Downwind turn Myth
#976
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RE: Downwind turn Myth
OK, why is everyone too lazy to do the obvious?
Someone, PLEASE, make a little simulator video!!!
Set up a 20 kt wind right down the runway. Fly a cub in an oval circuit just above "stall speed" (I know, I know, there's no such thing as stall "speed", only stall AOA).
I think you can even do it with the little window that shows stick movements, can't you?
Then everyone can see the proof with their own eyes. The plane will NOT lose any more altitude turning downwind than turning upwind. At least not if the pilot keeps stick movements pretty much the same both ways. As I have said before, the turns will LOOK very different at each end of the circuit if stick movements are the same, and if you keep your thumb off the throttle.
Just don't anyone do it until we hit 1000, OK?
I admit I'm too lazy to do it. (Unless maybe the dinner offer applies to simulator videos too). I much prefer this armchair philosophizing. Seems to make time stand still, no?
#971 and honored to be part of the grand campaign to "1000"
Someone, PLEASE, make a little simulator video!!!
Set up a 20 kt wind right down the runway. Fly a cub in an oval circuit just above "stall speed" (I know, I know, there's no such thing as stall "speed", only stall AOA).
I think you can even do it with the little window that shows stick movements, can't you?
Then everyone can see the proof with their own eyes. The plane will NOT lose any more altitude turning downwind than turning upwind. At least not if the pilot keeps stick movements pretty much the same both ways. As I have said before, the turns will LOOK very different at each end of the circuit if stick movements are the same, and if you keep your thumb off the throttle.
Just don't anyone do it until we hit 1000, OK?
I admit I'm too lazy to do it. (Unless maybe the dinner offer applies to simulator videos too). I much prefer this armchair philosophizing. Seems to make time stand still, no?
#971 and honored to be part of the grand campaign to "1000"
#978
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (2)
RE: Downwind turn Myth
OK, why is everyone too lazy to do the obvious?
Someone, PLEASE, make a little simulator video!!!
Set up a 20 kt wind right down the runway. Fly a cub in an oval circuit just above "stall speed" (I know, I know, there's no such thing as stall "speed", only stall AOA).
I think you can even do it with the little window that shows stick movements, can't you?
Then everyone can see the proof with their own eyes. The plane will NOT lose any more altitude turning downwind than turning upwind. At least not if the pilot keeps stick movements pretty much the same both ways. As I have said before, the turns will LOOK very different at each end of the circuit if stick movements are the same, and if you keep your thumb off the throttle.
Someone, PLEASE, make a little simulator video!!!
Set up a 20 kt wind right down the runway. Fly a cub in an oval circuit just above "stall speed" (I know, I know, there's no such thing as stall "speed", only stall AOA).
I think you can even do it with the little window that shows stick movements, can't you?
Then everyone can see the proof with their own eyes. The plane will NOT lose any more altitude turning downwind than turning upwind. At least not if the pilot keeps stick movements pretty much the same both ways. As I have said before, the turns will LOOK very different at each end of the circuit if stick movements are the same, and if you keep your thumb off the throttle.
#979
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RE: Downwind turn Myth
ORIGINAL: highhorse
It's because those who don't want to believe now won't believe a vid either...they'll pick apart the software or something else rather than suffer the indignity of admitting they were wrong all along.
OK, why is everyone too lazy to do the obvious?
Someone, PLEASE, make a little simulator video!!!
Set up a 20 kt wind right down the runway. Fly a cub in an oval circuit just above ''stall speed'' (I know, I know, there's no such thing as stall ''speed'', only stall AOA).
I think you can even do it with the little window that shows stick movements, can't you?
Then everyone can see the proof with their own eyes. The plane will NOT lose any more altitude turning downwind than turning upwind. At least not if the pilot keeps stick movements pretty much the same both ways. As I have said before, the turns will LOOK very different at each end of the circuit if stick movements are the same, and if you keep your thumb off the throttle.
Someone, PLEASE, make a little simulator video!!!
Set up a 20 kt wind right down the runway. Fly a cub in an oval circuit just above ''stall speed'' (I know, I know, there's no such thing as stall ''speed'', only stall AOA).
I think you can even do it with the little window that shows stick movements, can't you?
Then everyone can see the proof with their own eyes. The plane will NOT lose any more altitude turning downwind than turning upwind. At least not if the pilot keeps stick movements pretty much the same both ways. As I have said before, the turns will LOOK very different at each end of the circuit if stick movements are the same, and if you keep your thumb off the throttle.
A sublime faith in human imbecility has seldom led those who cherish it astray.
Henry Ellis
#980
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RE: Downwind turn Myth
I posted months ago about having actually done 3 consecutive 360's into and out of a 100+ knot wind (well over 200 kts cumulative groundspeed difference) in a 320,000 lb airplane that was within 30 kts of stall speed for those conditions. Once established in the turn, with a million $$ worth of auto pilot doing the flying so I could stay kicked back and relaxed.....
Nothing. No trim changes, no throttle changes, NO AIRSPEED CHANGES......nothing. Why? Cus what I said in post #1 is absolutely true. An airborne aircraft is completely unaffected and doesn't give s sh^t where the (steady state) wind is from. PERIOD. If that weren't the case then I'd have been 170kts below stall speed when downwind and would not be alive to type here in this thread.
What else is there to talk about?
Nothing. No trim changes, no throttle changes, NO AIRSPEED CHANGES......nothing. Why? Cus what I said in post #1 is absolutely true. An airborne aircraft is completely unaffected and doesn't give s sh^t where the (steady state) wind is from. PERIOD. If that weren't the case then I'd have been 170kts below stall speed when downwind and would not be alive to type here in this thread.
What else is there to talk about?
#983
RE: Downwind turn Myth
ORIGINAL: highhorse
Exactly. I was turning into and out of a 100kt+ jetstream and I didn't die.
Go figure.
Exactly. I was turning into and out of a 100kt+ jetstream and I didn't die.
Go figure.
And dont try this in a simulator, its not the same either. Real planes use airmolecules, FS uses electrons which can turn a lot easier and travel faster.
#985
Thread Starter
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RE: Downwind turn Myth
ORIGINAL: Moerig
I dont get that one, never seen a pelican do it so it cannot be safe....also turning in/out of a jetstream is not a steady state condition. Once in it it may be. For safety we always fly into a jetstream, it does slow you down a bit but at least you dont have to turn downwind.
And dont try this in a simulator, its not the same either. Real planes use airmolecules, FS uses electrons which can turn a lot easier and travel faster.
ORIGINAL: highhorse
Exactly. I was turning into and out of a 100kt+ jetstream and I didn't die.
Go figure.
Exactly. I was turning into and out of a 100kt+ jetstream and I didn't die.
Go figure.
And dont try this in a simulator, its not the same either. Real planes use airmolecules, FS uses electrons which can turn a lot easier and travel faster.
#986
RE: Downwind turn Myth
ORIGINAL: highhorse
I'm gonna give u the benefit of the doubt and assume ur kidding? It's getting pretty hard to tell...........
ORIGINAL: Moerig
I dont get that one, never seen a pelican do it so it cannot be safe....also turning in/out of a jetstream is not a steady state condition. Once in it it may be. For safety we always fly into a jetstream, it does slow you down a bit but at least you dont have to turn downwind.
And dont try this in a simulator, its not the same either. Real planes use airmolecules, FS uses electrons which can turn a lot easier and travel faster.
ORIGINAL: highhorse
Exactly. I was turning into and out of a 100kt+ jetstream and I didn't die.
Go figure.
Exactly. I was turning into and out of a 100kt+ jetstream and I didn't die.
Go figure.
And dont try this in a simulator, its not the same either. Real planes use airmolecules, FS uses electrons which can turn a lot easier and travel faster.
JUST 20 POSTS TO GO!
#987
My Feedback: (6)
RE: Downwind turn Myth
ORIGINAL: roger.alli
Just to keep the post count up.
http://www.youtube.com/embed/2eYoymfSqN0''
These guy know aerodynamics.
Just to keep the post count up.
http://www.youtube.com/embed/2eYoymfSqN0''
These guy know aerodynamics.
#988
RE: Downwind turn Myth
ORIGINAL: highhorse
I posted months ago about having actually done 3 consecutive 360's into and out of a 100+ knot wind (well over 200 kts cumulative groundspeed difference) in a 320,000 lb airplane that was within 30 kts of stall speed for those conditions. Once established in the turn, with a million $$ worth of auto pilot doing the flying so I could stay kicked back and relaxed.....
Nothing. No trim changes, no throttle changes, NO AIRSPEED CHANGES......nothing. Why? Cus what I said in post #1 is absolutely true. An airborne aircraft is completely unaffected and doesn't give s sh^t where the (steady state) wind is from. PERIOD. If that weren't the case then I'd have been 170kts below stall speed when downwind and would not be alive to type here in this thread.
What else is there to talk about?
I posted months ago about having actually done 3 consecutive 360's into and out of a 100+ knot wind (well over 200 kts cumulative groundspeed difference) in a 320,000 lb airplane that was within 30 kts of stall speed for those conditions. Once established in the turn, with a million $$ worth of auto pilot doing the flying so I could stay kicked back and relaxed.....
Nothing. No trim changes, no throttle changes, NO AIRSPEED CHANGES......nothing. Why? Cus what I said in post #1 is absolutely true. An airborne aircraft is completely unaffected and doesn't give s sh^t where the (steady state) wind is from. PERIOD. If that weren't the case then I'd have been 170kts below stall speed when downwind and would not be alive to type here in this thread.
What else is there to talk about?
#989
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RE: Downwind turn Myth
While I agree that airspeed is certainly different than ground speed, I disagree that wind has no effect when turning upwind or downwind. The aircraft has mass (weight) and needs time to accelerate or slow down (relative to ground speed) to maintain the same airspeed. Take a relatively heavy (scale ship) plane, fly it upwind on windy day, make a relatively quick 180º turn to downwind and watch what happens. The plane will drop because it cannot accelerate fast enough (due to its mass) to maintain the same airspeed when turning downwind. That is why experienced pilots will add some throttle as they begin their downwind turn.
Dave S.
(yes the plane will fly from the moving treadmill )
Dave S.
(yes the plane will fly from the moving treadmill )
#990
My Feedback: (6)
RE: Downwind turn Myth
The aircraft has mass (weight) and needs time to accelerate or slow down (relative to ground speed) to maintain the same airspeed.
It's probably time for another post saying that gusts affect airspeed so the "myth" proponents are full of it. 15 to go!
#992
RE: Downwind turn Myth
ORIGINAL: Selleri
Futaba vs JR...
ORIGINAL: highhorse
I posted months ago about having actually done 3 consecutive 360's into and out of a 100+ knot wind (well over 200 kts cumulative groundspeed difference) in a 320,000 lb airplane that was within 30 kts of stall speed for those conditions. Once established in the turn, with a million $$ worth of auto pilot doing the flying so I could stay kicked back and relaxed.....
Nothing. No trim changes, no throttle changes, NO AIRSPEED CHANGES......nothing. Why? Cus what I said in post #1 is absolutely true. An airborne aircraft is completely unaffected and doesn't give s sh^t where the (steady state) wind is from. PERIOD. If that weren't the case then I'd have been 170kts below stall speed when downwind and would not be alive to type here in this thread.
What else is there to talk about?
I posted months ago about having actually done 3 consecutive 360's into and out of a 100+ knot wind (well over 200 kts cumulative groundspeed difference) in a 320,000 lb airplane that was within 30 kts of stall speed for those conditions. Once established in the turn, with a million $$ worth of auto pilot doing the flying so I could stay kicked back and relaxed.....
Nothing. No trim changes, no throttle changes, NO AIRSPEED CHANGES......nothing. Why? Cus what I said in post #1 is absolutely true. An airborne aircraft is completely unaffected and doesn't give s sh^t where the (steady state) wind is from. PERIOD. If that weren't the case then I'd have been 170kts below stall speed when downwind and would not be alive to type here in this thread.
What else is there to talk about?
#993
Thread Starter
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RE: Downwind turn Myth
ORIGINAL: Cosmicwind
While I agree that airspeed is certainly different than ground speed, I disagree that wind has no effect when turning upwind or downwind. The aircraft has mass (weight) and needs time to accelerate or slow down (relative to ground speed) to maintain the same airspeed. Take a relatively heavy (scale ship) plane, fly it upwind on windy day, make a relatively quick 180º turn to downwind and watch what happens. The plane will drop because it cannot accelerate fast enough (due to its mass) to maintain the same airspeed when turning downwind. That is why experienced pilots will add some throttle as they begin their downwind turn.
Dave S.
(yes the plane will fly from the moving treadmill )
While I agree that airspeed is certainly different than ground speed, I disagree that wind has no effect when turning upwind or downwind. The aircraft has mass (weight) and needs time to accelerate or slow down (relative to ground speed) to maintain the same airspeed. Take a relatively heavy (scale ship) plane, fly it upwind on windy day, make a relatively quick 180º turn to downwind and watch what happens. The plane will drop because it cannot accelerate fast enough (due to its mass) to maintain the same airspeed when turning downwind. That is why experienced pilots will add some throttle as they begin their downwind turn.
Dave S.
(yes the plane will fly from the moving treadmill )
#994
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RE: Downwind turn Myth
ORIGINAL: Moerig
Ok, I am kidding about the pelicans...
JUST 20 POSTS TO GO!
ORIGINAL: highhorse
I'm gonna give u the benefit of the doubt and assume ur kidding? It's getting pretty hard to tell...........
ORIGINAL: Moerig
I dont get that one, never seen a pelican do it so it cannot be safe....also turning in/out of a jetstream is not a steady state condition. Once in it it may be. For safety we always fly into a jetstream, it does slow you down a bit but at least you dont have to turn downwind.And dont try this in a simulator, its not the same either. Real planes use airmolecules, FS uses electrons which can turn a lot easier and travel faster.
ORIGINAL: highhorse
Exactly. I was turning into and out of a 100kt+ jetstream and I didn't die.
Go figure.
Exactly. I was turning into and out of a 100kt+ jetstream and I didn't die.
Go figure.
JUST 20 POSTS TO GO!
And because you refuse to understand what should have been an obvious point, I will clarify; The 360's were all conducted within the stream. The jetstream is no some tube of air on can enter and exit within the span of a 360 turn. Go make your living in it for 26 years and then come back and tell us we the "we" is in the highlighted sentence.
#995
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RE: Downwind turn Myth
ORIGINAL: highhorse
Oh for crying out loud, read the thread. See that this notion has been beaten to death and corrected a dozen or more times at least.
ORIGINAL: Cosmicwind
While I agree that airspeed is certainly different than ground speed, I disagree that wind has no effect when turning upwind or downwind. The aircraft has mass (weight) and needs time to accelerate or slow down (relative to ground speed) to maintain the same airspeed. Take a relatively heavy (scale ship) plane, fly it upwind on windy day, make a relatively quick 180º turn to downwind and watch what happens. The plane will drop because it cannot accelerate fast enough (due to its mass) to maintain the same airspeed when turning downwind. That is why experienced pilots will add some throttle as they begin their downwind turn.
Dave S.
(yes the plane will fly from the moving treadmill )
While I agree that airspeed is certainly different than ground speed, I disagree that wind has no effect when turning upwind or downwind. The aircraft has mass (weight) and needs time to accelerate or slow down (relative to ground speed) to maintain the same airspeed. Take a relatively heavy (scale ship) plane, fly it upwind on windy day, make a relatively quick 180º turn to downwind and watch what happens. The plane will drop because it cannot accelerate fast enough (due to its mass) to maintain the same airspeed when turning downwind. That is why experienced pilots will add some throttle as they begin their downwind turn.
Dave S.
(yes the plane will fly from the moving treadmill )
#996
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RE: Downwind turn Myth
ORIGINAL: highhorse
The jetstream is no some tube of air on can enter and exit within the span of a 360 turn.
The jetstream is no some tube of air on can enter and exit within the span of a 360 turn.
#997
RE: Downwind turn Myth
ORIGINAL: highhorse
Too bad u were only kidding about the pelicans, cus most of what u posted was bunk. Read the thread for hundreds of explanations why.
And because you refuse to understand what should have been an obvious point, I will clarify; The 360's were all conducted within the stream. The jetstream is no some tube of air on can enter and exit within the span of a 360 turn. Go make your living in it for 26 years and then come back and tell us we the ''we'' is in the highlighted sentence.
ORIGINAL: Moerig
Ok, I am kidding about the pelicans...
JUST 20 POSTS TO GO!
ORIGINAL: highhorse
I'm gonna give u the benefit of the doubt and assume ur kidding? It's getting pretty hard to tell...........
ORIGINAL: Moerig
I dont get that one, never seen a pelican do it so it cannot be safe....also turning in/out of a jetstream is not a steady state condition. Once in it it may be. For safety we always fly into a jetstream, it does slow you down a bit but at least you dont have to turn downwind.And dont try this in a simulator, its not the same either. Real planes use airmolecules, FS uses electrons which can turn a lot easier and travel faster.
ORIGINAL: highhorse
Exactly. I was turning into and out of a 100kt+ jetstream and I didn't die.
Go figure.
Exactly. I was turning into and out of a 100kt+ jetstream and I didn't die.
Go figure.
JUST 20 POSTS TO GO!
And because you refuse to understand what should have been an obvious point, I will clarify; The 360's were all conducted within the stream. The jetstream is no some tube of air on can enter and exit within the span of a 360 turn. Go make your living in it for 26 years and then come back and tell us we the ''we'' is in the highlighted sentence.
Anyway I know nothing about jetstreams. I am assuming the transition is not an abrupt one but steady/progressive. I would assume such a stream is pretty wide as well.
#999
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RE: Downwind turn Myth
ORIGINAL: ceecrb1
Flying dogs
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