Horizon Hobby sold!
12-13-2013, 07:10 AM
#77
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Well. I know what I see. I see Horizon's product line of ARFs quickly shrinking. 30cc P-47 - gone. 1/4 scale cub - gone. Pulse XT120 - gone (yet ironically, still advertised on their web site). 1/4 scale pt-19 (Seagull) - gone. 1/4 scale Taylorcraft - gone. Plenty more examples that just don't come to mind at the moment. On top of that, I never seen so many products out of stock. I was curious since these types of issue are atypical of Horizon, but things are starting to make sense. They don't seem to be as healthy as they have been. I hope things don't get worse.
12-13-2013, 07:37 AM
#78
12-13-2013, 07:52 AM
#79
It's just business. Nothing personnel. 
This kind of thing has been going on forever in the business world. Look at Tower, started by one one man and grown into a succesful company and now employee owned. We will just have to see what shakes out of the tree in a while. I'm just glad I didn't buy a Saturn, Pontiac, or Oldsmobile a couple of years ago.
This kind of thing has been going on forever in the business world. Look at Tower, started by one one man and grown into a succesful company and now employee owned. We will just have to see what shakes out of the tree in a while. I'm just glad I didn't buy a Saturn, Pontiac, or Oldsmobile a couple of years ago.
12-13-2013, 09:31 AM
#80
Well. I know what I see. I see Horizon's product line of ARFs quickly shrinking. 30cc P-47 - gone. 1/4 scale cub - gone. Pulse XT120 - gone (yet ironically, still advertised on their web site). 1/4 scale pt-19 (Seagull) - gone. 1/4 scale Taylorcraft - gone. Plenty more examples that just don't come to mind at the moment. On top of that, I never seen so many products out of stock. I was curious since these types of issue are atypical of Horizon, but things are starting to make sense. They don't seem to be as healthy as they have been. I hope things don't get worse.
As for being out of everything, an equally valid explanation could be that they simply sold a ton of stuff for the Holidays and haven't had a chance to restock yet. As far as I'm concerned, anything beyond them providing me with great service is not my concern. Hopefully they will continue to provide great service. I'm willing to wait and see
12-13-2013, 09:53 AM
#81
I'm not really certain that their product line isn't larger than ever but I haven't exactly taken inventory. All I know is that it seems to me that every product that goes "end of life", seems to be replaced with at least 1, or more new products. They've had a long history of moving out product that I liked and I never understood why. I simply assumed they knew their business and not everyone thought as highly of some of these product as I did. Also, product inventory is a huge expense so I guess they have say, out with the old to make room for the new.
As for being out of everything, an equally valid explanation could be that they simply sold a ton of stuff for the Holidays and haven't had a chance to restock yet. As far as I'm concerned, anything beyond them providing me with great service is not my concern. Hopefully they will continue to provide great service. I'm willing to wait and see
As for being out of everything, an equally valid explanation could be that they simply sold a ton of stuff for the Holidays and haven't had a chance to restock yet. As far as I'm concerned, anything beyond them providing me with great service is not my concern. Hopefully they will continue to provide great service. I'm willing to wait and see
I am waiting sice January on a replacement fuse for a Hobby-Lobby Telemaster.
It is the nature of the beast... And you are right, out with the old, in with the new is the way to go...
Gerry
12-13-2013, 05:48 PM
#83
12-13-2013, 06:29 PM
#84
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Things wont change.shudder the the thought! Didnt some famous person say" if you like your current insurance plan ....you can continue to keep it".....so dont trust them.as the guy just said they will bleed it and sell it off but lets hope not.meanwhile I guess I will hold off buying that p47d 60 arf. Oh well.
12-13-2013, 08:42 PM
#85
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I think some grown up people are quite naive if they fail to realize that what drives ALL business IS money. Unless you have a non-for profit organization. Change of ownership sometime fail, but in most cases it does grow business, or brings business back to life. Having the ex-CEO of the company investing in it as a investor group leader, seems to be a good thing in my opinion. He knows what he is getting into, and he did lead a company that was successful, he would not invest in something if he would think it will fail. There is a place in the market for Horizon, and they have a nice share of this market. They will be around, no doubt.
Gerry
Gerry
Wow, some of the comments are not even related to the subject!
They company changed hands, but it happens that heading one of the two (2) investor's groups you have the prior CEO of Horizon. While some companies were purchased for their assets, and then, run into the ground (Mitt Romney knew how to do that!), I do not think this is the case here. Only time will tell, but I do not think he would invest in an operation that is destined to be destroyed... This is not a manufacturing operation after all...
They company changed hands, but it happens that heading one of the two (2) investor's groups you have the prior CEO of Horizon. While some companies were purchased for their assets, and then, run into the ground (Mitt Romney knew how to do that!), I do not think this is the case here. Only time will tell, but I do not think he would invest in an operation that is destined to be destroyed... This is not a manufacturing operation after all...
Personally I know just enough about the 'internals' of the hobby industry to be worried that HH declined enough to be a target for a buy out. That suggests a substantial number of models, ARFs, or kits that did not sell fast enough to recover the investment and that hurts badly. All the folks talking about how wonderful HH is may or may not be right, but when the company cannot make enough TIMELY sales to support the development of a product or construction of the arf or cutting the kit there is a sales/time problem and that causes companies to be sold or close. Anyone heard from Pica lately?
Look at it this way. It costs upwards of $50,000 to kit a scale plane. That will make say 1,000 kits. You think there is great profit there because they are selling the kit for $200 which to you means $150 in profits. Well that simply is not true. It costs between $15 and $20 to print the plans/instruction manual/box cover and another $5 for the box. Now we are down to $125. Then they have to pay for putting the kit together, probably $10 to make sure you got ALL the ribs and incoming shipping another $10. Now we are down to $105. They STILL have to pay Joe to stock it and Joe gets $36/hour (that is the loaded number) to put it on the shelf which they had to buy and cover (housing costs more than an average $2 per square foot per MONTH and the kits need housing). So Joe is fast and it only takes 1 hour to get all the kits carefully stored in the correct location so they can be found. Now we are down to $69 and there are still more costs. The overhead is still out there wanting its share of the funding. Probably around $5 per month per kit to cover the aisles and shelves in the warehouse, office for the warehouse workers, forklifts and the like. You might have noticed that these were MONTHY RECURRING COSTS. In addition to those recurring costs, the $50,000 was borrowed and there is interest charged on that until the note is paid off. Actually THAT is where the rub is. If the kits (or ARF's for that matter) don't sell fast enough someone or something has to generate that monthly note payment.
It is considerations like that that worry me when I hear that HH has been sold because it takes a lot of traffic to support that size and style of operation and the sale clearly states there is not that much activity in the hobby for that company.
OBTW, in ONE thing you were right. It is ALWAYS all about the money. It always has been and always will be, whether this hobby or anything else folks invest in. These are people who are trying diligently not to make small fortunes in the hobby industry the classical way. You know, starting with large fortunes...
12-14-2013, 06:31 AM
#86
I don't understand how you can ALWAYS make everything in the hobby about politics and then whine when folks talk about anything not on subject. Please explain how the above squares with your politically driven previous remarks shown below.
So which lie is it? Did you happen to discover that the HH CEO is a good democrat so it must be OK?
Personally I know just enough about the 'internals' of the hobby industry to be worried that HH declined enough to be a target for a buy out. That suggests a substantial number of models, ARFs, or kits that did not sell fast enough to recover the investment and that hurts badly. All the folks talking about how wonderful HH is may or may not be right, but when the company cannot make enough TIMELY sales to support the development of a product or construction of the arf or cutting the kit there is a sales/time problem and that causes companies to be sold or close. Anyone heard from Pica lately?
Look at it this way. It costs upwards of $50,000 to kit a scale plane. That will make say 1,000 kits. You think there is great profit there because they are selling the kit for $200 which to you means $150 in profits. Well that simply is not true. It costs between $15 and $20 to print the plans/instruction manual/box cover and another $5 for the box. Now we are down to $125. Then they have to pay for putting the kit together, probably $10 to make sure you got ALL the ribs and incoming shipping another $10. Now we are down to $105. They STILL have to pay Joe to stock it and Joe gets $36/hour (that is the loaded number) to put it on the shelf which they had to buy and cover (housing costs more than an average $2 per square foot per MONTH and the kits need housing). So Joe is fast and it only takes 1 hour to get all the kits carefully stored in the correct location so they can be found. Now we are down to $69 and there are still more costs. The overhead is still out there wanting its share of the funding. Probably around $5 per month per kit to cover the aisles and shelves in the warehouse, office for the warehouse workers, forklifts and the like. You might have noticed that these were MONTHY RECURRING COSTS. In addition to those recurring costs, the $50,000 was borrowed and there is interest charged on that until the note is paid off. Actually THAT is where the rub is. If the kits (or ARF's for that matter) don't sell fast enough someone or something has to generate that monthly note payment.
It is considerations like that that worry me when I hear that HH has been sold because it takes a lot of traffic to support that size and style of operation and the sale clearly states there is not that much activity in the hobby for that company.
OBTW, in ONE thing you were right. It is ALWAYS all about the money. It always has been and always will be, whether this hobby or anything else folks invest in. These are people who are trying diligently not to make small fortunes in the hobby industry the classical way. You know, starting with large fortunes...
So which lie is it? Did you happen to discover that the HH CEO is a good democrat so it must be OK?
Personally I know just enough about the 'internals' of the hobby industry to be worried that HH declined enough to be a target for a buy out. That suggests a substantial number of models, ARFs, or kits that did not sell fast enough to recover the investment and that hurts badly. All the folks talking about how wonderful HH is may or may not be right, but when the company cannot make enough TIMELY sales to support the development of a product or construction of the arf or cutting the kit there is a sales/time problem and that causes companies to be sold or close. Anyone heard from Pica lately?
Look at it this way. It costs upwards of $50,000 to kit a scale plane. That will make say 1,000 kits. You think there is great profit there because they are selling the kit for $200 which to you means $150 in profits. Well that simply is not true. It costs between $15 and $20 to print the plans/instruction manual/box cover and another $5 for the box. Now we are down to $125. Then they have to pay for putting the kit together, probably $10 to make sure you got ALL the ribs and incoming shipping another $10. Now we are down to $105. They STILL have to pay Joe to stock it and Joe gets $36/hour (that is the loaded number) to put it on the shelf which they had to buy and cover (housing costs more than an average $2 per square foot per MONTH and the kits need housing). So Joe is fast and it only takes 1 hour to get all the kits carefully stored in the correct location so they can be found. Now we are down to $69 and there are still more costs. The overhead is still out there wanting its share of the funding. Probably around $5 per month per kit to cover the aisles and shelves in the warehouse, office for the warehouse workers, forklifts and the like. You might have noticed that these were MONTHY RECURRING COSTS. In addition to those recurring costs, the $50,000 was borrowed and there is interest charged on that until the note is paid off. Actually THAT is where the rub is. If the kits (or ARF's for that matter) don't sell fast enough someone or something has to generate that monthly note payment.
It is considerations like that that worry me when I hear that HH has been sold because it takes a lot of traffic to support that size and style of operation and the sale clearly states there is not that much activity in the hobby for that company.
OBTW, in ONE thing you were right. It is ALWAYS all about the money. It always has been and always will be, whether this hobby or anything else folks invest in. These are people who are trying diligently not to make small fortunes in the hobby industry the classical way. You know, starting with large fortunes...
I used Mitt as an example because he is a celebrity, and everybody knows about his dealings. He is recognizable, he is a celebrity. That's all. If I need an example of people that stole money from us, middle class, trough medical insurance, I could use may examples from all parties:-) If I would want an example of someone that made fortunes through bankruptcy proceedings that broke the back of many small companies I would use “the Donald” (Trump, not the cartoon)…
You mentioned the kits. That is something that puzzles me. Did we notice a drop of the costs of the kits when the China Boom occurred? Why not? Makes me wonder if using labor that costs $1.00 the hour (average industrialized Chinese city) the prices would not come down. I think most kits are manufactured here (well not sure about Great Planes). I think what is happening is that a) there is not enough market, and b) there is not enough money in it to attract companies to do this.
You say: “…the sale clearly states there is not that much activity in the hobby for that company.” And I have no idea where you got that or why you say that. Many companies that are doing great are sold for a myriad of reasons (many of them we will never find out). But it does NOT mean the company is not doing good. Of course sometimes they are sold because they need more money, or a new vision, but it is not fair to say that this is always the case.
I like Horizon, and well, while it is true that I never buy much from them except Hangar 9 products, I was always a happy customer, and maybe there is a big Beaver in my feature, as soon as I finish the 30% Citabria... But they have all kind of product lines, even radios for people that like having 18 receivers in one model
I like them, and in my mind they are a big company, and I do not see them going anywhere because they have a big share of the market. I wish them well.Gerry
BTY: IN my line of business they say you can retire with a small fortune, provided you had a big one when you started.
12-14-2013, 07:32 AM
#88
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I'm a JR person and over time I've found that the Horizon staff have been totally responsive to any perceived difficulties with that radio system.
In recent months there has been a subtle change in the customer/staff relationship in that frequently there is little or no response relative to a service
question or the status of an order.
No acknowledgement relative to a submitted order.
No response to questions related to that order .
Perhaps the ongoing 'purchase' answers all of my personal questions concerning the sudden changes noted. I would now assume that there has been
a reduction in staff and thus no 'free' time to address consumer questions as had been their habit over the years.
In any event it would be my hope that Horizon Hobbies survives and flourishes but I believe reality suggests that the company will ultimately be absorbed
and quietly be eliminated from the hobby market.
It has already been rumored that JR and Spektrum have taken separate paths .... the industry is changing. So it goes .
In recent months there has been a subtle change in the customer/staff relationship in that frequently there is little or no response relative to a service
question or the status of an order.
No acknowledgement relative to a submitted order.
No response to questions related to that order .
Perhaps the ongoing 'purchase' answers all of my personal questions concerning the sudden changes noted. I would now assume that there has been
a reduction in staff and thus no 'free' time to address consumer questions as had been their habit over the years.
In any event it would be my hope that Horizon Hobbies survives and flourishes but I believe reality suggests that the company will ultimately be absorbed
and quietly be eliminated from the hobby market.
It has already been rumored that JR and Spektrum have taken separate paths .... the industry is changing. So it goes .
12-14-2013, 09:47 AM
#89
I'm a JR person and over time I've found that the Horizon staff have been totally responsive to any perceived difficulties with that radio system.
In recent months there has been a subtle change in the customer/staff relationship in that frequently there is little or no response relative to a service
question or the status of an order.
No acknowledgement relative to a submitted order.
No response to questions related to that order .
Perhaps the ongoing 'purchase' answers all of my personal questions concerning the sudden changes noted. I would now assume that there has been
a reduction in staff and thus no 'free' time to address consumer questions as had been their habit over the years.
In any event it would be my hope that Horizon Hobbies survives and flourishes but I believe reality suggests that the company will ultimately be absorbed
and quietly be eliminated from the hobby market.
It has already been rumored that JR and Spektrum have taken separate paths .... the industry is changing. So it goes .
In recent months there has been a subtle change in the customer/staff relationship in that frequently there is little or no response relative to a service
question or the status of an order.
No acknowledgement relative to a submitted order.
No response to questions related to that order .
Perhaps the ongoing 'purchase' answers all of my personal questions concerning the sudden changes noted. I would now assume that there has been
a reduction in staff and thus no 'free' time to address consumer questions as had been their habit over the years.
In any event it would be my hope that Horizon Hobbies survives and flourishes but I believe reality suggests that the company will ultimately be absorbed
and quietly be eliminated from the hobby market.
It has already been rumored that JR and Spektrum have taken separate paths .... the industry is changing. So it goes .
Anyway, when JR Americas was annouced and Horizon passed on the retail end of JR to this other company, Horizon was supposed to continue doing the service work for JR for several years. With the sale of HH, if I understood the press releases from JR Americas, they will be taking over the service functions from Horizon on the 1st of February next year.
Now I'm not sure how that's going to work with the older JR DSM2 and DSMX radios needing service as that stuff is all proprietary; who's 'gonna fix my DSMX upgraded 12X if it needs work?
I have already started the move to another radio system but had planned on leaving the DSM2/DSMX models I have on that 12X radio until they get new homes or the big trash can in the sky while all the new models will get the different radio system (and it's NOT the new JR stuff), I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens.....
12-14-2013, 12:40 PM
#91
It would seem the ARF culture is a difficult one to deal with. Certainly complicated from a margin standpoint, then stocking replacement parts etc. It is no wonder these ARF aircraft do not stay in market very long. It seems it was much easier when dealers just sold kits. they did not have to worry about all of this inventory to deal with. I envision a time when the ARF declines to the point that kits will make a resurgence. The thin margins will disappear as labor costs rise. Cheap labor is the thing that made ARF's viable in the first place.
I do not buy anyhting from Horizon anyway, unless it went to my LHS, as hardware etc. I mainly just build from plans and kit cutters now. Interesting to watch this stuff though.
I do not buy anyhting from Horizon anyway, unless it went to my LHS, as hardware etc. I mainly just build from plans and kit cutters now. Interesting to watch this stuff though.
12-14-2013, 12:48 PM
#92
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For me the bigger concern is what is happening to the rest of the big hobby retailers.sadly there arent many lhs around given the internet these days.horizon announcement is a bit scarcy.locally edwinn watts golf whose roots are in florida filed chapter 11.hurricanes and lousy weather beat them up and sales went too low to suvive.with horizon they have been reinvented numerous times .will this be any different ? Sadly history shows it may very well bechanged and whether or not for the better remains to be seen.i disagree that costs for the hobby are at an all time low.everybody has elevated hk and personally I hate the company.lately I have gone back to flying rc like I used to to in the 80 and 90's.the onslaught of quad copters is discerning and what that and drones will do to our fantastic hobby.
The hobby is great and new stuff coming out every month.new ventures will continue to come online.give hh sometime and lets see what develops.i have delt with them as recently as today and find no issues but your right investment groups are not rc user friendly lets hope for the best.
The hobby is great and new stuff coming out every month.new ventures will continue to come online.give hh sometime and lets see what develops.i have delt with them as recently as today and find no issues but your right investment groups are not rc user friendly lets hope for the best.
12-14-2013, 12:57 PM
#93
As long as I can still get engines, radios, and hardware, the hobby is fine with me. Plans and balsawood will most likely always be around. This may be something that more will have to embrace again.
This circumstance may also prove to see the exit of some undesireable club members as well. Back to the way it use to be when a little more effort had to be put forth to participate.
I agree, HK is terrible. Not sure that will be sustainable either. That company reminds me of the horrible mainstream music coming out of the U.S. pop culture. So shallow and short sighted. It all just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
This circumstance may also prove to see the exit of some undesireable club members as well. Back to the way it use to be when a little more effort had to be put forth to participate.
I agree, HK is terrible. Not sure that will be sustainable either. That company reminds me of the horrible mainstream music coming out of the U.S. pop culture. So shallow and short sighted. It all just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
12-14-2013, 03:08 PM
#94
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Tanks vertical well said.add to that the demand for arfs.admittedly I have owned several and I reinforced everyone.plus how many foam airplanes do you see at the club.i get it but I still dont like them.right now I am finishing a sig liberty sport that was staryed by a club member.i am having fun buiding it.you have a point with arfs maybe the costs will allow balsa kits to come back.i have built many many kits and likely will do a few more that I never got to.i find myself being drawn to scale building.not sure I am any good but I love cutting shaping and sanding.always great thearpy for me personally.again I get the arfs I have done it but I missed balsa .and just ca my fingers together dont ya just love it lol.
12-14-2013, 03:41 PM
#95
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You are barking up the wrong tree if you want to buy a new JR radio, the retail end of things has been taken over buy I THINK.... Advantage Hobby???? The 'ole memory doesn't work like it used to... lol
Anyway, when JR Americas was annouced and Horizon passed on the retail end of JR to this other company, Horizon was supposed to continue doing the service work for JR for several years. With the sale of HH, if I understood the press releases from JR Americas, they will be taking over the service functions from Horizon on the 1st of February next year.
Now I'm not sure how that's going to work with the older JR DSM2 and DSMX radios needing service as that stuff is all proprietary; who's 'gonna fix my DSMX upgraded 12X if it needs work?
I have already started the move to another radio system but had planned on leaving the DSM2/DSMX models I have on that 12X radio until they get new homes or the big trash can in the sky while all the new models will get the different radio system (and it's NOT the new JR stuff), I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens.....
Anyway, when JR Americas was annouced and Horizon passed on the retail end of JR to this other company, Horizon was supposed to continue doing the service work for JR for several years. With the sale of HH, if I understood the press releases from JR Americas, they will be taking over the service functions from Horizon on the 1st of February next year.
Now I'm not sure how that's going to work with the older JR DSM2 and DSMX radios needing service as that stuff is all proprietary; who's 'gonna fix my DSMX upgraded 12X if it needs work?
I have already started the move to another radio system but had planned on leaving the DSM2/DSMX models I have on that 12X radio until they get new homes or the big trash can in the sky while all the new models will get the different radio system (and it's NOT the new JR stuff), I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens.....
I suppose my intent was to convey the feeling of an obvious but subtle change in customer handling as opposed to 'what used to be' from Horizon .
Frankly , the JR gear has operated fine throughout but , like you , I'm suddenly on the fence as regards some other brand in the near future.
Horizon techs always jumped in and did the job , often without charge and that was refreshing treatment for an old guy that has been flying R/C
since the gas tube days .
Bottom line : I do wish Horizon all the luck in the world but I believe you'll ultimately see the company absorbed ( read ' DISAPPEAR' ).
How'd you know I was being victimized by an " old memory" ???? LOL
12-14-2013, 06:34 PM
#98
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Pica and Horizon are two different animals altogether. Pica served to a sliver of the market, and there is no way they could survive. Even Sig jumped on the money-making ARF bandwagon to survive. Kit makers will always be around, but it is not the moneymaker for these companies like Horizon or Tower.
I used Mitt as an example because he is a celebrity, and everybody knows about his dealings. He is recognizable, he is a celebrity. That's all. If I need an example of people that stole money from us, middle class, trough medical insurance, I could use may examples from all parties:-) If I would want an example of someone that made fortunes through bankruptcy proceedings that broke the back of many small companies I would use “the Donald” (Trump, not the cartoon)…
You mentioned the kits. That is something that puzzles me. Did we notice a drop of the costs of the kits when the China Boom occurred? Why not? Makes me wonder if using labor that costs $1.00 the hour (average industrialized Chinese city) the prices would not come down. I think most kits are manufactured here (well not sure about Great Planes). I think what is happening is that a) there is not enough market, and b) there is not enough money in it to attract companies to do this.
You say: “…the sale clearly states there is not that much activity in the hobby for that company.” And I have no idea where you got that or why you say that. Many companies that are doing great are sold for a myriad of reasons (many of them we will never find out). But it does NOT mean the company is not doing good. Of course sometimes they are sold because they need more money, or a new vision, but it is not fair to say that this is always the case.
I like Horizon, and well, while it is true that I never buy much from them except Hangar 9 products, I was always a happy customer, and maybe there is a big Beaver in my feature, as soon as I finish the 30% Citabria... But they have all kind of product lines, even radios for people that like having 18 receivers in one model I like them, and in my mind they are a big company, and I do not see them going anywhere because they have a big share of the market. I wish them well.
Gerry
BTY: IN my line of business they say you can retire with a small fortune, provided you had a big one when you started.
I used Mitt as an example because he is a celebrity, and everybody knows about his dealings. He is recognizable, he is a celebrity. That's all. If I need an example of people that stole money from us, middle class, trough medical insurance, I could use may examples from all parties:-) If I would want an example of someone that made fortunes through bankruptcy proceedings that broke the back of many small companies I would use “the Donald” (Trump, not the cartoon)…
You mentioned the kits. That is something that puzzles me. Did we notice a drop of the costs of the kits when the China Boom occurred? Why not? Makes me wonder if using labor that costs $1.00 the hour (average industrialized Chinese city) the prices would not come down. I think most kits are manufactured here (well not sure about Great Planes). I think what is happening is that a) there is not enough market, and b) there is not enough money in it to attract companies to do this.
You say: “…the sale clearly states there is not that much activity in the hobby for that company.” And I have no idea where you got that or why you say that. Many companies that are doing great are sold for a myriad of reasons (many of them we will never find out). But it does NOT mean the company is not doing good. Of course sometimes they are sold because they need more money, or a new vision, but it is not fair to say that this is always the case.
I like Horizon, and well, while it is true that I never buy much from them except Hangar 9 products, I was always a happy customer, and maybe there is a big Beaver in my feature, as soon as I finish the 30% Citabria... But they have all kind of product lines, even radios for people that like having 18 receivers in one model
I like them, and in my mind they are a big company, and I do not see them going anywhere because they have a big share of the market. I wish them well.Gerry
BTY: IN my line of business they say you can retire with a small fortune, provided you had a big one when you started.
As for your use of people in any of your examples, I only take exception to that since you seem to have an unreasonable unfathomable and disgusting opinion of folks who have a different perspective of things than you. Adequate proof of that can be seen in in all your anti-R remarks. You should look deeper than the bleeding media tells you to and educate yourself about who sets up the stealing from the American public. Take a look at the Tax Reformation Act of 1986 and then look at the S&L bail out and see if you can find the relationship. Most are too committed to hatred to be dispassionate enough to really understand the damage of some of that laws changes in the code did to the S&L's and investors. Another eye-opener would be the latest crash that was caused by lenders loaning to folks congress critters felt needed to own a home. I think there is enough stink there to spread around.
I should point out that YOU are complaining about a health insurance cost that is lower than mine and complaining about all the freeloaders and it is clear that you and your friends told someone we need more of that kind sucking on the public teat. So I don't really understand your complaint...it is almost as bogus as your excuses.
I guess the entire point of all this is that it had little to nothing to do with the subject, so why did you shovel that horse manure?
12-15-2013, 06:08 AM
#99
Read the comments at the end.
http://www.news-gazette.com/news/bus...investors.html
http://www.news-gazette.com/news/bus...investors.html
"Over the years, we pursued our mission 'to help people have fun with hobbies' by providing our consumers innovative products backed by the highest levels of service," Stephens said in a written release. "My brother Larry and I are pleased that our new investors agree with our approach, and we believe this transaction presents a tremendous opportunity for our employees."
To me, it's all PR lies told to the current owners. I'm sure we have all seen it before. While the people who took over Horizon have conveyed to keeping "Horizon's current concept" to the current owners, there is lots of room for them to completely change Horizon Hobbies under that guize. Higher prices, fewer employees, a complete shift in products & their origins, different policies, selling off sections of Horizon that were not very profitable, terminating product lines that were not highly profitable, forcing salesmen to reach higher sales to achieve bonuses, less company benifits, less vacation, less sick leave, forcing hobby shops to make bigger purchases as well as buy products they don't want or could never sell in their area, etc.
And in their eyes/viewpoint, they will claim they have improved the happiness & fun of the hobby while achieving higher service levels and innovative products.
Last edited by Airplanes400; 12-15-2013 at 06:21 AM. Reason: typo
12-15-2013, 06:40 AM
#100
Look at it this way. It costs upwards of $50,000 to kit a scale plane. That will make say 1,000 kits. You think there is great profit there because they are selling the kit for $200 which to you means $150 in profits. Well that simply is not true. It costs between $15 and $20 to print the plans/instruction manual/box cover and another $5 for the box. Now we are down to $125. Then they have to pay for putting the kit together, probably $10 to make sure you got ALL the ribs and incoming shipping another $10. Now we are down to $105. They STILL have to pay Joe to stock it and Joe gets $36/hour (that is the loaded number) to put it on the shelf which they had to buy and cover (housing costs more than an average $2 per square foot per MONTH and the kits need housing). So Joe is fast and it only takes 1 hour to get all the kits carefully stored in the correct location so they can be found. Now we are down to $69 and there are still more costs. The overhead is still out there wanting its share of the funding. Probably around $5 per month per kit to cover the aisles and shelves in the warehouse, office for the warehouse workers, forklifts and the like. You might have noticed that these were MONTHY RECURRING COSTS. In addition to those recurring costs, the $50,000 was borrowed and there is interest charged on that until the note is paid off. Actually THAT is where the rub is. If the kits (or ARF's for that matter) don't sell fast enough someone or something has to generate that monthly note payment.
All in all, the final manufacturer's LANDED AT THE WAREHOUSE product cost should be about 25% of market price. While not great, it is certainly profitable. Many manufacturers enjoy an 800 to 1000+% markup. That's not the case in the hobby business.
Last edited by Airplanes400; 12-15-2013 at 06:47 AM. Reason: typo