RCJetBazz

I'm speaking basic principals, may not be enforceable in China, but applicable worldwide and certainly enforceable in the US.

so inferior materials will work well in China and UK?

BillJohnson

Who says they are inferior. What experience do you have in this regard. I dont think anyone has seen the turbine yet

Jgwright

While you guys have been bickering the latest exciting instalment of the engine videos is out. Bruce has still got the engine mounts the wrong way round and is does not look like he has started it as he is getting an error message on the ecu. From what he says there is no danger that a production engine will arrive sometime soon.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=rF8lVdlsBFs

John

Henke Torphammar

I think it has to do with the $$ spent. As most Hobbyking products cost a one or two digit number most people don't mind if one servo out of 10 doesn't work. The airframe that crash due to the faulty servo probably only bounced on the ground. ie no problem and most are still happy. However when selling stuff that cost a 4digit number it's all of a sudden worth the effort of useing the warranty. Then the true face of HK will show even more.


As for the Dangerousness of a turbine I think their $65 600size helis can do atleast the same amount of damage as a turbine airplane. I rather se a problem where people are getting unhappy as they can't get their turbine plane up in the air then that you will se turbineplanes crash all over the place.

Henke Torphammar

It probably says someting completely out of the box such as "bad glow"

Airplanes400

My Feedback: (349)

Throughout industries, the most expensive cost to any product are; the initial R&D, production, and labor. R&D, production and labor costs are less expensive overseas, in paticular India and China. That is why many raw materials are exported to other countries, then imported back to the USA for distribution and sale. Labor and production are usually 60% of the final cost of the finished product. Bringing labor overseas can reduce labor costs by as much as 90%. That brings labor costs down to 5% or 8% instead of 60%.

Materials can be as little as .001%, or as much as 21% of the cost.

Regardless, there is usually a 90~100% mark-up as the retail level. That equates to their cost being 50 to 60% of the selling price. At the manufacturing level, the final cost of a finished product can be as little as .1% to 20% of the retail price.

Anyone who tells you at the retail level that their cost is only 10% less than their selling price, is lying. There is no way any store or company can exist with just a 10% profit from the sale of a product. Maybe their final (net) profit is 10% after paying all overhead expenses (rent, payroll, taxes, loan expenses, insurance, etc), but not their gross profit. If their gross profit was 10%, they'd be operating in the red, and be out of business quickly.

So, manufacturing overseas is a viable method of keeping product costs down, while keeping profits as high as possible.

Gold has a 500% markup on the retail level, while diamonds have a 1000% markup on the retail level. That means, the $3000 diamond you got for your wife or girlfriend actually cost the dealer just $300. (Three hundred dollars).

Xairflyer

My Feedback: (1)

that would have really confused him as it is meant to be kero start

alasdair

Retail Markup! You are right, that's where the Chinese may score I think.

Years ago (1990s) I wanted a new radio set, the latest super radio being the JR388.
My LHS price was £565, and the big mail order discounters were doing it for something like £515 plus P&P.

I went into a LHS in Hong Kong (on a regular work trip) and the helpful proprietor (Kevin Lee) offered exacly the same set with better servos, 35 MHz, European spec and approval stickers, for £235. Spread over half a dozen visits I bought two and a half sets (and the two Tx are still in use with 2.4 GHz modules).

Assuming the price was the same at the factory gates in Japan, and allowing for15% UK tax (back then) and 1% carriage for the extra shippingdistance, the UK distributor and retailer must operate on vastly greater margins than the Hong Kong distributor and shop.

Is this still true today?
Or has the advent of cross border mail order selling cut out some middle men and brought in more realistic margins? I bought my new Spektrum radio in the UK, at a price notoutragously above the US price, or worldwide internet prices.

I noticed that HobbyKing are now selling a £9 copy of the GermanPowerBox Sensor switch that I bought in the UK for £80

I'll be interested to see if they can do that fopr turbines, but I really doubt it.

Xairflyer

My Feedback: (1)

6 months ago I lost my LAN tester (cat5/network cable tester, can be used to test jetcat data leads) I was in my local maplin store and they had one listed for £9.95 which I thought was great as I paid £69 for mine about ten years ago.
It was out of stock so thought I will order it online when I get back home, I looked on ebay and got the same one from china for 99p Yes £0.99p with 96p postage!!
Other electronic suppliers are selling the same one for £19.95

It is all about volume, just look at the mobile phone accessories, phone shops charging £20+ for a phone cover/case/charger when the same thing can be bought on ebay for less than £2

Sport_Pilot

It's Chinese, Dude!

rgburrill

And tied into an FPV systemby someone who doesn't believe he must keep visual contact with his jet!

I_Fly

I've made several of these bargan purchases over the past few years. Most worked out but a few haven't. One was a name brand battery charger for a digital camera. $75 +shipping in the US and a six week wait due to some type of back order. I found it online for $7 including shipping through ebay. It was clearly labled as comming from China. How coult I go wrong for 1/10th the cost? As with other things like thisit arrived in a week or two andlookedgood.Still skeptical I plugged it in to charge the battery. The indicator light came on so I thought all was good. The next day my battery was still dead.The battery was not the issue since it charges just fine using one of my airplane chargers and alegator clips.The new charger was junk. Something that was either not checked or failed the inspection durring manufacturer. Overall these things work out but sometimes you get burned.It should be well known by now that many of these overseesitemsdidn't makethequalitybenchmark.

HKis similar. Don't expect great severice because that is not part of their business plan. Be careful what you order and don't be shocked or dissapointed if it does not work out.My experiance, even with using customer service, has been good but I know it's that every order is a roll of the dice. My guess is someone with jet experianceandmay be able to get these to work just fine. Somone without jet experiance?

john josey

Is it going to come down to how much your willing to gamble ?

OliverJacob

My Feedback: (12)

One thing they will accomplish is that the prices for turbines will come down, if theirs is somewhat reliable.
Now the material costs are a very small fraction of the product price, HK will be able to sell a turbine for much less then everybody else.

Now there are many modelers who want a turbine, but are not willing to pay for one. If they get a HK turbine and it turns out to be junk, they might just break down and buy a better one, they still want one and they bought the plane to put it in...

We have seen an early stage of testing, no one knows much about it. They will have to do extensive testing, customers are rather skeptical and don't want to be the first ones to buy this. But a lot of people are interested in this.

Let's see what they will come up with

Shaun Evans

Hi,

My prediction is a bunch of deadsticks and couple of fires. That's the optimistic guess. That doesn't account for the thrown wheels and bits of sub-par metal flying out of airframes into peoples' faces...

Dr Honda

My Feedback: (4)

yellowaircraft is right.


This isn't a glow engine... or a big electric motor. When a turbine fails... parts can go flying... and fuel is being pumped into it, causing a fire. JetJoe was lucky that no one was hurt with some of their original stuff.

I hope they come out with a good engine though.

BinkeyBo

So much speculation. Dont you think we should all wait and see and be pleased that 'others' are trying to help us in this hobby by bringing less expensive things to market so that we all have wider choices

GerKonig

He is not, pure speculation on a product not STILL available. and you have the brain surgeons already commenting on the quality of a non-existent (for sale) product.

I am looking forward to real reviews of real users, of a real product, whenever it materializes... and If I would be a dealer (of anything) of the competence, I would also wait to have the product available and tested before creating doomsday scenarios. Why? Because I do not think it is smart marketing or brand building to do otherwise. But, what do I know...

Gerry

Shaun Evans

Hi,

Call me jaded, but I don't think HK's motive is to 'help us' and if their business model is any indication, it's a bad type of product to bring to market with cheap materials, non-existent QC and poor service.

Gero, thank you for the advice. It's reassuring and uplifting to know what you'd do as a dealer. Somehow, I doubt you'll be first in line for one of these new engines, though...

BinkeyBo

Have you ever spoken to the owners of Hobby King. I have and in my view their business model is indeed to help bring less expensive things to market to held more people get into model flying. I accept of course that they wish to make money as well.

Let us wait and see.

Shaun Evans

Hi,

No, I haven't spoken directly to them. If their intent is to help, then I would hope they'd start taking some responsibility for their QC. Their reputation for dealing with defective or missing merchandise leaves much to be desired. The problem I have with the 'wait and see' approach is that what I've already seen is the best indicator of what remains to be seen AND the stakes are pretty high. If they flood the market (at least in the short-term) with turbines that have similar quality, QC issues and product support to their current offerings, then it's more than just those customers who stand to lose. When clubs ban turbines because of fires or accidents, they don't typically ban that one pilot. When any type of problem arises out of turbine use, the ill effects usually ripple out beyond the individual user.

Eddie P

My Feedback: (4)

Sean don't waste your time debating with guys who want to rush in to something like this. Your points are valid from your perspective. The main resistance I see is some don't actually want to discuss a valid concern from a more global perspective.

The only real sphere of influence we have here in our own borders is the AMA turbine crowd and the JPO network - we do actually have the right to enforce best standards and we do police our own and we should all keep doing things like we have in order to bring the new guys on properly and safely for turbine ops. When a guy comes looking for guidance and a waiver with one of these engines, at least we have the means to double check everything and help the guy make a successful transition regardless of any concerns. For example, if the engine turns out to be a well running power plant and the candidate has done their homework and they are a safe and competent operator... I'd personally be happy to submit a waiver application check on their behalf. But if they arrive to the party with a bolt bucket of an engine that is not reliable or trustworthy and not set up properly then it's game over until changes and upgrades are made for safety. My sincere hope is that all of us continue to actively, in a supportive and friendly way police our own so we continue to have a great future in turbine jets.

The best customers for stuff like this early on (before it becomes a known quantity) are very experienced guys looking to tinker and play. I sure hope turbine noobs don't go this route just yet. The hair just starts to stick up on the back of my neck when I think about untested engines, hot and windy summer days and new jet guys. You are right Sean, we can't afford any dumb mistakes ever, we just don't have the spare political capacity to make silly mistakes without repercussions here in the USA with turbine jets. The suggestion for caution and conservative movement on stuff like this is correct. My earlier and sincere take on personal experience over the years with both Hobby King and Turbine jet flying still stands for now. I still say as of this moment I would never recommend turbine engines and Hobby King to be used in the same sentence by a friend of mine, or even an enemy! Results vary, mileage may vary, proceed with caution until a track record can be established that distinguishes this turbine engine from some of the motors and speed controllers I've had the displeasure of purchasing from HK!

Shaun Evans

Eddie,

You're right. Self-policing is the key over here, and several of your other points are valid, too. There's a guy who flies here in San Diego. He tends not to belong to any one club for more than a year because he has issues with rule-breaking and such. He's the type of guy who's got plenty of money, but will ALWAYS go for the 'bargain'... regardless of what you tell him. I tried to help him with a jet, and he insisted on using JR 821's all around in spite of the fact that I told him that those servos had a very high failure rate in my own personal experience. Sure enough, two of them fail on the bench, so he promptly ran out and bought two more. He bought a used jet with an engine that has been long discontinued because he just couldn't pass up the price. Of course, the engine seized and burned up before the plane left the ground. Finally, he shows up to my jet-together with yet another 'bargain' plane with a bargain engine on it. Even though I wasn't the official safety officer, I decided to personally inspect his plane because of my past experience with him. I found some rudder glitching and a steering servo that was intermittently freezing. I grounded him due to the rudder glitching and gave him a list of things he should address before he showed back up at my field. What's he do? Promptly leaves and goes somewhere else to fly his jet. I'll give you three guesses as to how that went.

Of course, not everyone has this mentality. The thing is that for this guy (and lots of guys like him), it's the bottom line price that's the hook and they don't have the experience or information to stay away from the junk. In this case, this guy had plenty of people around him advising him on what to do and what not to do, but it was that price that got him. "I'm sure it'll be fine" was the attitude.

powerjets

My Feedback: (1)

Does AMA still have "turbine - approval " as was done in the past ?.
If so, that would take care of this either way, no ?

mr_matt

My Feedback: (10)

I liked this movie better when it was called "Attack of the JetJoe"