skywarrior

Gaspar,
Thank you for that as I was trying to figure out where the Hall effect sensor was anyway.
I assume it rotates on the shaft just clear of the board.
To reverse the rotation of the motor is it correct to reverse the cable pins to the controller or does one have to reverse the board on the motor mount. On the original board it burnt out (like a servo set up ) if you just reversed the cable. You had to unsolder the board and rotate it.

Sorry for the pedantic questions but its why I bought 10 boards for 9 motors !!

Does the Aitech version need the magnet as it appears to work on "over current" trigger to stop the travel. If the magnet is fitted however there is a small magnet on the shaft of the motor which would put the new Xicoy off center. Does this have to be ground away to allow a concentric fit for the new Xicoy versio?

David

ija

David,

The version you received has sensor as SMD component and therefore you will need the bigger magnet like shown in Gaspar's picture. (Mine was early version with through-hole sensor and with such a sensor it's possible to utilize the original tiny magnet as shown at the picture in my earlier post). you need to carefully remove the original very tiny magnet and then install the bigger magnet like instructed by Gaspar.

Rotation direction is changed simply by rotating the cable. The original board behaved like the servo and therefore the board had to be rotated but Gaspar's solution is not behaving like a servo. There is counter signal in the middle and + & - on the other wires. Therefore rotating the connector will change the rotation direction.

Airtech Germany gearbox is so weak that you definetly want to activate the sensor. You will quickly destroy mechanically your gears without the counter feature. Be very careful during the setup phase also!

BR,
Ilkka

skywarrior

Ilkka,
Thank you for the info. I have tried one unit without the new magnet and it stops at the end point but then a second later flicks again for a split second and stops.
I will remove the tiny shaft magnet and mount the large one.
I understand now re reversal which is very convenient as before I had to match nose and main gear re spares and spare units which I carry all the time since we travel over 80 miles to fly at good sites here.
I cannot take any chances of malfunction situations which is in part my reason for changing to this system. However Gaspars unit does not appear to run the original boards ? So I plan to bench test a system them I will have to change all boards to new versions or I may get stuck between versions re spares.
The other reason for changing is the gyro which I am keen to use in conjunction with my Cortex main gyro on other functions plus a nose door which so far I have not fitted because of complications of not having enough outlets on my Comp SRS unit.
I did look at offset programming but it was too tricky for me with the three pos switch for gear.

Another important question is "Do I need a three position switch for the gear now"?

When you say be careful on set up can you advise me on any detail in doing this please.
Am I to assume that you now setup the up/down positions in a different manner to the "Plug and play original" which found end points and neutral points on its own.
I know this is another stream of questions but they are very important to me as I have two complete CARF Vipers with e gears and a spare set of gear for standby when flying far away. I also have fuselage spares in my roof which is another story.
I appreciate your help
David
In fairness to Erwin his gear box and controllers have worked ok for about 100 flights its security of use and other features which have lead me along this path

ija

Hi David,

Sorry I missed your questions earlier... When the movement stops due to current restriction gears will be "de-pressured" by flicking motor to reverse direction quickly thus the short pulse you see.

The original boards of Airtech are actually servo drivers and Gaspar's gear doesn't need it. Xicoy encoder board is much simplier and you actually want to have the encoder included. Erwin's gear box may work okey if you had encoder in use but if you trust on current restriction only you will ruin the gearbox. The reason why I said "be careful" is that make sure you use low enough current limit while doing the setup and also avoid driving gears until current restriction kicks in: it's fairly easy to destroy the gearbox. Setup process goes this way in nutshell:
1) set very low current limit - just enough to reliably move the gear while benchtesting
2) set small amount to counter value
3) use flat screwdriver to move the gear mechanics to one end - Say "DOWN" - do not connect the motor yet to the mechanics
4) make sure your Xicoy LGC15 controller is also on "DOWN" position
5) flip gears switch UP and check the engine startst to run to right direction to really move the mechanics also "UP"
6) If it's rotating to wrong direction flip the engine cord connector 180degrees
7) flip gears switch DOWN and check again engine starts to run right direction
8) now you should have LGC15 in "DOWN" status and gear mechanics in "DOWN" too. It's ok to connect engine to the gear mechanics
9) flip switch UP and you will see the gears move partially UP (depending on the counter value)
10) flip switch DOWN and gears return to full DOWN position
11) increase counter value and do 9) and 10) again. Do this until you have full travel to UP direction. Engine should stop due to the counter value not due to current limit. (AND increase the counter value ONLY when you have the gears mechanically in one end. ie in DOWN status in this case since otherwise you will hit mechanical limits while getting back from UP to DOWN) Also if you use high voltage it might be good idea not to do too many iterations in a row because it might overheat your engine.

You won't need 3-pos switch anymore. 2-pos is more suitable for Xicoy system: you want to have UP & Down only

hopefully this helps - Sorry for not spotting your response earlier.

Regards, Ilkka

skywarrior

IIkka,
Thank you very much for the reply it has been extremely useful and I have now understood most of the mysteries involved here.
I use the E gear mot/gbox and there does not seem to be a published limit to the motor current. I have mounted the magnets and adjusted the encoder counter as suggested but whilst my start position is obviously pretty much spot on at all times I have to differing readings for the end. I have set the end position to 10500 but the pulse indicator below reads 8500 when the traveller stops short of the UP end position. I assume this will be load on the system and causing a current overload stop, so do I increase the motor current and what to ? I am bench testing this without gear legs attached and just the trunnion block in place and the motor current set to 2 amps. What is your motor current set to and pulse length. It needs to go about another 5-6 mm to end position and lock in the Up position.
Once you have set on unit I suspect all others are very close to the same setting ?
I have broken one g/box I suspect so far and wonder of spares are available and where ?
I am in the position that I will have to alter six units as I have two Vipers and a spare set of U/C parts as the controller does not operate the original board.
I am Ok with this once I have a proven bench system so I need to get this set up correctly.
Thank you once again for invaluable help.
I would suggest that Gaspar put your instructions as an addendum to his manual as it is most necessary i.m.o.
Regards
David
PS the motor gearbox available on Gaspars site does not look as if the mounting plate is compatible

ija

David,

Nice to hear I'm able to help You.

While setting the system up it's vital that you have a solid reference point for all movements. So while adjusting the counter values always return gears first to DOWN position (as it was the position that you moved the gear with screw driver method). If counter was the limiting factor then this happens automatically just by flipping the gear switch. BUT if you had physical limitation and current limiter kicked in then the motor gave automatically short release pulse in order to relax the gear box tension. In that case you would need to move gears back to full DOWN position with screw driver before trying next value. In order to avoid this manual work the motor current should be so high that it reliably moves the gears when free to move but still much much less than stall current to protect the gearbox. Every motor & egearbox combination of Erwin seems to be different beast though: for one 0.7A was enough, for one 0.9A and the worst one required 1A in my case! 2Amps of yours sounds very very high to me for testing. You may have different motors than I received! And I used 2S LiPo, if you use lower voltage then the currents may be different.

(for actual use I have 1.5Amps at the moment but I may increase it little bit just to be absolutely sure engines won't stop due to flying condition and air pressure. The importance is that the current limit is less than the stall current. with home view of LGC15 you will see persentage bar of used current for every gear (if your limit is 2A then 50% view here means that motor eats 1Amps): I have setuped so that normal use is 40-60% of the current limit. You can use this main menu view as a hint if your gears or gearboxes have some mechanical stress point. Unfortunately I'm not aware how much the motor stall current actually is. Erwin said that current of the motor is 200mA but he doesn't understand about the electronics: I assume this is noload current meaning that stall current is probably somewhere slightly above 2Amps. Just guessing based on some other motors that I have seen. So at least for setup process I would not go too much beyond 2AMPS for limiter! Gaspar, if you hear?, You know motors better, do you have any idea how much current setting could be for actual current limiter when we have correct counter values already set?)

Because every gear of Erwin's (that I received) seemed different kind I have been hesitating to give any fixed/recommended values... Anyway: I have counter value 9200 with Xicoy magnet. With that value there is little bit extra room still in mechanics so the gears are not hitting the wall due to residual momemtum and I think this saves the gearbox little bit. You know the counter value is not too high when you shortly see bigger value before the motor stops. I see typically ~9240...9250 when it stops. This is due to residual momentum of the engine and natural delay in control loop. If your system stops at 8500 with 2A current then I would be worried about the condition of the threaded rod. Check with screw driver if the physical tension increases too much. Like said I had 3 different control boards delivered by Erwin and all motors have kind of big variation in currents so it's difficult to say if you have same components like I received for CARF ViperJet. sigh.

I'm also worried about the spare parts... I guess the only source is Erwin and I'm not too willing to pay his prices as he wanted 50EURs for single burned controller board while he refused warranty replacement. Nasty price providing it should have been really covered by the warranty. So if someone need all the controller boards it would be 150EUR + shipping. Much better solution from Xicoy available practically with same cost! (not sure if Erwin would sell anything to me though... ). I guess the easiest component to destroy is the brass traveller and it's rather easy to do by itself too. Gearboxes are nasty - should find Erwin's source: I'm sure he is not doing those.

BR,
Ilkka

skywarrior

IIkka,
Thank once again for the help.
I have reduced the motor current to 1.5.amp as the 2 amp was a guess. The working load runs around 20 in the green which is pretty low and good I suspect. It then rises to red but not yellow at the end of travel. Hopefully this may prove ok when legs are attached and flying !
I have made new phosphor bronze travellers which at present seem to be Ok and also replaced the screw thread with higher quality stainless version which is much straighter. On the whole I have been quite please with the system overall but do not want to risk this lovely aircraft with a component failure due to over stress. I am running 2S with a regulator.

I also like the idea of the gyro on the nose wheel and door since I am running a Comp SRS with a Cortex I have run out of plugs (14) having fed the Cortex only signal wires throughout on all services which then does not allow any load through the Cortex. I have tried setting up the S Bus mode but without success. I have allocated the same channels in this mode but dont seem to get any signal through, also the main screen defaults to brake screen and I am not sure what I am doing wrong. I dont need to plug into the 7008 rx in any way do I ?
Thank you once again
David

ija

David,

Like said, I'm not absolutely sure if the current I'm using is enough for all flying conditions in your setup. It also depends on the mechanical friction of your system. So you need to evaluate final amperage limit setting once you get your counter working reliable way: then the current limiter is more like a backup solution if something goes wrong. Personally I wouldn't go beyond 2A without better knowledge about the motor. If you are bold enough you could also test the stall current by preventing movement with your hand but I don't dare to do it as it will cause excessive stress to gearbox and like you know spare supply may not work for me... Then just set the final amperage limit to something less than the tested stall current.

Regarding to SBUS... I've used it only with SBUS (ie you must have 7008SB receiver in B or D mode). Gaspar is not explicit regarding to SBUS2 support so I didn't even try it (SBUS2 might also work but if not designed for SBUS2 it might cause nasty surprises when telemetry sensors are present). Connect your SBUS wire only (channel "8/SB" of 7008SB to the GearIN connector) and leave other input signals unconnected). And once you select the SBUS input and associated channels on the LGC15 menu it should work easily.

I think main screen shows brake & status screen always when gears DOWN. When you command gears UP, screen shows current info bars.

Ilkka

skywarrior

IIkka,
I have now taken the plunge and modified all units. I programmed the system with encoder 9800 and motors 1.9 amp and in the workshop this gave travel via encoder about 3mm short either end of the rail and trunion block. This was tested many times and worked well.
At the flying field I had 5 successful flight with no apparent gear issues.
However when dismantling the plane I noticed the gear was hanging about 4 mm down on inner end and the same each side.
I then went to try and rectify by increasing encoder value which now stands at 13000 !! and then increase motor to 2 amp cut off.

The gear still stops in the same position (hanging 3-4 mm down). I am not sure what to do next as the motor 2 amp value looks as though it should be increased as the encoder value has not been able to travel to extra between 9800 and the now 13000. The working load for the motors is appx 40 -50 % before over current values come in.
There is a yellow bar and a short red bar to the end and stop.

Any ideas welcome.
Gyro works well

Turbotronic

Measuring current as a method of detecting end stop or overload is the wrong approach. Look at implementing Delta Velocity...
Andre

ija

David,

You need to find encoder value that is just little bit less than the physical movement. IF the gear stops due to current limit the controller will give short back rotating pulse to unload the gearbox tension! This back rotating pulse lenght depends on your "Unload T." value at motor menu (very small value unless you have changed it). It's well possible that you see this happening and the 3-4mm is the lenght of the back rotating pulse of your setup. You might see the gap gets smaller if you decread Unload value to very small <0.1s. Do you hear the reversed movement after the actual movement has stopped? It's very clear sign that you hit the current limit.

Try to set encoder counter target value back to ~9200. And use screwdriver to move the gear physically to one end before you attach the motor: You must decrease the target counter value so much that it starts to be the limiting factor for the movement. By doing this the gearbox won't hit current restriction and it wont reverse short period due to it. 9800 could be too much and you hit always the current limit and then long unload pulse causes the 3-4mm gap. (and when you have this 3-4mm initial gap even right counter value causes the gear to hit always the physical limit. - you need to "zero" the situation between the tests: get the gear physically to one end always before trying the test again).

However, if you really see current limit to really engage 3-4mm before the end of the movement then you need to verify the gear mechanics don't have any physical problems causing extensive friction.

Turbotronic, The system relies on counter value (motor revolutions) which works nicely when target counter value is set correctly and gear is physically aligned. Current restriction is just backup safety feature. I find it rather difficult to follow delta velocity of the gear as it may change a lot due to gear geometry and motor strenght. (gear comes more easily out than goes in, and weight of the tire have different kind of impact depending on the orientation etc).

David, hopefully this helped.

Ilkka

skywarrior

IIKa
I sent this to Gaspar and it may also help diagnose my problem


The motor current is set to 2.6 for the mains do you know the max ?
The encoder to 11500 but the pulse shows appx 9000 pulses used before cut off.
The motor % used during run is app. 30%
The cut off current is at app. 80% then into the red after that in the UP position.
I have been unable to get a consistent up/down locked cycle until these settings. Do these look OK to you re cu off current and the fact the pulses shown used are shorter than the set 11500 asked for.
Does this mean that I am relying on cut off current alone and not having the safety of encoded pulses to stop the travel
Time is 8 secs max

ija

David,



I increased my current setting eventually to 2A and it works very nicely so I think 2.6A is more than enough. I don't know what is the max. though. but since you see current cut off happening the value is safe (as being less than stall current).

I think this is very clear indication that you see only current cut off. 11500 is way too much for the retracts. Since you see the value of 9000 before cut off it indicates that values near to 9000 are right for you also (and I'm rather sure you have same mechanics as I have). I have 9200 as counter target value and it works well. Just make sure you don't have mechanical offset when you attach the motor to the mechanics.

Ilkka

skywarrior

IIkka
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