I called the AMA to find out about opening up the Pulse Jet rules to allow modern currently produced Pulse Jets.
I mentioned that there is no longer a pulse jet being manufactured that meets the rules.
I was told that there is nothing in the works to change the rules and this was the first they have heard about it.
I was told to write up a new rules proposal to submit and they will take it through the proper channels.

SOOOoooooo.........

I am asking for input from some of you that seem to know a lot more about Pulse Jets than I do.

I have come up with a rough draft of a new rules proposal to replace AMA document #510-Q and a new self declaration form to replace AMA document #510-R.

All input is welcome at this point.

Jeff,
Good start to revising the AMA Pulse Jet Rules for RC Aircraft. I started this myself several months ago but life got in the way.
A suggested change would be to reduce the 50 flight prerequisite with a high performance model to 100 MPH; the same as for fixed wing turbine models. Also include a statement that the HP model be flown at this speed and just not capable of this speed. As an example a Diamond Dust delta can easily achieve 150-175 MPH with a racing 40 size glow motor but can be flown with a 19-size motor at a very leisurely speed, far less than 100 MPH. The word capable is the hooker here. A statement that the model must be flown at 100 MPH or greater would satisfy this requirement.
You should also stipulate that one (1) of the availble fire extinquishers be water-based to handle any brush or grass fires resulting from a crash or off-field landing.
Finally, some wording on incorporating heat shielding (ceramic blanket, etc) to minimize the effect of engine heat upon the airframe and RC system.
I look forward to your, and anyone else's comments, on this.
BTW, I submitted my Pulse Jet Declaration to AMA HQ back in Feb 2014 and have not heard back from them on this. What happended is anyone's guess.

Rgds,
Art ARRO

Thanks Art

The original rule called for a HP aircraft "designed" to fly 150. That would fall into your scenario of putting a .19 on a Diamond Dust. My intent of specifying a plane "capable" of 150 would not allow that Diamond Dust with a .19 because it is not capable of 150. I have changed it to "flown at"

I agree that 100 just like the turbine rules would be a more realistic number.

I agree with the water based fire extinguisher.

There are some aircraft that will not require heat shielding others that will need a lot of shielding. I don't want a rule that will require unnecessary additional weight.

BTW, I sent my Pulse jet Declaration in over a year ago and have heard nothing. I asked the AMA about that and they said there is nothing in place. I asked "As a CD if a pulse jet shows up at my fun fly how do I know if the pilot has complied with the declaration requirement." They said you can always call to check. I pointed out that the AMA is not open to check it out on a weekend, when most fun flies happen. They agreed and are looking into adding it to the AMA card just like the turbine waiver now is. This would be a great help not only for CDs and club officers, but even for the applicant to know that the AMA received it.

I have loaded the amended versions to my first post.

Jeff,
The heat shielding, in the form of a ceramic blanket/reflective foil, doesn't weigh very much and will insulate servos and leads from the tailpipe heat. I'ver witnessed several turbine powered jets crash due to failed servos and burnt leads and a lack of any shielding. Maybe this can be phrased in form of a recommendation rather than a rule.
I was expecting some form of acknowledgement upon submitting my pulse jet declaration to AMA early this year.
Rgds,
Art ARRO

I also expected to get something back from my Pulse Jet Declaration. But the AMA has noting at all in place to even acknowledge the receipt of a declaration. I am trying to get them to add it to the AMA card like they did for the turbine waiver.

Last week I sent a copy of my Pulse jet rules proposal to the JPO and today I sent it to the AMA.

I guess now starts the waiting game to see what if anything happens.

Jeff,
Wise move on submitting your proposed pulse jet rules to JPO as they will, most likely, be asked for comment on them. On the AMA side,the proposal must flow through several committees; safety, insurance,tech etc before submission to the EC for ratification. This all takes time unless an emergency situation.
The only hiccup I see is the 25 lb max thrust limitation as there currently isn't a commercially available pulse jet of meeting this requirement. The current 1.25 sq inch tailpipe area is derived from the US-made Dynajet and foreign clones. The AMA has a 50 year+ history with these pulse jet engines for controline models and is probably why the tailpipe area is currently specified for RC applications. Thanks for your submission and keep us in touch on all this.
Rgds,
Art ARRO

There is nothing magic in the 25 lb number. I just picked a number that is a little more than the common European pulse jets that are currently available and a lot less than the turbine rules. Just like in the turbine rules, there is no dimensional limit, it is a manufacturers thrust rating limit, this way you are less likely to have a rule made obsolete by advances in technology. There is no currently available DynaJet red head clone that I have been able to find anywhere in the world. The last person making them passed away a few years ago. The HK does not count since most of them blow up in around 5 runs and there are no repair parts available. The HK also is even less thrust that the old red head. 3 lbs of thrust does not push much of an airframe.

Jeff,
Any proposed thrust number for RC pulse jet rules should be backed by some experience to provide a risk management assessment of its value. Insurance liability is a driver in all this and the AMA is currently "comfortable" with the 1.25 sq in tailpipe area of the Dynajet. That's not to say that AMA may accept some thrust value but I feel they would need some data to support this number; ie, X number of successful flights with little or no risk of mishap.
In the dawn of the turbine era AMA purchased a couple of European turbines, JPXs, and consigned them to experienced DF pilots for flight testing. This gave the AMA some confidence in permitting turbines for model use, to include controline, helicopter and fixed wing models. The tubine waiver concept evolved and early turbine pilots had to prove a proficiency with high performance models, attend a manufacturer's ground school specific to the turbine they intended to operate, take a written exam (essay-type questions) and have a flight test sign off. Also, there was a currency requirement where the turbine pilot would have a accomplish 20 flights within a 24 month period for waiver renewal. There were additional thrust-to-weight requirements and speed limiters (governors) were also considered. I don't see this being repeated for pulse jets but any rules proposals must "flow" thru the various AMA committees before ratification by the EC.
Rgds,
Art ARRO, Fixed-Wing Turbine Waiver # 2570

It is a difficult challenge for sure. I can not get any flight experience with modern pulse jets because they are not legal to use under the current rules. Now if the AMA would give me special written permission. I would gladly order a Virus and an ER90 for testing and evaluation.

Some progress. I got this email back.

Here is keeping my fingers crossed.

Nicely done!

Given no other backing evidence, it seems to me that turbine thrust limits would be applicable to pulsejets with the same justification - after all we're just talking reaction force. I think it would be harder to argue against a different value than for it.

My Virus test flight isn't far off.. what do you want to know? I'll bet it is fast, loud, and fun.

Well I just got my AMA card for 2015. I guess they did not like the idea of putting the Pulse Jet declaration onto the AMA card.

Jeff,
I also received my 2015 AMA card sans any info regarding my Pulse Jet Declaration send to AMA HQ about 10 months ago. As stated in my Post # 6, any pulse jet rules/regulations have to pass through several AMA committees before ratification by the Exec. Council. I presume that these rules/regulations are still moving through the process. Unless an emergency situation, this can take some time.
Rgds,
Art

How about this on on BTE's website?
http://btemodels.com/doublewhammy.html

What about it? That model uses two pulsejets that fit within the AMA rules.

The bladder tanks may be another issue, might have a problem with this one: Flexible plastic bags will not be allowed as fuel tanks in RC pulse jet powered modelaircraft.

Jeff's original approach to the AMA resulted in a referral to the AMA Safety Committee. As the JPO representative on the committee, I volunteered to pursue updates to both of the AMA documents. A small working group was formed, including Jeff, several manufacturers, and a few experienced pulse jet pilots. There were several good exchanges, resulting in a list of revisions which have gone back to Ilona. She has done a first draft of the revised documents which raised a couple of additional questions. These have been resolved and she is working on the final draft. This draft will be sent back to the working committee in the next week or so. Assuming there are no additional revisions or suggestions, it will then go back to the Safety Committee and from there to the EC. I would expect this should all be handled by year end.

The revisions are fairly extensive and virtually all of the suggestions were incorporated. Amongst other things, the revisions allow for engines with larger combustion chambers and address the self certification issue. I am hesitant to post the revisions here before they are officially approved, but if you operate pulse jets and have an interest let me know at [email protected] and I'll add you to the review group.

The process has moved along steadily, albeit a bit slowly, as the AMA has its hands full right now with some fairly significant issues. They were very open to revisions and I don't forsee any significant problems in getting the updates through the various committees as the folks working on them did a great job of backing up the suggested changes with solid information and data.

Thanks, Keith Sievers

Keith,
Please send me a PM to be added to the review group. I tried sending you a direct e-mail but kept getting error messages from my mail server. Thanks.
Art ARRO

Will do. You might be having a temporary glitch ... I have gotten some other replies so I know the link is working.

Thanks, Keith.

Keith,
I have NOT received any PM from you on this Forum regarding the proposed/draft Pulse Jet Rules. I tried sending a message (several in fact) direct to your e-mail but my mail server failed to "authenicate" and send it. It seems that the problem is at my end, but in any case I'm unable to review this draft proposal via e-mail.
Rgds,
Art

There is nothing to review yet .... Ilona is still working on the draft. We spoke last week and I think it will show up at any time. As soon as I have it, I will share it with all interested parties.

Art, you might PM me with your current email and I'll send you a note. You can reply and we will see if that gets bounced back to you.

Thanks for your patience.

Keith.

Keith,
You can send to my e-mail@ [email protected]. Note that I'm able to receive e-mail but not send including a reply due to "authenication" issues. Thanks for the update; re: Ilona's draft review.
Rgds, Art

Keith,
Received your message and responded directly to Ilona via snail mail. If you wish a copy, kindly send me your best snail mail address. Note that you can send it to my e-mail, asI can receive, but not send any e-messages. I'm working to resolve this with my mail server and ISP but this seems as slow as the AMA rules proposal process.
Rgds,
Art

WOOOO HOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

I just got word that the AMA has approved a new set of Pulse Jet rules.

The new rules will be posed up on the AMA website in the next few days.
I will wait for that just in case there are any changes from the last draft that I saw and I will post the new rules up here also.

I think most of us will be happy with the results.

Now where is that credit card........

The AMA got the new Pulse Jet rules up on the AMA website.
http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/510-q.pdf

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My credit card is now smoking and I have a Super Scout and ER100 on the way from Germany. Hubert is still building the shipping box. I'm getting wound up now.......