Ok guys I competed in NASA Scale for 2 years now and won a lot with a TFG P51 and TFG P40

This year I was thinking about useing my 1/7 F16 or Carf Eurosport.

I love competition and it has made me learn new flying manuvers to keep from getting board of just putting holes in the sky

So I don't think my old manuvers look good with turbine flight. (Chandel, Emblaman, miltary roll)

So what manuvers do you like to use a jet for in NASA Scale or SCALE Master

Hey I got into jets to put holes in the sky HEHE

I have a in-law that flew with NASA, if you dont get any help I might be able to get info from him.

Well you want to keep it easy and do the maneuvers that your plane is good at. Some planes are better then others at certain maneuvers. Also keep in mind if its anything like TopGun you need to fly very SLOW. That makes our jets even harder to fly smooth but if you fly fast you will get down graded.

Here is what I flew at TopGun for example.

1. Takeoff
2. Immelman
3.Inverted pass (starting from inverted)
4.Military break
5.Roll
6.Slow pass (Dirty)
7.Fast pass ( even on the fast pass I was not at full throttle because I have been down graded for flying my high speed pass to fast)
8.Half cuban 8
9.Landing
10.Realism score.

Anything I can do to help let me know. I love flying scale and to me its the most rewarding part of this hobby. Would love to help others get into it.

I don't compete, but I like to fly the jet the way the real one would in a demo. Number #1 error is too much speed.

My suggestion is go to youtube and watch HD videos of the EF flying at RIAT. You will get tons of ideas from there.

Something I've noticed, many pilots fly the manouvers as if they were flying IMAC or pattern. I think that is a bit unrealistic too. Most jets dont roll perfectly axial. I like pitching in a bit of rudder and elvator to barrel that roll a bit when coming out of a 1/2 Cuban 8 and similar. Even when doing "axial rolls", lifting up the nose and "barreling" that nose looks more realistic than shooting for a perfect axial roll (although judges may disagree with me, and in the end, judges rule!).

Also notice on most fighter jet demos, the jet does a manouver at show center, then turn offset 45-60 degrees, start the turnaround manouver (1/2 cuban being the most popular) and slowly return to centerline as they roll out of the manouver.

Good luck , youtube is your best friend! I was lucky that I worked at LM and got to see the Viper practice for airhows frequently. I observed it for many years and learned a thing or two. You have to use inertia, and develop the timing to use it before gaining too much speed. :-)

David

So 2 questions.

When I used a war bird for military roll I would dive a little then pull the nose up and roll then come down a hair and level out. Jets dont need to do that do they?

Also on a loop or embalmen it's supposed to slow down and struggle, how dose that work?

I can give you my opinion, but the best way is to ask the judges of the competition you will be attending if you want to play it safe.

To the first question, yes but I would not expect that change in altitude for an F-16 to be the same as a P-47. It should be slightly noticeable, but not as sharp as an Extra 300.

To the second question, You would do the loop at redcued power, then increase it at the top.............takes practice! Ive never seen a jet do an immelman as such. I think it would be more realistic to start with a reverse immelman, where you will be at a good slow speed at the top (inverted for a two/three seconds), then roll back up right, keep slow/medium speed, roll back inverted, stay inverted a couple of seconds and do the immelman.

mikes68,
Go to the Intl Jet Model Committee's website at www.ijmc.ner and Scroll to the Documents section. Open the 2014 Flight Diagrams document and find 65 maneuvers for jet model aircraft. Note that some of these are restricted to Non-aerobatic types such as passenger jets, ie, B-777, Lear, G-4 etc. You should select 9 maneuvers that satisfy the requirements or NASA Scale or AMA RC Scale-the 10th maneuver is generally called "Realism". Note that Gunradd's maneuvers were specific to the class he competed in Top Gun and may not be applicable to NASA Scale or AMA RC Scale rules. Good luck and let us know how you make out.

Rgds,
Art ARRI , IJMC Certified Judge

.

Thanks for posting this. Can you describe how you do the turn arounds? In other words, from what direction are each of these maneuvers coming and how do you get turned around (if needed) from one maneuver to the next?

Thanks

oh and where is the horizontal figure 8? I thought that was mandatory. Hard to do too, at least for me.

You mean the horrible 8

If you are going to fly an f-16 then go watch a real f-16 demo in person and pay attention to all the finer details you are asking about it will pay off. The videos give you an idea but you need the big picture. Flying scale is a lot of fun and is very satisfying when done right.

I thought that was mandatory. Hard to do too, at least for me.

Allot of scale competitions don't require this maneuver anymore. To much traffic at topgun. At the scale masters event I attend down here they don't let you do it because their is not enough room in the flying box. But World jet masters and pretty sure scale masters events at other Fields do require it.

You may find the IJMC documentation helpful as it includes 3d diagrams of the manoeuvres.

http://www.ijmc.net/documents/docs/2014_diagrams.pdf

John

Hello Matt.
The events I attend you need to call out your maneuvers and announce Beginning and Ending at the start and end of the maneuver. Generally I do all of mine up wind a little bit outside the runways edge. Depending on the maneuver and daytime conditions before the flight I might place it in a different spot.

For instance if the sun is going to be in a bad spot during a immelemen I will tell the judges before the flight I am going to offset this maneuver to the right to avoid the sun. This also helps you because Its allot harder to see the exact starting point and ending point so it can be esier to get a better score but it also makes it easier for the judges to see heading changes. So say you have a strong crosswind then this might hurt you offsetting it if you dont put enough rudder into it.

On something simple like a roll on a normal day can be challenging during scale competition. First you want to bring the nose up slightly then do slow airleron roll with the aircraft being perfectly inverted right in front of you. You need to finish at the exact same altitude you started at and the roll needs to be the same exact speed the entire time. On one day you got the timing down then the next day you have a strong headwind and now you end up rolling to early. So be aware of the winds because they will change everything you do.

For my inverted pass I start from inverted meaning before I get to the runway my aircraft is already upside down and aligned perfect a little out side the runways edge. I tell the judge begin when about 300 feet from show center and count out loud in seconds (1-2-3) until I hit show center then begin the count again (3-2-1) and call maneuver complete. After I call complete and fly in a straight line for a few seconds I then flip the aircraft back over. This keeps the distance of the manuver the same on both sides. You also do this on other passes that are straight like a dirty pass or high speed pass.

Even something like a simple military break can get complicated. You need to begin this maneuver right in front of you and do a perfect arch when the aircraft is at 180 degrees it needs to again be aligned with you when you level the wings. Now for my plane I enter the maneuver pretty slow but advance the throttle to full power right before breaking. This gives the illusion that I am not flying to fast and also lets me get the afterburner lights turned on when the airplane breaks away from the judges. After I am halfway through the turn I reduce throttle to about half throttle so the aircraft slows down some. This helps in keeping the aircraft turning at the same rate of speed. If I kept speeding up it would be tough and I would need to pull more and more elevator and the aircraft would exit at to high of speed. But this is all related to my aircraft and my or may not apply to your aircraft.

For maneuvers where I climb pretty high or if im going to end up flying against the flight line traffic I do these about 40 feet from the runways edge for two reasons. One the judges sometimes have some type of sunshade over their head and if you do these right next to the runway they cant see it. This will effect your score. You always want to make it easy on the judges. Number 2 is when your doing say a half cuban 8 you have less of a chance hitting opposing traffic in the middle of the flying area.

SPOTTER!! this can make or break your flight. Make sure you find a good spotter at the begging of the event and try and keep the same guy for the whole event. Have a copy of your maneuver list for him so he can call them out for you. Try and practice some before the event starts with your spotter. Get your spotter to call out the maneuvers for you or I just like them to remind me and I call it out. At most events the spotter can also call beginning and complete for the maneuver. For some people this is a big help because of the high stress situation. A good spotter will also count your seconds for you during straight maneuvers down the runway for the timing.

I had the pleasure of doing some practice flights with Jim McEwen at TopGun and he really helped me out allot. Their is so much to scale flying and the best thing to do it talk to the guys that have been their done that. That is the best part of an event like topgun is being able to get advice from people like the entire world jet masters team like Andy,Jim and Jason or other guys like Ali Machinchy Peter Goldsmith and others like daddy Jack Diaz! These guys are a wealth of information and love helping fellow scale modelers.

Really great info here on competing in RC scale with a jet. My best advice is to actually enter and compete first hand as experience is the best teacher. Once you accept the challenge, the rewards will follow. Again, good luck and let us know how you make out.
Rgds,
Art ARRO

Mikes68charger, go to this website. http://www.usscalemasters.org/forums...etails;lid=135

at the bottom of this page there is a pdf download. That is a good read for you. I compete with my F-16 and will be attending the masters this year in Houston, Tx in October.

Steven

Here I am at the Scale Masters Qualifier in Mesa, AZ with my F-16.


Talking to my dad about the flight we were getting ready for.


This doesnt happen very often but I was fortunate enough to be "hangered" right next to the Wright Flyer model and was able to get some pics of us together.


Hope you enjoy the pics

Steven

Greetings,

The selection of maneuvers will depend on a variety of factors which include:
1) The rules of the particular event. Top Gun, ScaleMasters, and IJMC all have slightly different rules
2) The flying field as runway size, wind direction, and any obstacles
3) The jet itself and it's characteristics
4) Your personal likes/dislikes and comfort zone

Below, I'll give some examples as to how these can affect your selections.

Generally speaking, all events consist of ten maneuvers including flight realism which is judged over the entire flight. The mandatory maneuvers are:
- take off
- landing
- high speed pass
- low speed pass
- flight realism
ScaleMasters also has the Horizontal 8

So that leaves 4-5 remaining maneuvers.

IJMC requires that each of the remaining maneuvers be selected one from each group (one from Group 1, one from Group 2, etc) and these groups and diagrams can be download from their site. Top Gun and ScaleMasters are a bit more open in terms of selection but there are specific limitations. For example, you can only do one CONTINUOUS roll maneuver (excluding the slow roll). Consult the rules. Top Gun allows a mechanical option (eg tank/bomb drop) but ScaleMasters requires that the mechanical option is performed as part of another maneuver and they are scored together. Details on how each maneuver is performed vary per event. Example: on the slow pass, some require you to start the gear retract sequence as you pass show center while you leave the gear down for the entire pass at other events.

My maneuver list at Top Gun last year was:
1) Take Off
trim pass - a great way to take a lap, make sure everything is trimmed, gives an idea of the wind direction & speed at altitude
2) Tank Drop
3) Ascending Airshow Break
4) Roll
5) High Speed Pass
6) Low Speed Pass
7 & 8) Touch and Go
9) Landing
10) Flight Realism

I was flying a BVM Rafale which is so very predicable to land and easy to take off so I selected the Touch and Go as it let me get judged for two take offs and two landings. This worked great right up until the last round which occurred during strong/gusty 90 degree crosswinds blowing in your face. Jack Diaz advised me not to do a T&G but I tried it anyway and got burned. The winds were very strong on the approach and I had to fight it down. I flared with the jet over the centerline and a strong gust hit and pushed the jet towards the kill line and judges. The runway at Top Gun is a "typical" width and the judges/pilots are at the edge of the runway. When the wind blew the jet off the centerline and towards us, I had no choice but to drop it to the runway. This broke the nose steering cable, I lost steering, and aborted the remainder of the flight. Up to that point it was great (78/80 points) but not having the last two maneuvers gave me 78/100 and I dropped from 6th to 12th. Jack was right (he usually is).

This year, with the Gripen which has a horrible take off, my selected maneuvers were
1) Take off
trim pass
2) Tank Drop
3) Ascending Airshow Break
4) Roll
5) Two Point Roll - plane looks awesome on an inverted pass
6) Immelmann - my least favorite maneuver - I hate being inverted-high-close in as I find it easier to be disoriented
7) High Speed Pass
8) Low Speed Pass - done as late as possible as the plane is lighter due to fuel burned and you can leave the gear down since landing is next
9) Landing
10) Flight Realism

Each of these maneuvers has their own challenges. Maneuvers have to be centered unless you have the freedom (and a good reason) to call an offset. They must all start/finish parallel to the runway, and at the same height. Turns must be round/consistent. The high speed and low speed should ideally be flown (according to Jack who is always right) through exactly the same line through the sky. Your caller can make you or break you and practicing together is key to determine who calls starts/finishes, the counts, etc. The Gripen is a short winged delta so it is harder to get the wings exactly level than a Fouga for example. During the Immelmann, a wings level error will result in the plane tracking in or out in the climb. Rudder correction will help but it may not be enough. When the plane is almost at the top of the half loop, the spotter can tell the pilot to half roll to the left or right to correct the track and bring the plane back on the parallel line.

The bottom line is practice, practice, practice. Be critical of yourself. Try to fly PERFECT. At Top Gun, you need an average score of about 9.5+ to be in the Top 3, and 9.25 to be in the Top Ten.

Regards,

Jim

Jim, this is probably the best thing anyone can do to get ready for a contest. And I cant stress this enough. Practice, Practice. When you wake up on saturday and its a little breezy, GO PRACTICE. Contest weather is usually windy and usually crosswind. Good luck

Steven

Great post Jim!! I cant thank you enough for helping me at TopGun this year.

On a side note Frank Tiano's new Event RedFlag later this year is going to be very hard.... The maneuvers are based on a K factor so the harder the maneuver the more points its worth. Also you must do a turn around manuver at each end ( like a half cuban 8 or split S) and then do another maneuver down wind about 60 yards out from the flight line. This competition is based on flying more then scale since all you have to show is that its a real scheme on a real plane. This event sounds like a challenge for sure and totally different from other scale jet events.

Kris,

You're welcome. I enjoyed helping out you and Barry at Top Gun. The camaraderie is one of the greatest aspects of this hobby.

Red Flag sounds interesting and I hope it is a great event. The rules sound a bit more like those of a pattern event than a scale event. The use of K-factors should result in a wider selection of maneuvers by the contestants which will make the event more visually appealing for both spectators and judges.

Jim

What's your opinion when someone on the upwind making a turn to the left makes a 330 degree roll to the right and then enters the turn? Or maybe a positive g roll to the right finishing 30 degree bank to the left and then start the turn?

I have seen someone doing this on Top Gun and it was nicely done and the realism score were very high but I am not sure if this would be true for all kind of planes. What's your opinion on this?

Gabriel