Vettster

Well I got very lucky today... Turns out on another thread a gentleman called David just did the same thing Im doing here, but with a PST 600. Very similar engines and he was kind enough to post his settings. Programming the Xicoy ECU was a breeze! They may not work perfectly for my engine...but for sure it will get me close.

The engine is installed on the test bench and I will fire it up tomorrow for the first time. I have gone threw all the TEST functions and everything is working as I had hoped. Just need to start it now. Wish me luck

roger.alli

Juanjulian has some good advice. Try and start it manually first..

Yes David is a gentleman, and knows a thing or two about jets.

If all the following items are working, starter motor, fuel pump, glow plug, fuel solanioid, gas solanoid, glow plug,,,, and the bit in the middle spins around, you should be good to go..

Have fun..

Roger

Jgwright

Quote from PST 600 thread.

Thanks for the data David

Thanks for the input John.. I will pay careful attention to what you have mentioned. Im using a JR.. But I will re-learn it now that all the changes have been made, just to be on the safe side.

So..... if the engine does get hot and not build up RPMs... What would that be an indication of ? What parameter must be changed?

End of quote

Just thought I should reply on your thread to avoid it taking over David's.

If the ramp setting is too high i.e. too much fuel it can result in the engine failing to accelerate fast enough to burn it. If you have it too low then it just will not accelerate up to idle and the engine sits there stubbornly refusing to accelerate.

If your starter disengage rpm is too low then your starter will disengage before the engine has reached optimum acceleration required to get to idle and the engine will get too much fuel and get hot. If you have it too high then the starter will not disengage from the engine and it will get hot as extra fuel is pumped in but the rotor cannot accelerate.

I would try first with the starter of set at 31,000 and the re-engage at 30,000. The starter ramp I would start at start ramp 8.

If you make changes the rule is only make one change at a time so you can be sure what is affecting the start. You may well need a large Lipo as you are sure to play quite a bit to get the start consistent.

John

Vettster

Thanks John... once again youve been a big help. Many people have run turbines for many years.. but how many truly fully understand just what is happening? I will admit I didn't.. but now I'm learning a LOT thanks to guys like you and others that have helped along the way. Its all very much appreciated guys!!

I'll use your suggested settings

Cheers

Vettster

Sorry... But that scares me even more than the autostart as to me I feel there is just to much going on to pay attention to everything. plus I have never started one manually before. Thanks for the advice Juan and Roger.. but I feel I have to go feet first with the autostart on this one

Vettster

Well she certainly did try to start. But the Starter motor does not dis-engage so after 2 tries I had to abort as the starter motor was getting very warm! Also the motor does not spin it up steadily. it pulses on and off about every 2 seconds and just when the kero starts to feed and it wants to build rpm's, at that point the starter is engaged and will not release.?

I should also add.. that the propane ignites very quickly and the rpms build fast! I feel that the starter does not need to be engaged for even half the amount of time that its on.

Here's my settings...

Xicoy setting for JC P-60

START Menu

Max RPM 165,000
Min 50,00
Pump start auto-3
Start Ramp 8
plug v 2.4
gas 100%
Low voltage cut off 6.v
Start power at ignition 68
Ignition max rpm 6000
min.....................6000
preheat 2 seconds
gas off 45,000 (I dont use a gas solenoid. I feed direct from bottle)
starter at fuel ramp 96
RPM 100% starter power.. 22,000 rpm
RPM OFF Starter 27,000
reconnect 25,000

RUN Menu

Max temp 800c
Start min temp 100c
Stop Speed rpm 40,000
pump limit 812
accel delay 009
decel delay 010
stability delay 096

EDIT>>>>>>> These are the actual settings that I am now using and I edit this post as I change them.

Jgwright

I Would reduce the starter off rpm to off at 28,000 and reconnect at 27,000. Try that and see what happens.

John

Vettster

K... Im on it

siclick33

I assume that you have a valve on the gas bottle if you're not using a solenoid? Sorry if I stating the obvious but just open it enough so that the temperature initially just goes over 100 degrees (your start min temp). If you open it too far then the EGT will be unnecesarily high very quickly.

mauryr

Vettster,
this is an excerpt of the K60 manual. They are not the same engine of course, but it might help you fix your starter problem:

100% starter power 65.000Rpm
Rpm off starter 26.000Rpm
Rpm to reconnect 24.000Rpm

I suppose the reason why the 100% starter setting is way above the rpm off is because, at most, this engine only requires like 50% of the starter power to spool up properly.
How far into the sequence have you gotten with your test? If you want to post a video I m sure we can help you tune it!

ciao

Vettster

Thanks... Yes it takes VERY little propane to get this girl up to speed

WE GOT HER JOHN!!!

I tried 28k and 27k and the motor didnt pulse as much but the reconnect seemed a bit to close. I then lowered them to 27k and 25k and she only pulsed 2 or three times. MUCH BETTER! I started it up 3 times without issue. THANKS!!!

Im now going to correct the values in my earlier post and paste them to the first post so that anyone else taking on this endeavor will have easy reference.

I'll report back with an in flight video. Would have loved to have video of the start problems, but my camera kept crapping out.

Vettster

Thanks Mauryr... I think I can lower the rpm off to 26000 and the reconnect to 24000 as the kingtech. It can get just a little smoother I think with those settings. Will try later.. the neighbors MUST be getting a little pissed at me by now LOL

EDIT... Just noticed the 65000 setting for the starter.. Will try that too. Thanks

mauryr

If it starts too lean too quickly you might also consider raising the 100% starter power.
See if the temperature rises steadily or spikes up after the starter motor reaches its cap

Jgwright

Well done

Now you have it started you can play with the settings to get them as reliable as you can. The starter should not pulse at all. It should just run up and go. You could try reducing the starter off a little more. If the starter motor is putting too many revs on at the early phase of the start you can try reducing the starter power at ignition to 50 and at ramp to 75 and the 100% starter power to 26,000 rpm.

I would have expected you would need 100% starter power for the end of the start sequence.

Each make of engine will have different parameters depending on the starter motor type, the pump and how much preload the engine is running with. That is why settings for one engine are really only a starting point and rarely transfer directly to another type of engine. Interesting idea to try this engine and I am sure others will have enjoyed your efforts. Be nice to see some video.

John

Vettster

Ok John.. I will try some more settings. I now feel MUCH more confident now that I have seen it start and I can see and understand the changes that I make. Going to mess with a bit more tomorrow when it rains. But for now Im off to fly

Thanks a TON Guys!!!

Trevor

mr_matt

My Feedback: (10)

How did you end up connecting the JetCat thermocouple to the Xicoy?

Great thread BTW.

Vettster

I just by passed the tiny JC circuit board at the end of the thermocouple. There at two tiny wires that are soldered into the board. That is where I solder a servo lead(two outer wires. cut the center one short) and then just plug it into the ECU

Note in my photo the black wire is on the left. It turns out it should gone the right side as that is the neg. I couldnt tell at the time so all I did was turn the futaba plug around in the ECU.. problem solved

Thanks

roger.alli

Well done Trevor. I bet you had a big grin when you first saw "running" displayed on the screen. I think the JC/Xcioy marriage might be a good one.

Thanks for sharing your project here. RCU can be a brilliant forum (at times.) You have had direct assistance from non other than David Gladwin, John Wright, Gasper Edsiel, and others....all freely given. RCU at it's best..

Roger

Vettster

Roger.. Dont forget to add YOUR name to that list of Wise Men

Thanks again for everyone's help!

Trevor

smitty1001

My Feedback: (29)

Trevor,

Sorry I disappeared on you man - got busy with work and haven't been on RCU much - congrats! Very good work! The xicoy is a very flexible ECU, have fun tweaking!

mauryr

Trev, remember to provide proper support to the soldering of the thermocouple wires.
It could shear off otherwise, even with a perfectly balanced rotor

Vettster

No worries Smitty.. Thanks

Yes. I have used shrink tubing around them and the circuit board to hold them in place. Thanks


Well the rain came as called for... so its out to the garage for some final tweaking. And then to install the engine in the F5. I will be cutting most of the wires very short to save more weight. I bought the Fai Bao F5 used. I have already removed most things and reinstalled them cutting back on what was not necessary. You can imagine how every ounce saved on a 60 size airframe is important. I have managed to remove 3/4 lbs thus far!! Saved 280g by eliminating the UAT tank and using paper pleated clunk.(thanks again John for opening my eyes on that)

Check out the size difference of the JC ECU next to the Xicoy ECU. Plus the JC unit has multiple wires coming out of both ends, where the xicoy is all on top making an easy install.

version 5 JC ECU with data board weighs 111grams!! verses the xicoy ECU that weighs only 17grams!!! Yes you can buy the smaller JC Vrs 10 ECU for only $450US!!!!!! or you can buy the Xicoy unit with wires and Hall sensor for about $200....

This brings me to part "B" of the master plan. I did not change to Xicoy just because its smaller, lighter and more programmable... but also because it is much more cost effective. My plan is to buy yet another Xicoy set and install it into another 60size airframe. Being the low budget flyer that I have become... I will now only need one engine to fly 2 or even three airframes saving me thousands! We all know just how quickly an engine can be removed... and I doubt it will take even 3 min to swap this engine from one plane to the next.

Next up.. Convert my P-80se so it can be shared between my Sprint Jet, Avonds F-104 and my Byrons F-16 A saving of at least $4000 there

Cheers guys!

Vettster

Hey guys... I got the START sorted out.. John I tried your last recommendations but she got to hot. So I went back to the settings I had and discover that I was just being to lean on the propane. She wants to start fast and buy adding a bit more gas than I was, I was able to start it three times without the starter re-engaging.

Now on to RUN. I was taking the throttle up to over half and then gently backing it down but not to slow.. and I watched the rpm;s drop below the STOP SPEED of 45,000 and then shut off. It did this twice. The normal idle is 50,000 Now I know it seems obvious to just lower the STOP SPEED RPMs to maybe 40,000.. but I thought id ask first because perhaps its the Deceleration delay that is now set to 10 that is slowing the engine to quickly ?...

Jgwright

Ok looks like the start is sorted. Yes the engine stop is too near the idle. drop it down to 40,000 or 35,000. The ecu will work out the idle position and does not go directly to it. As it is doing its calibration the revs can fall a little below or above the set idle speed and in your case must have just fallen to it. Also the engine will need to learn the full throttle position as well as the idle.

You also need to check that there is enough fuel being delivered to reach full power. You will get a warning about pump power being reached if there is not enough fuel being delivered to reach full rpm.

Don't forget you will need to do a fast run up to full power and a fast deceleration to make sure the accel and decel figures are ok and you do not have a flameout.

Maybe you will do these at the flying field to save disturbing the neighbours!

John

mauryr

45k/50k seems a bit too small a difference.
What is you current "rpm off starter"? Basically anything higher than that is acceptable for a speed low shutdown setting.
I would go out on a limb here, and guess 40k is a good setting for this engine's speed low.

That said, the reason why it went that low is because the ecu is new to this engine/fuel system. It just undershot idle. You need to leave it at idle for a couple seconds (30~1 min) and then slowly bring it up then back down to see if it undershoots again. If it doesn't, you can try doing it more quickly. Then do the same for the top end and you're golden.

The deceleration delay has nothing to do with this: it affects flameouts when going from full power to idle only, but does not affect undershooting idle, once the ecu knows the proper pump settings for it.