or I was or was told to use them by ANY people I know that make RC helicopters their life that load headers were a good idea... I would.

Do I currently see a need for them ? No.
Do I recommend them for breaking in an engine? No.
Would I consider using them if I was -totally- out of other options. I suppose in a controlled environment.
Do I agree that running a head loaders is probably less dangerous than watching a guy though a camera lens while he is doing a 50 MPH hurricane 2 feet off the ground straight towards you? Yes.

Does Heliproz, Ricks, HeliHobby, or any major helicopter sales place even sell these things anymore? Nope! Just one place in the UK. Sussex-model-centre.co.uk Which gave me an idea. I just called Nathan at Ricks (he has been building, flying, and selling helicopters and parts for over 17 years) and asked him "Why they did not carry them" He said, "with higher headspeed the balls had a tendency to come off and then you would have a BIG problem on your hands". This backs up what I have always heard. Sorry you just have not sold me on the idea.

marteec

Not everyone can swap out all their electronics everytime they have an electrical problem...just like you wouldnt swap out the motor if it wasnt running right...shaking the chopper is really not enough to replicate running the engine.
I never mentioned running head loaders @ 100% throttle however I am confident enough in the loaders to do this and i have done this as recently as tonight with a pair of loaders that are 8 years old and have seen a lot of use.
Maybe in the states there were cheaper imitation loaders around that spat the balls off...the ones i have are exceptionally well built.
You also said you would consider using them in a controlled environment....this is the whole idea of loaders...they provide the controlled environment that blades do not!!..you can give full cyclic and full collective with full throttle if you like and the machine will not budge...give it some tail to load the engine some more and thats all it will do...load the engine... chopper wont budge(assuming its not on a polished floor which i expect it would just pirouette on but you woulndt have it on a polished surface to begin with)
I ask you to at least try them before you publicly announce they are "non-sense".
Marty

DebianDog

OK send me a good pair and I will

marteec

Ive only got one pair!!
No seriously...try them if you can and i think you will see they can come in useful...yeah not essential but handy for some guy say whose worried that his engine is overheating when he works the engine hard etc and he doesnt want to find out when its in the sky or doesnt want to piss about with the engine when he gets to the flying field..instead he can use these on his veranda /balcony etc. and actually fly the model at the airfield/park
Take care
Marty

DebianDog

Well the US never did make anything well. If it was not for Miniature Aircraft we would not even make a decent helicopter. [sm=lol.gif]

marteec

True!!

casper7

I would not adjust mixure screws with Head Loaders and the engine running.

They are basicly for newbies that can not hover very well or go to full throttle climb outs to tune / set-up their engine.

They still sell them in the UK for £21.99 that $39.80

marteec

They allow u to get mixtures ballpark without decapitating someone...thats all...nothing wrong with that.
Fine tuning once the heli is in the air of course

johnboyrc

If your worried about reciever glitching while running, just make a quick run up without blades or anything else in the grips. You won't have a load but you'll see problems occur if they're present. That's the first thing I did with my first heli, no problems -so on went the blades (and training gear). Breaking in the engine went quick too, I wasn't able to auto as a beginner, but hover inches off the ground and then resting on the ground worked just as well.
I've got some spare wiffle balls from my training gear, I'll sell them to ya for the right price.

marteec

But why would i bother running it with no load/blades in the grips when i posess a set of head loaders that i have used successfully for years??!!!!(please read the rest of the thread...head loaders dont cause the machine to move one bit up down left or right)
I know what your saying...but i have a pair of loaders...and i see the advantage of occasionally using them rather than not using them as you suggest!!
BTW radio glitch was happening @ ~ 1/2 -> 3/4 throttle...try 1/2 throttle with no load and see how long your engine lasts.
Marty.