I have had an itching to play with the RC helis lately. I have been flying a CX3 for a little while and feel that I am getting rather good with what it can do. My house space is limited and would like to get a heli for the great outdoors.

I have heard some of the views regarding the electrics Vs. Nitro and most seem to be focus on clean with the down side of cost for the batteries. The Nitro is cost savings for the initial price. They both seem to be close in the noise factor with the nitro a bit louder. I am looking at a Trex 600 ESP or the Thunder Tiger Raptor .50 right now. I also think I would like the scale side of heli flying with some aerobatics and not extreme 3D. Should I start with a smaller heli (450)?

Can anyone give me a view and data (if available) to helpful in choosing a heli?

Thanks!

When comparing the cost of buying/using an electric vs. a nitro, make sure to include the cost of the nitro fuel. It can add up in a hurry.

Electric is much quieter than nitro, and less messy. With electric, most of what you hear is gear against gear noise, and rotor against air noise. With nitro, you have all that plus engine noise.

Nitro usually gives longer flight times than electric, depending on fuel tank size vs. battery size.

Nitro engines require break-in and routine adjustments, brushless motors require neither.

First there are many helo specific forums you should check out.

Noise is not really a factor unless you are flying really close to houses which you shuoldn't be. You should fly with a club and get AMA but that's another story that you haven't asked about.

I have flown everything from the CX's which are really not quite a real r/c heli. to 250's, 450's, 500's, 600's in electric and 30's, 46's, 50's, 60's, 91's in glow and Gassers. Right now this minute I have 250's, 450's, 500's, 600's in electric and a .50 in glow. I just sold my .91 waiting on the new Trex 700ESP.

If you have experience in glow powered models it does make a difference because a lot of helo pilots today have no idea how to start or tune a glow motor. Also if yo uhave a lot of the electic model stuff like batteries, chargers, power supplies, kv and watt meters it makes a difference.

I do not have a Raptor .50 to compare to as my current .50 is a Hirobo Sceadu EVO .50. I do have the latest version of the 600ESP with the 600M motor running on 6S and with Align servos except the tail which has a Futaba GY520 and Futaba S9254 servo.

Both fly very good. the 600ESP has a bit more power than the EVO and it is really good right now power. The big difference is I can only fly the 600 for 6 minutes at a time. The .50 can fly for 20 minutes at a time. With extra batteries I know I can slap another in and continue but the same can be said about refilling the .50.

Cost is really about the same. You'll need the same electronics for both so take that out. The 600ESP is around $500 with motor, ESC, BEC and BEC battery. The .50 is around $370 and a motor is about $160 discounted so that's $530, pretty close. Batterys for the 600 are about $50 each and seem to be getting cheaper (and better) daily. Fuel is about $30 a gallon. I consider this to actually be in the electrics favor. Then you need support equipment, starters, glow starters, fuel pumps, and a battery for glow, a charger and battery for the electric, also pretty close to the same. Bottom line the cost is pretty close to the same.

Bottom bottom line I consider the stock 600ESP to be a bit better in the power department and maybe a bit better in the flying department compared to the Raptor. Cost is about the same. Noise and ease of cleaning are really not big factors for me but a nod goes to electric. The one bad thing is the electrics flight time, other than this my opinion is the electric wins hands down.

Also this is comparing it to a 6S 600, you can always go 12S.

I agree with the advantages/disadvantages stated above (clean vs messy, flight times, initial cost, etc). Having flown a mix of electric and nitro TRex 600's all last seaons and keeping notes, cost wise they are equal at about $1.90-$2.00 per flight (includes equalizing the upfront costs, fuel, battery life, field equipment, etc). I don't see any financial difference between then, other than one requires a significant initial cash outlay up front with very little operating costs, and the other has a lower upfront cost but much higher operating costs. In the end, after a couple hundred flights on both the electrics and nitros, the costs were even.

My recommendation would be for electric since you seem to have an interest in scale. I love the sound of the electric and the lack of exhaust smoke in my scale H500E. Putting a glow engine in it would ruin it IMO. The fuselage muffles the gear noise and changes the pitch toward a more scale sound. On slow startups, it almost sounds like a turbine spooling up which is much more scale like than a nitro. I run two batteries in it which give me flight times of over 12 minutes, and it handles the weight great and gives it a more scale like feel and appearance. With a single battery, I get around 6:30 with a reasonable reserve (25%).

If you had a stronger interest for 3D, I'd definitely recommend the nitro over the electric. If you are in a financial position to afford both, thats clearly the way to go. I enjoy flying the H500E just as much as tossing around 600N. A day at the field flying both is very satisfying.

Wow! This info is great! I am AMA and have been with the nitro and gas airplanes for a while. This is one reason why I was looking at the nitro helis. Kind of use to it. I can definitely see the advantages of the electrics in the stated scale application. I have seen several videos and agree that the electrics do have a turbine sound to them.

Are the nitro helis higher performance?

What about a starting point? Is the Trex 600 ESP electric too much to start with for a low time, sort of heli pilot (just flying the CX3)?

The electric is higher performance but both can be very powerful and you won't be at a level for it to matter for a while.

As far as a starting point, most old timers that started more than 5 years ago (not really very long ago) started with fuel helos and the most common was the .46 or .50 size, Back in the early 90's the .30 Kyosho was a popular starting helo, if you were back in the 80's it may have even been a .60. The point is you start where you have a comfort level and money to pay for a dork or two. The bigger the helo the easier to learn on. If it was me I would say start with a 600ESP though the new HK600GT is cheap but it is also unproven at this point.

Performance comparisons between electric and nitro is a double edge sword.

For equal flight times, nitros are generally more powerful than electrics. But if you don't mind trading shorter flight times, electrics can be setup to outperform nitros. Nitros basically deliver the same power level throughout the flight, and burn the same amount of fuel. With electrics, you can increase the 'fuel' consumption in order to get more power, but sacrifice overall flight times. An electric that outperforms a nitro usually only gets flight times int he 4-5 minute range at best, where Nitros can go a full 7 or 8 minutes on a tank of fuel.

A trip on YouTube searching for T-Rex600 Nitro 3D and T-Rex600 electric 3D will show you the performance level of both machines, and both can kick serious butt! If you are fairly new, you'd most likely run both at a slower pace, and get long flight times on either elec or nitro. The power difference won't be that important for a couple of seasons at best.

sfaust - Thanks for the info. This is very good comments.

I have heard that the bigger helis are best because of stability or less fluttery. I think I will start with the Trex 600 ESP. It seems that this is a common name. I think the electric would be easier to carry in my care and not have to worry about oil on the seats. I hope it is a good one.

- Am I going to need a PhD to set it up? I do know of a guy that has a heli, but I don't know how experienced.

- If I can fly the CX3 do I need training gear on the Trex 600?

- What can I do to tame it down for a little while?

Thanks guys!!

sfaust - Thanks for the info. This is very good comments.

I have heard that the bigger helis are best because of stability or less fluttery. I think I will start with the Trex 600 ESP. It seems that this is a common name. I think the electric would be easier to carry in my car and not worry about oil on the seats. I hope it is a good one.

- Am I going to need a PhD to set it up? I do know of a guy at our club that has a heli, but I don't know how experienced. never seen him fly.

- If I can fly the CX3 do I need training gear on the Trex 600?

- What can I do to tame it down for a little while?

Thanks guys!!

You will not be disappointed with a TRex, much less a 600ESP.

Not really. The 600 is a CCPM helicopter, once you understand this, and understand the radio selected, you will understand all of them. Its like math in college, when you saw it for the first time, it was intimidating, but then after a while, it became second nature (sorry for the comparison, I'm an engineer with a Math minor)

Since you are making such a big jump, it would be highly advisable.

keep the head speed in the lower side of the range, also keep the throws in the lower side of the range. you don't need -13 to +13 degrees of pitch or 8 degrees of cyclic when starting. Dial those down and potentially add some weight to the flybar. If you have any questions about these suggestions just ask.

Hope I helped a bit.

Rafael

Trex 600 is a great heli to start with. You've already gotten great advice on electric vs. nitro and it seems you've made your mind up on that so I don't have anything to add.

Flying a CP heli like the Trex 600 is going to be VERY VERY different from the CX. Coaxial helis like the CX practically fly themselves, CP helis are inherently unstable. To get an idea what it's like flying a CP heli, imagine holding a square piece of glass horizontally and trying to keep a marble in the middle of it.

If you haven't already, investing in a flight simulator like Great Planes Real Flight is a good idea.

They are fairly complicated to setup. Nice thing about Align is they have better manuals than the cheap clones. But you'll definitely want to get help from an experienced pilot. Also look for finless bobs trex setup videos. I think they're mostly for the 450 but the principles are the same.

To learn how to fly, look up Radds School of Rotary Flight. It will get you in the air with the minimum amount of crashes. Oh ya, you WILL crash

Again... Thanks EVERYONE for the help! It is exciting to start on a new project or path.

It sounds like the heli choice is good.

Any suggestions on reducing damage by crashing properly? I am asking the question and it still sounds funny!! With the airplanes, I always tried to stay a few crashes high when I first started. Helis seem to require you to fly close to yourself and the ground when starting.

I will get the training "wheels" and buy a simulator as recommended and seek assistance. Anything else to reduce the learning curve and money loss?

Thanks!!!

Those 3 little things right there will take you really far.

Rafael

Thanks Rafael.

And here I go... Heli is ordered!

Stay close to the ground until you get the hang of basic tail-in hover, then move up and progress slowly. Again, Radd's has some tips on how to progress without crashing (as much).

The other key thing to remember when you're about to crash is to make sure you hit throttle hold before you hit the ground

If a crash if about to happen and no hope of saving, make sure either your throttle is all the way down or you switch "throttle hold" before you hit the ground. That will minimize damage to lots of stuff.

And, as with planes, trying new things at 2 or 3 mistakes high also applies to helis ... after you learn to hover. Oh, and a computer simulator is a good idea for learning to hover and also for trying new maneuvers.

Lastly, your heli is fairly large and can do some damage to people or things (car, house, etc), so be safe. Take off from the ground at least 15 feet from you, and way more than that from other people. Think of it as an unprotected lawnmower, and you should be ok.

Have Fun!

Thanks gnd2 & Beachcomber!

The throttle hold thing is not part of my current emergency procedures! I definitely need to pound this into my head.

I guess the 2 to 3 mistakes high could apply to the helis also, once I can do the basics or get the nerve! And the open lawn mower is a very good point. The wife wouldn't like me to give notice of the cat being involved in a helicopter crash!

OK, I have been looking for a simulator that has the Trex 600 on it or similar. I can not find one. I heard the Top Flight G5 is very good or the best. But I want a simulator that is like my heli so I will not be "comfortable" with a heli that isn't even close to how mine flies.

Any suggestions on a simulator brand or type?

THANKS!!

No simulator is going to be exactly like your heli without some tweaking. Even two Trex 600's can fly very different from each other depending on the setups. Sims can get close but they're never quite the same as the real thing.

Real Flight (I think that's what you meant, not Top Flight) has several models that will be close enough to get you used to hovering, orientation and many maneuvers. You can also download models created by others.

Phoenix includes more of the current popular models, including the Trex 600 so you might want to look into that one. I haven't tried it but I think it's supposed to be pretty good as well.

gnd2 - I will check it out. Thanks again for the info!

In addition to Real Flight and Phoenix, a friend of mine has Clearview sim and it seems fairly realistic and not too expensive. If you go with Real Flight, make sure your computer has enough "horsepower" to run the program.

Have Fun.

One thing that wasn't mentioned is to use the softer head dampeners when you build the kit. These go into the head block where the feathering shaft inserts into. If you use a low head speed (recommended) and have the black dampeners installed, it'll wobble and look like it's gonna come down. Use the gray ones. Also use the included 14 tooth pinion on your motor so you can also keep the RPMs low.
Down the road another thing to keep in mind is that when you want to boost the performance of the heli, you can always add more cells. This is the one advantage that the electric helis have over the nitros. The stock Align electronics won't work with more than 6 cells so you'd have to do some upgrading, but I think it might be more important to learn how to fly the heli before you start thinking about that.

Modelfun2,

I'd suggest going S L O W in your learning flights. As has been said, a collective pitch 600 size heli is about as large of a jump as you can make from a coaxial. Most guys go from coaxial to a 450 size and then 500 or 600. In regards to crashing, I'd suggest making sure you're willing to spend a minimum of $100.00 for every 600 size crash. Blades will be the most expensive part. At this size, do not waste your time with wood blades. Use CF or at bare minimum, fiberglass. 450 helis are a lot less expensive to repair. If you do decide to get the 600, MAKE SURE you have someone VERY experienced with heli setup. This size is more likely to kill you than injure you. Whatever you do, take your time. High end helicopters are not for the "instant gratification" crowd. They take time to build, tweak, build, tweak, build etc. (Notice I said build more than once ;-) )

As was mentioned, RADD'S is a good resource however the basics to master are:

- Takeoff and landing nose out (as SMOOTHLY as possible)
- Hover all orientations (nose out, nose in, nose right, nose left)
- Forward flight/backwards flight (keeping nose out, then nose in)
- Rotate/Spin/Piro right 360 degrees, left 360 degrees
- Takeoff and landing nose in
- Right hand/Left hand circles
- Figure 8’s in both directions

Other than hovering, make sure you're always 2-3 mistakes high. This is where a 600 really helps because unlike a 450 (which disappears fast) you can see it pretty far.

Last words of advice... Take B A B Y S T E P S. If it takes you 3 months to learn how to hover in one spot, accept that and chalk it up as experience, which there is NO replacement for.

Good luck!

The advice given above is just spot-on and some of the best you will ever get (even if you paid money for it!) When you start on the simulator it will be hard adjusting to the field of vision limitations of a 2D computer screen, but start there and learn to hover. Don't treat it like a video game, practice like it's for real every time. You will save the price of the simulator in crash costs and time your first evening using it! Use RADD's system and if it takes you 3 months of evenings to get tail in hover down, that's fine. The wild 3D videos you see online are not from people with a year or less in the hobby. The sim will allow you to progress faster, but you will still have to build up the muscle memory for each new maneuver and that's where the sim excels- just push the reset button and you're back flying with no down time for parts, building and setup. Good luck with the 600, you're going to have a blast!

Great advice from all. I too came from Planks. Hovering is difficult to master but once you do, you'll be off. Then the next big jump after learning orientations will "heading outbound" Huge jump, but just be aware these fly similar to planes in reference to the airleron/elavator turns your used to but you HAVE to use the rudder when turning. The only different advice I can give you is the "Nose In" stuff. It has been over 4 years and I still don't do it. I attempted it briefly and it was very uncomfortable. The reason I recommend not attempting it initially is it is very disorienting and with such a large/dangerous helo, you won't want any doubt of your control of it. Wait till you spool this thing up. Just awesome!, but be careful. Nose in is like flying toward yourself with a plank. Can you do it? Sure, but not for long before you wanted to change direction and you surely won't land that way. If you were going for 3D ,then definately practice it. For scale/sport flying it really isn't necessary. You have already most likely developed the "in the cockpit" point of reference when flying. Do the same with the helo. When you do venture out for your first "lap""Circuit", keep it moving! My first crash on my 5th circuit was due to losing airspeed and it was hovering on the back side of my circuit and I lost it. It was with a Blade CP pro. If you can fly one of those, you can fly anything. After my 450, my .30 Nitro Hawk Sport was a dream come true. Be careful and the best of luck with your new addiction.

Chris

I've chosen to stick with electric because I like that option of hovering my heli in my backyard without making much noise that could irritate my neighbors. Also, I want to be able to fly indoors or hover the heli in the house during winter when I don't like flying outside. These rc helis are expensive and I don't want them just collecting dusts during winter.